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Post by swurveman on Feb 15, 2019 11:07:28 GMT -6
Even though I am getting out of commercial recording, I still am going to do my own recording including drums. Currently, I have a 24' x 24' x 8' space, which I've used as a single room facility for recording and mixing. I found that I disliked a dual purpose room. So, I'm looking to build a current control room space out of the existing space. Unfortunately, I have a long, finished HVAC Duct Chase running down the middle of my room, which minimizes my choices. To make matters worse, the duct chase is 7 feet wide through half of it and 4 feet wide through the other half. Disclaimer: Jeff Hedback designed my current space. So, if your reply is to call Jeff, it's been done 5 times already. If you're still interested, read on..... My choices are, in areas where I don't have to deal with the duct chase: Smaller overall Control room: 9'7" x 8'7" x 8' Smaller width, but long length control room: 22'3" x 6'6" x 8' If you have a small control room and have any advice on my two choices, I'd really appreciate your thoughts. EDIT: I ran the two different sizes through Bob Golds Room Modes Calculator. The square one ( 9'7" x 8'7" x 8') is the first result, the longer narrower one (22'3" x 6'6" x 8') is the second. Neither is a smooth curve, but neither looks like the "bad" result. I assume that the second result (the longer room) is better as it doesn't have that broader triangular peak. Attachments:
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Post by indiehouse on Feb 15, 2019 11:17:33 GMT -6
Don’t do it. I’ve had a control room 8x15x7. I’d opt for a bigger, dual purpose space every time over going back to that size.
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Post by notneeson on Feb 15, 2019 11:22:47 GMT -6
Even though I am getting out of commercial recording, I still am going to do my own recording including drums. Currently, I have a 24' x 24' x 8' space, which I've used as a single room facility for recording and mixing. I found that I disliked a dual purpose room. So, I'm looking to build a current control room space out of the existing space. Unfortunately, I have a long, finished HVAC Duct Chase running down the middle of my room, which minimizes my choices. To make matters worse, the duct chase is 7 feet wide through half of it and 4 feet wide through the other half. My choices are in areas where I don't have to deal with the duct chase: Smaller overall Control room: 9'7" x 8'7" x 8' Smaller width, but long length control room: 22'3" x 6'6" x 8' If you have a small control room and have any advice on my two choices, I'd really appreciate your thoughts. I did have a smallish control room at my previous place, they had had Bob Hodas tune the room and it was pretty decent. From everything I have heard, including a friend who is working with him now, it would be well worth the money to get a design from Jeff Hedback. Also, for what it's worth I have the Rod Gervais book and his approach is (more or less) to section off a corner of the entire space into a control room and essentially make the original (90 degree) corner into a big bass trap. Also, my little project space that I share now is one room with a vaulted ceiling. I definitely miss having a control room.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 15, 2019 11:25:48 GMT -6
Don’t do it. I’ve had a control room 8x15x7. I’d opt for a bigger, dual purpose space every time over going back to that size. Why? I find it extremely difficult getting a full band picture of the finished product while tracking in my space with headphones. I spent $3,000.00+ with a very well respected acoustician to try to make my mix space better, but can never hear things like reverb well enough, because it's still too reverberant. When I go to my small living room with a heavy carpet I can hear reverb beautifully. I have at least 40 4" bats of OCF 703 placed by the acoustician and I still am unhappy. So, I really would like to know why it's so bad to have a smaller, isolated control room.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 15, 2019 11:30:42 GMT -6
Even though I am getting out of commercial recording, I still am going to do my own recording including drums. Currently, I have a 24' x 24' x 8' space, which I've used as a single room facility for recording and mixing. I found that I disliked a dual purpose room. So, I'm looking to build a current control room space out of the existing space. Unfortunately, I have a long, finished HVAC Duct Chase running down the middle of my room, which minimizes my choices. To make matters worse, the duct chase is 7 feet wide through half of it and 4 feet wide through the other half. My choices are in areas where I don't have to deal with the duct chase: Smaller overall Control room: 9'7" x 8'7" x 8' Smaller width, but long length control room: 22'3" x 6'6" x 8' If you have a small control room and have any advice on my two choices, I'd really appreciate your thoughts. I did have a smallish control room at my previous place, they had had Bob Hodas tune the room and it was pretty decent. From everything I have heard, including a friend who is working with him now, it would be well worth the money to get a design from Jeff Hedback. Also, for what it's worth I have the Rod Gervais book and his approach is (more or less) to section off a corner of the entire space into a control room and essentially make the original (90 degree) corner into a big bass trap. Also, my little project space that I share now is one room with a vaulted ceiling. I definitely miss having a control room. Thanks for your reply. What were the dimensions of your room? I have the Rod Gervais book and the Alton Everest. Some things like floor to ceiling corner absorption (Superchunk) and first reflection points seem pretty standard and diy. I would need advice on diffusion and ceiling treatment.
