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Post by Quint on Feb 15, 2019 13:09:30 GMT -6
I started with a 24x30 standalone building and kicked around doing a control room but ultimately decided against it because of the reasons already mentioned above. I just didn't want to have to compromise so much on the size of the live room to allow for having a control room. It's always about compromises, but I just didn't like the idea of adding a control room simply so that now I could hear how much worse my now smaller live room would sound. The lack of isolation when doing a one room approach can be overcome. A bad sounding live room cannot. I did, however, build a dedicated vocal booth in one corner as well as a machine room in the adjacent corner that can double as an additional isolation booth. I also angled the walls of these two rooms to provide a RFZ between them for a mixing position. I'm working with Jeff Hedback on the acoustic treatment now. Thanks for your reply. I have a separate room for amps. So, I'm really only dealing with drums and the biggest problem is the ceiling height which i can't change anyway. I've already worked with Jeff, but have a very difficult room due to the HVAC Duct Chase and am still not happy, mostly due to the aforementioned dislike of not hearing everything live in isolation. So, I'm gonna go with a control room . Thanks for your thoughts. I hear you. The compromises suck, but they are what they are. Best of luck.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 15, 2019 13:10:52 GMT -6
Thanks for your reply. I have a separate room for amps. So, I'm really only dealing with drums and the biggest problem is the ceiling height which i can't change anyway. I've already worked with Jeff, but have a very difficult room due to the HVAC Duct Chase and am still not happy, mostly due to the aforementioned dislike of not hearing everything live in isolation. So, I'm gonna go with a control room . Thanks for your thoughts. I hear you. The compromises suck, but they are what they are. Best of luck. Thanks man!
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 15, 2019 13:29:05 GMT -6
Man, I am trying to find pics online but the internet is not helping me out. Add to which, I am bad at guessing dimensions. Gonna say more like 12x7x8, speakers firing across that 7' dimension (not ideal). That 12 could be more, or less. I'm hopeless. Build out was done before I piled on. Thanks. Yeah, it's more ideal (or so the internet says) to fire down the longest part of the room. If you have pics, I'd love to see them. Do you remember how you (or the original builder) treated it acoustically? Yeah, that's the conventional wisdom.
As I often am, I'm something of a heretic. The thing about setting up across the more narrow side of the room is that your first reflection points almost totally miss your mix position - they go into the back wall. In my last place that back wall was taken up by (1) an door into a hall, (2) a door into another room, which was used as a combination vocal booth and workshop and (3) a shallow mic closet, so that the second reflection was also not bouncing right back at the mix position. In the current place the control room is also set up with the longer dimension to the sides (which is not quite as long as the previous space), with a long closet with sliding doors to the rear. It should also probably be noted that both places have a large bay window behind the console. The first place had a lovely 12' ceiling; the new place is lower.
I'm dealing with rented residential spaces so I can't do anything resembling a real build-out.
EDIT: I should also mention that the long dimensions of these rooms aren't super long, maybe twice the shallow dimension or thereabouts. I'm not sure what I'd do with a really long, skinny room except maybe avoid it.
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Post by Tbone81 on Feb 15, 2019 13:32:06 GMT -6
Food for thought...a live room can sound many different ways, all of them “good” depending on your needs. It can be dead, reverberant, bright, boomy etc. A controll needs to sound accurate and flat regardless. So I’d make the control room acoustics a priority over the live room acoustics. It’s a hard balance of compromises...do you have pictures of your current setup?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 15, 2019 13:32:53 GMT -6
Right, so here's the faustian bargain: you may make the sound of your live room suffer, to accomodate better knowing what you're getting. But I do think that's always the case with home studios. I say this empathetically, not trying to be a naysayer at all. Thanks. The smaller control room would be in the right back corner. It would actually be easier for an assistant to walk around for placing room mics, because my large desk is facing the drum space right now. I know what you're saying though. I would kill for a big drum tracking room with high ceilings with isolation booths for amps and vocals and a separate control room. We do what we can afford and make the best of it. Move to MA and join me.
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Post by Quint on Feb 15, 2019 13:37:35 GMT -6
I'd say there is a point though where your room is big enough that even the shortest of the two walls is still big enough to keep the first reflections out of the mix, in which case it won't matter which wall you put it on, at least in that particular context. There may be other mitigating circumstances that influence which wall is the best place to put your mix position.
There's also the case that a room is so small that you'll be dealing with those first reflections regardless of what wall you put it on, in which case it still might be better to have your monitors fire down the longest dimension.
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Post by drbill on Feb 15, 2019 13:48:51 GMT -6
I've owned and worked in one room, and traditional (2+) room studio's with dedicated CRM's. If you're recording full bands, then a traditional approach is better. If doing overdubs primarily, I'd opt for the bigger one room approach. That said, I'd recommend you do 3 things : 1. Call Hedback and tell him your conundrum 2. Listen to Hedback 3. Build what Hedback says.