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Post by notneeson on Feb 15, 2019 11:32:14 GMT -6
Don’t do it. I’ve had a control room 8x15x7. I’d opt for a bigger, dual purpose space every time over going back to that size. Why? I find it extremely difficult getting a full band picture of the finished product while tracking in my space with headphones. I spent $3,000.00+ to try to make my mix space better, but can never hear things like reverb well enough, because it's still too reverberant. When I go to my small living room with a heavy carpet I can hear reverb beautifully. I have at least 40 4" bats of OCF 703 placed by a very well regarded acoustician and I still am unhappy. So, I really would like to know why it's so bad to have a smaller, isolated control room. It's not. It's just one of many compromises most studio owners will have to make. Really understanding what you're capturing is so critical and easy to screw up (ever not notice that the drummer bumped the D12 45 degrees off intended placement until after you've got keepers on two songs? I have). Build the studio that works for you.
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Post by indiehouse on Feb 15, 2019 11:36:58 GMT -6
Don’t do it. I’ve had a control room 8x15x7. I’d opt for a bigger, dual purpose space every time over going back to that size. Why? I find it extremely difficult getting a full band picture of the finished product while tracking in my space with headphones. I spent $3,000.00+ with a very well respected acoustician to try to make my mix space better, but can never hear things like reverb well enough, because it's still too reverberant. When I go to my small living room with a heavy carpet I can hear reverb beautifully. I have at least 40 4" bats of OCF 703 placed by the acoustician and I still am unhappy. So, I really would like to know why it's so bad to have a smaller, isolated control room. I suppose that’s just my preference/experience. Do what works for you. Bass response was all over the place in that small of a room. I had it filled with 703 and bass traps. It also got real toasty.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 15, 2019 11:39:34 GMT -6
Why? I find it extremely difficult getting a full band picture of the finished product while tracking in my space with headphones. I spent $3,000.00+ to try to make my mix space better, but can never hear things like reverb well enough, because it's still too reverberant. When I go to my small living room with a heavy carpet I can hear reverb beautifully. I have at least 40 4" bats of OCF 703 placed by a very well regarded acoustician and I still am unhappy. So, I really would like to know why it's so bad to have a smaller, isolated control room. It's not. It's just one of many compromises most studio owners will have to make. Really understanding what you're capturing is so critical and easy to screw up (ever not notice that the drummer bumped the D12 45 degrees off intended placement until after you've got keepers on two songs? I have). Build the studio that works for you. Thanks. We listen through speakers and have a sound in our head, but trying to sort that all out via headphones when the band is playing was very difficult for me. So, since I am going to be recording and producing my own songs with a sound I want, I need some isolation to get a sense of how close I am during the recording phase..
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Post by swurveman on Feb 15, 2019 11:42:15 GMT -6
Why? I find it extremely difficult getting a full band picture of the finished product while tracking in my space with headphones. I spent $3,000.00+ with a very well respected acoustician to try to make my mix space better, but can never hear things like reverb well enough, because it's still too reverberant. When I go to my small living room with a heavy carpet I can hear reverb beautifully. I have at least 40 4" bats of OCF 703 placed by the acoustician and I still am unhappy. So, I really would like to know why it's so bad to have a smaller, isolated control room. I suppose that’s just my preference/experience. Do what works for you. Bass response was all over the place in that small of a room. I had it filled with 703 and bass traps. It also got real toasty. Thanks. My studio is in my basement and is very well ventilated. Living in Indiana, where it's cold as hell for the winter months, I would prefer my room to be warmer. Would you mind sharing how you treated your space?
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Post by notneeson on Feb 15, 2019 11:43:33 GMT -6
I did have a smallish control room at my previous place, they had had Bob Hodas tune the room and it was pretty decent. From everything I have heard, including a friend who is working with him now, it would be well worth the money to get a design from Jeff Hedback. Also, for what it's worth I have the Rod Gervais book and his approach is (more or less) to section off a corner of the entire space into a control room and essentially make the original (90 degree) corner into a big bass trap. Also, my little project space that I share now is one room with a vaulted ceiling. I definitely miss having a control room. Thanks for your reply. What were the dimensions of your room? I have the Rod Gervais book and the Alton Everest. Some things like floor to ceiling corner absorption (Superchunk) and first reflection points seem pretty standard and diy. I would need advice on diffusion and ceiling treatment. Man, I am trying to find pics online but the internet is not helping me out. Add to which, I am bad at guessing dimensions. Gonna say more like 12x7x8, speakers firing across that 7' dimension (not ideal). That 12 could be more, or less. I'm hopeless. Build out was done before I piled on.
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Post by indiehouse on Feb 15, 2019 11:45:20 GMT -6
I suppose that’s just my preference/experience. Do what works for you. Bass response was all over the place in that small of a room. I had it filled with 703 and bass traps. It also got real toasty. Thanks. My studio is in my basement and is very well ventilated. Living in Indiana, where it's cold as hell for the winter months, I would prefer my room to be warmer. Would you mind sharing how you treated your space? 2” and 4” 703 panels at 1st and 2nd reflection points, 4” 703 cloud above mix position, panels along front and rear walls, floor to ceiling corner traps in all four corners and portable corner traps along the floor to wall corners. I was in a basement (in Ohio) as well.
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Post by notneeson on Feb 15, 2019 11:46:20 GMT -6
It's not. It's just one of many compromises most studio owners will have to make. Really understanding what you're capturing is so critical and easy to screw up (ever not notice that the drummer bumped the D12 45 degrees off intended placement until after you've got keepers on two songs? I have). Build the studio that works for you. Thanks. We listen through speakers and have a sound in our head, but trying to sort that all out via headphones when the band is playing was very difficult for me. So, since I am going to be recording and producing my own songs with a sound I want, I need some isolation to get a sense of how close I am during the recording phase.. Right, so here's the faustian bargain: you may make the sound of your live room suffer, to accomodate better knowing what you're getting. But I do think that's always the case with home studios. I say this empathetically, not trying to be a naysayer at all.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 15, 2019 11:47:32 GMT -6
Thanks for your reply. What were the dimensions of your room? I have the Rod Gervais book and the Alton Everest. Some things like floor to ceiling corner absorption (Superchunk) and first reflection points seem pretty standard and diy. I would need advice on diffusion and ceiling treatment. Man, I am trying to find pics online but the internet is not helping me out. Add to which, I am bad at guessing dimensions. Gonna say more like 12x7x8, speakers firing across that 7' dimension (not ideal). That 12 could be more, or less. I'm hopeless. Build out was done before I piled on. Thanks. Yeah, it's more ideal (or so the internet says) to fire down the longest part of the room. If you have pics, I'd love to see them. Do you remember how you (or the original builder) treated it acoustically?