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Post by donr on Feb 15, 2019 14:26:04 GMT -6
Frank, one other option you might consider before you start construction is in-ear monitors with isolation earmuffs over that for your critical listening while recording live in the one room. Your choice of pro quality in-ear monitors, and the Lectrosonics M2 Duet system IEM transmitter-receiver. I just bought it, because I had to have it, even though the Sennheiser and the new Shure systems are ok, but I wouldn't consider them wired quality. www.lectrosonics.com/US/Products/category/digital-iem-wireless-monitor-system.htmlIt's the best quality wireless sound I've ever heard, 24bit digital, super low latency (1.4ms) and stellar dyamic range and linearity. It's expensive but so would building your control room. Over the in-ears, put some Bose QC35 series2 phones on, which have a great seal and phenominal active noise reduction with no audio source of their own active. Then you could walk around, place mics, listening wirelessly with probably better sound isolation than you'd get with a walled room anyway, and you could go back on speakers whenever the isolation wasn't critical. At list prices, your total cost would be about 6k, but you could rely on what you hear.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 15, 2019 14:32:10 GMT -6
Thanks. The smaller control room would be in the right back corner. It would actually be easier for an assistant to walk around for placing room mics, because my large desk is facing the drum space right now. I know what you're saying though. I would kill for a big drum tracking room with high ceilings with isolation booths for amps and vocals and a separate control room. We do what we can afford and make the best of it. Move to MA and join me. Love to, but I'd have to get a divorce. To paraphrase the glimmer twins, "I know, it's only marriage, but I like it. "
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Post by swurveman on Feb 15, 2019 14:35:36 GMT -6
Frank, one other option you might consider before you start construction is in-ear monitors with isolation earmuffs over that for your critical listening while recording live in the one room. Your choice of pro quality in-ear monitors, and the Lectrosonics M2 Duet system IEM transmitter-receiver. I just bought it, because I had to have it, even though the Sennheiser and the new Shure systems are ok, but I wouldn't consider them wired quality. www.lectrosonics.com/US/Products/category/digital-iem-wireless-monitor-system.htmlIt's the best quality wireless sound I've ever heard, 24bit digital, super low latency (1.4ms) and stellar dyamic range and linearity. It's expensive but so would building your control room. Over the in-ears, put some Bose QC35 series2 phones on, which have a great seal and phenominal active noise reduction with no audio source of their own active. Then you could walk around, place mics, listening wirelessly with probably better sound isolation than you'd get with a walled room anyway, and you could go back on speakers whenever the isolation wasn't critical. At list prices, your total cost would be about 6k, but you could rely on what you hear. Thanks Don. Interesting option.
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Post by Quint on Feb 15, 2019 14:40:30 GMT -6
Frank, one other option you might consider before you start construction is in-ear monitors with isolation earmuffs over that for your critical listening while recording live in the one room. Your choice of pro quality in-ear monitors, and the Lectrosonics M2 Duet system IEM transmitter-receiver. I just bought it, because I had to have it, even though the Sennheiser and the new Shure systems are ok, but I wouldn't consider them wired quality. www.lectrosonics.com/US/Products/category/digital-iem-wireless-monitor-system.htmlIt's the best quality wireless sound I've ever heard, 24bit digital, super low latency (1.4ms) and stellar dyamic range and linearity. It's expensive but so would building your control room. Over the in-ears, put some Bose QC35 series2 phones on, which have a great seal and phenominal active noise reduction with no audio source of their own active. Then you could walk around, place mics, listening wirelessly with probably better sound isolation than you'd get with a walled room anyway, and you could go back on speakers whenever the isolation wasn't critical. At list prices, your total cost would be about 6k, but you could rely on what you hear. Thanks Don. Interesting option. I believe someone mentioned the in ear monitors with earmuffs option earlier in the thread....
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Post by donr on Feb 15, 2019 14:42:44 GMT -6
I already do that with my in-ear monitors instead of regular cans connected to the wired headphone outs. I've got enough headphone cord that I can walk around my small recording space without tripping or knocking things over. I use the in-ears and muffs when I really want to isolate what's coming through a microphone from the sound the mic is picking up.
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Post by bradd on Feb 15, 2019 14:47:42 GMT -6
You really should speak with Jeff Hedback. He is in Indiana as well, although he works remotely. He helped with my Kansas City studio and is doing the same with my new Nashville room. He is very reasonable, practical, knowledgeable and helpful.