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Post by swurveman on Feb 15, 2019 11:54:09 GMT -6
Thanks. We listen through speakers and have a sound in our head, but trying to sort that all out via headphones when the band is playing was very difficult for me. So, since I am going to be recording and producing my own songs with a sound I want, I need some isolation to get a sense of how close I am during the recording phase.. Right, so here's the faustian bargain: you may make the sound of your live room suffer, to accomodate better knowing what you're getting. But I do think that's always the case with home studios. I say this empathetically, not trying to be a naysayer at all. Thanks. The smaller control room would be in the right back corner. It would actually be easier for an assistant to walk around for placing room mics, because my large desk is facing the drum space right now. I know what you're saying though. I would kill for a big drum tracking room with high ceilings with isolation booths for amps and vocals and a separate control room. We do what we can afford and make the best of it.
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Post by notneeson on Feb 15, 2019 11:55:18 GMT -6
Man, I am trying to find pics online but the internet is not helping me out. Add to which, I am bad at guessing dimensions. Gonna say more like 12x7x8, speakers firing across that 7' dimension (not ideal). That 12 could be more, or less. I'm hopeless. Build out was done before I piled on. Thanks. Yeah, it's more ideal (or so the internet says) to fire down the longest part of the room. If you have pics, I'd love to see them. Do you remember how you (or the original builder) treated it acoustically? It was a lot like the Gervais model, behind the monitors was a huge treated cavity that was stuffed with insulation and sealed off with 703 panels galore. Corners were tapped too, so the room ultimately wasn't rectilinear. Cloud over mix position too, as I recall. We had heavy curtains too, as the monitors fired right at the control room window, but I don't really remember if I closed them to mix or not.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 15, 2019 11:57:17 GMT -6
Thanks. My studio is in my basement and is very well ventilated. Living in Indiana, where it's cold as hell for the winter months, I would prefer my room to be warmer. Would you mind sharing how you treated your space? 2” and 4” 703 panels at 1st and 2nd reflection points, 4” 703 cloud above mix position, panels along front and rear walls, floor to ceiling corner traps in all four corners and portable corner traps along the floor to wall corners. I was in a basement (in Ohio) as well. Thanks. What were your problems (nulls/peaks etc) in your room. Were you simply unable to solve them?
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Post by stormymondays on Feb 15, 2019 12:05:12 GMT -6
Dual purpose room here and I love it. I also record my own band often. I would never settle for two small, bad sounding rooms instead. Fix the main room!
I hardly use cans to get sounds. Just press record and then listen to the playback. Takes a couple more minutes, but so does running from the CR to the live room!
Sometimes l’ll announce what I’m doing on the mic: “ok, here’s the mic on the grille of the amp (play) now it’s one feet back (play)” etc. In a couple passes you have covered all the positioning choices.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 15, 2019 12:08:43 GMT -6
Dual purpose room here and I love it. I also record my own band often. I would never settle for two small, bad sounding rooms instead. Fix the main room! I hardly use cans to get sounds. Just press record and then listen to the playback. Takes a couple more minutes, but so does running from the CR to the live room! Sometimes l’ll announce what I’m doing on the mic: “ok, here’s the mic on the grille of the amp (play) now it’s one feet back (play)” etc. In a couple passes you have covered all the positioning choices. Thanks for your reply. How big is your room?
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Post by stormymondays on Feb 15, 2019 12:24:29 GMT -6
About the same as yours, 24x22x9 roughly. It was purpose built and treated by a pro studio designer but it’s not a fancy design at all.
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Post by Tbone81 on Feb 15, 2019 12:43:16 GMT -6
Plot your dimensions into a room mode calculator to get the best ratio of W x L x H. Small rooms have trouble with low end translation, you can’t cheat the physics, but with LOTS of planning you can make the best of a not-so-perfect situation.
Plan on spending way more time in the design/planning phase than you think necessary. And leave a lot of money for room treatment.
You might find that instead of a 2 room design, it’s cheaper and better acoustically to update your current setup with things like a sealed amp box, a small iso room for amps/vocals, maybe some large, movable gobos to baffle off the drums etc.
Anyway, good luck. Not trying to be a downer, but I’ve made all these mistakes myself. I knew enough acoustics to get myself into trouble...know I know enough to realize how much I don’t know! Check out the John Sayers forum too, lots of great info there. And definitely find someone like Jeff H. It’s a small price to pay for a much better result.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 15, 2019 12:46:18 GMT -6
I ran the two different sizes through Bob Golds Room Modes Calculator. The square one ( 9'7" x 8'7" x 8') is the first result, the longer narrower one (22'3" x 6'6" x 8') is the second. Neither is a smooth curve, but neither looks like the "bad" result. Attachments:
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Post by swurveman on Feb 15, 2019 12:54:18 GMT -6
Plot your dimensions into a room mode calculator to get the best ratio of W x L x H. Small rooms have trouble with low end translation, you can’t cheat the physics, but with LOTS of planning you can make the best of a not-so-perfect situation. Plan on spending way more time in the design/planning phase than you think necessary. And leave a lot of money for room treatment. You might find that instead of a 2 room design, it’s cheaper and better acoustically to update your current setup with things like a sealed amp box, a small iso room for amps/vocals, maybe some large, movable gobos to baffle off the drums etc. Anyway, good luck. Not trying to be a downer, but I’ve made all these mistakes myself. I knew enough acoustics to get myself into trouble...know I know enough to realize how much I don’t know! Check out the John Sayers forum too, lots of great info there. And definitely find someone like Jeff H. It’s a small price to pay for a much better result. Thanks for your reply. Below are the results from putting the dimensions through Bob Golds Room Mode Calculator. I have a ton of absorption, but no diffusion. I'm not going back to one room, but thank you for your advice. Attachments:
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Post by Quint on Feb 15, 2019 12:56:11 GMT -6
I started with a 24x30 standalone building and kicked around doing a control room but ultimately decided against it because of the reasons already mentioned above. I just didn't want to have to compromise so much on the size of the live room to allow for having a control room.
It's always about compromises, but I just didn't like the idea of adding a control room simply so that now I could hear how much worse my now smaller live room would sound. The lack of isolation when doing a one room approach can be overcome. A bad sounding live room cannot.
I did, however, build a dedicated vocal booth in one corner as well as a machine room in the adjacent corner that can double as an additional isolation booth. I also angled the walls of these two rooms to provide a RFZ between them for a mixing position. I'm working with Jeff Hedback on the acoustic treatment now.
My general plan is to make the front half relatively dead and then use moveable acoustic treatment to get the reverberation/dryness/separation between instruments I want when tracking as well as to knock the reverberation down to a suitable degree when mixing.
I also have some nice in ear monitors that I can wear, underneath a pair of those earmuffs people wear when shooting guns, for getting initial sounds and as needed elsewhere during tracking.
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Post by Tbone81 on Feb 15, 2019 12:58:09 GMT -6
The 2nd one defiantly looks better but doesn’t tell you where your modes are or the optimum room ratio. It simply gives you a rough idea of how your modes are spread throughout each octave. (Which is helpful btw)
Find the right ratio first, then conform your room size to that. Also, make sure you’re using the finished size of the room, and not measuring from stud to stud, which doesn’t account for framing, drywall, etc.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 15, 2019 13:05:39 GMT -6
I started with a 24x30 standalone building and kicked around doing a control room but ultimately decided against it because of the reasons already mentioned above. I just didn't want to have to compromise so much on the size of the live room to allow for having a control room. It's always about compromises, but I just didn't like the idea of adding a control room simply so that now I could hear how much worse my now smaller live room would sound. The lack of isolation when doing a one room approach can be overcome. A bad sounding live room cannot. I did, however, build a dedicated vocal booth in one corner as well as a machine room in the adjacent corner that can double as an additional isolation booth. I also angled the walls of these two rooms to provide a RFZ between them for a mixing position. I'm working with Jeff Hedback on the acoustic treatment now. Thanks for your reply. I have a separate room for amps. So, I'm really only dealing with drums and the biggest problem is the ceiling height which i can't change anyway. I've already worked with Jeff, but have a very difficult room due to the HVAC Duct Chase and am still not happy, mostly due to the aforementioned dislike of not hearing everything live in isolation. So, I'm gonna go with a control room . Thanks for your thoughts.
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