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Post by Quint on Feb 15, 2019 14:48:12 GMT -6
I already do that with my in-ear monitors instead of regular cans connected to the wired headphone outs. I've got enough headphone cord that I can walk around my small recording space without tripping or knocking things over. I use the in-ears and muffs when I really want to isolate what's coming through a microphone from the sound the mic is picking up. Yep. It works pretty well. And you can really get right up on the source while you're moving mics around to get the right sound.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 15, 2019 14:54:39 GMT -6
There's also the case that a room is so small that you'll be dealing with those first reflections regardless of what wall you put it on, in which case it still might be better to have your monitors fire down the longest dimension. Yeah, this is one of the key decisions I'll have to make, since my two choices are radically different if I go with the "fire down the length" logic. The more cube like option- with 9'7" length- has 8'7" side walls, while the longer, more narrow option-with a 22'3" length- has 6'6" side walls.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 15, 2019 14:55:59 GMT -6
You really should speak with Jeff Hedback. He is in Indiana as well, although he works remotely. He helped with my Kansas City studio and is doing the same with my new Nashville room. He is very reasonable, practical, knowledgeable and helpful. I've worked with Jeff. He designed my current layout.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 15, 2019 15:11:08 GMT -6
The 2nd one defiantly looks better but doesn’t tell you where your modes are or the optimum room ratio. It simply gives you a rough idea of how your modes are spread throughout each octave. (Which is helpful btw) Find the right ratio first, then conform your room size to that. Also, make sure you’re using the finished size of the room, and not measuring from stud to stud, which doesn’t account for framing, drywall, etc. It's already finished. I'd start with floor to ceiling corner absorption, first reflections and a ceiling cloud. Not sure how much of the entire ceiling should/would need absorption. I know reflections are a bigger deal in a smaller space. I'd suspect I'd need some targeted frequency diffusion. I'll get some photos of what it currently looks like. Thanks for your thoughts!
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Post by Tbone81 on Feb 15, 2019 15:11:15 GMT -6
Out of curiosity why not consider saving the money and just renting out a big local room by the day when you need it? That’s what I’m doing, and it turned out to be way more affordable for me, plus o get to use awesome mics and gear I couldn’t afford, plus clients think I’m the balls when I bring them into a large room with a fancy console. After drums and the other “big stuff” I do all the overdubs (guitars? Bass, vocals” and mix at my house...best of both worlds plus it keeps me connected with the recording scene and other local engineers which i like.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 15, 2019 15:22:39 GMT -6
Out of curiosity why not consider saving the money and just renting out a big local room by the day when you need it? That’s what I’m doing, and it turned out to be way more affordable for me, plus o get to use awesome mics and gear I couldn’t afford, plus clients think I’m the balls when I bring them into a large room with a fancy console. After drums and the other “big stuff” I do all the overdubs (guitars? Bass, vocals” and mix at my house...best of both worlds plus it keeps me connected with the recording scene and other local engineers which i like. Unfortunately, there's no big local room. Plus, I really like the idea of getting together a studio band and rehearsing/recording songs with sonic signatures sculpted during the rehearsal/recording phase. There's lots of great musicians my age, I'm 61, but not many with money. So, they're looking for a place to play and be a part of something fun.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,967
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Post by ericn on Feb 15, 2019 15:27:50 GMT -6
I've owned and worked in one room, and traditional (2+) room studio's with dedicated CRM's. If you're recording full bands, then a traditional approach is better. If doing overdubs primarily, I'd opt for the bigger one room approach. That said, I'd recommend you do 3 things : 1. Call Hedback and tell him your conundrum 2. Listen to Hedback 3. Build what Hedback says. What he said!!!
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Post by swurveman on Feb 15, 2019 15:32:09 GMT -6
I've owned and worked in one room, and traditional (2+) room studio's with dedicated CRM's. If you're recording full bands, then a traditional approach is better. If doing overdubs primarily, I'd opt for the bigger one room approach. That said, I'd recommend you do 3 things : 1. Call Hedback and tell him your conundrum 2. Listen to Hedback 3. Build what Hedback says. What he said!!! Jeff designed my current space. If I need him I'll call him.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 15, 2019 15:36:32 GMT -6
Jeff designed my current space. If I need him I'll call him. Apparently nobody reads. 😂😂
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,967
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Post by ericn on Feb 15, 2019 15:51:48 GMT -6
Jeff designed my current space. If I need him I'll call him. Apparently nobody reads. 😂😂 Why would anybody bother to read🤔
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Post by drbill on Feb 15, 2019 16:15:58 GMT -6
Apparently nobody reads. 😂😂 Why would anybody bother to read🤔 Exactly! I'm hoping the 251 is better than expected!!
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Post by drbill on Feb 15, 2019 16:18:50 GMT -6
Jeff designed my current space. If I need him I'll call him. OK. I looked at your first post again, and I didn't see anything about Jeff designing it. Since you're already there, I'll just refer you to #2 & #3 of my list. As great as on-line opinions are (and they can point out some interesting directions sometimes), nothing beats pro advice that's custom tailored to your specific needs. As for your 1 room to 2 room conundrum, IMO, it's better to have one room that works great than two rooms that don't work optimally. I have no idea how that applies to you, but it's just a general thought about modern CRM's. re : 1 room - donr had some interesting thoughts....
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