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Post by johneppstein on Feb 3, 2019 19:53:50 GMT -6
There are a few substitutes out there for the AC701. None of them quite as magical but decent. As great a tube it was that could transform the U67 into the incredible M269 if you were given the choice between an ELA M251 non-export model with the AC701 tube or a ELA M251 export model with the 6072 tube you'd pick the export model. Every non-export model I've heard has been rather boring. There are no direct substitutes. The closest are probably the solid state emulations produced by a couple of companies. Last night I ran across a fairly in-depth article on why none of the (actual tube) "substitutes" for the AC701K are really adequate. I forgot to book mark it but if I can find it again I'll post a link. It seems that there are parameters that tube engineers know about that are not listed on commercial spec sheets.
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Post by Vincent R. on Feb 3, 2019 20:26:54 GMT -6
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 3, 2019 20:30:06 GMT -6
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Post by Ward on Feb 4, 2019 9:25:37 GMT -6
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Post by Guitar on Feb 4, 2019 10:02:56 GMT -6
Looks like the M49 is really pulling ahead... anyone want to start placing bets?
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Post by drbill on Feb 4, 2019 10:04:16 GMT -6
At least it's plugged in...
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Post by mdmitch2 on Feb 4, 2019 10:19:40 GMT -6
Looks like the M49 is really pulling ahead... anyone want to start placing bets? Surprised to see that! I guess there aren't many semi-affordable M49 clones out there. That tube though....
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wave
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Post by wave on Feb 4, 2019 10:24:11 GMT -6
I will throw my vote in for 67/269 and 49/249. I also have spoken to Eric at length about doing a KM56 mic. I have a backplate set we are looking at. Also, for those who want an opinion: I have personally used the Phaedrus AC701 device(s) in an SM2 restoration. Yes they sound really good. No, they aren't exactly like the valve. For me, they are almost identical except for a tiny difference in the high end. The response is there, but the solid state device doesn't round the high end the same way if that makes sense. The valves seem to have a nice silkiness that the device doesn't fully realize. Having said that, they sound very good and I'm really nit-picking. I was able to compare as I restored 2x SM2 mics and did my A/B with the same head assembly. I can verify that the Phaedrus equipped mic was about 3db louder at the same mic pre gain setting. I think it draws a little more current on the B+ as my "plate" voltage dropped to around 35V with the stock schematic value anode resistors installed. Richard at Phaedrus said this was normal. If you decide to try a Phaedrus AC701 device please note: The heater arrangement has a definitive polarity unlike the valve. If you accidentally flip them, the device will emit some crazy noises! -Dave
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Post by Vincent R. on Feb 4, 2019 10:25:00 GMT -6
Looks like the M49 is really pulling ahead... anyone want to start placing bets? Surprised to see that! I guess there aren't many semi-affordable M49 clones out there. That tube though.... Nothing in the same league as the higher priced counter parts like FleA. I owned an Advanced Audio CM49, but it doesn’t have the same low end and is a bit more open. Great at its price point though. There are custom builders building at various price points. Some making the AMI kit at about 2k for premium parts, some using your K47 or various M7 variants. Then there are those doing their own custom pieces and those can reach close to 5k. The Peluso is $1800, but probably sounds more like the Advanced Audio. The FleA 49 is my favorite mic on my voice. It’s really close to the real deal, minus the AC701k magic.
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wave
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Post by wave on Feb 4, 2019 10:29:33 GMT -6
Surprised to see that! I guess there aren't many semi-affordable M49 clones out there. That tube though.... Nothing in the same league as the higher priced counter parts like FleA. I owned an Advanced Audio CM49, but it doesn’t have the same low end and is a bit more open. Great at its price point though. There are custom builders building at various price points. Some making the AMI kit at about 2k for premium parts, some using your K47 or various M7 variants. Then there are those doing their own custom pieces and those can reach close to 5k. The Peluso is $1800, but probably sounds more like the Advanced Audio. The FleA 49 is my favorite mic on my voice. It’s really close to the real deal, minus the AC701k magic. What valve is in your Flea M49?
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Post by drbill on Feb 4, 2019 10:43:57 GMT -6
Looks like the M49 is really pulling ahead... anyone want to start placing bets? Surprised to see that! I guess there aren't many semi-affordable M49 clones out there. That tube though.... Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the M49 / 249, (I did change my vote after all.... , but I'm wondering how many people have even used one or if they are just going off internet hype. They are fairly esoteric mics, good ones that are maintained are VERY rare, and they are NOT my first choice as a vocal mic. I like them for mic-ing at a distance in a great room like Capitol or Conway C. They are fantastic there. They CAN be amazing on vocals, but honestly, not the first mic I would reach for. I think there's a reason that the U47 became (and stayed) the king of vocal mics. Not sure about the M49 hype and why it's in vogue. As uber-hyped as it is, the 67/269 is a better call for vocals in general. And really, for dam near anything. Although it does not exude the magic of a great M49/249. That said, and I've said it at least 2-3 times...,yes...."that tube though" is (IMO) the problem in reissuing a M49... And as much as some point to solutions to get around that, I'll be a naysayer until I hear it. I would suggest that if possible (and I have no idea how viable this is...) that if you have the option of making a build where you can swap out tubes, that you do it - offering a AC701 upgrade path. I can neither confirm nor deny, but I have heard that there are lots of AC701's out there - owned by just a handful of people that are hording them - waiting for the moment to cash in. Not sure if this is true or not.
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Post by drbill on Feb 4, 2019 10:50:44 GMT -6
Surprised to see that! I guess there aren't many semi-affordable M49 clones out there. That tube though.... Nothing in the same league as the higher priced counter parts like FleA. I owned an Advanced Audio CM49, but it doesn’t have the same low end and is a bit more open. Great at its price point though. There are custom builders building at various price points. Some making the AMI kit at about 2k for premium parts, some using your K47 or various M7 variants. Then there are those doing their own custom pieces and those can reach close to 5k. The Peluso is $1800, but probably sounds more like the Advanced Audio. The FleA 49 is my favorite mic on my voice. It’s really close to the real deal, minus the AC701k magic. That's such a saddening statement Vincent. That kind of like saying "this Ferrari clone is really awesome - except for the engine...." LOL There are very few components (some transformers, or other circuitry, etc.) that I can "hear" in a piece of gear, but the 701.....sigh. I can hear it every time.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Feb 4, 2019 11:06:42 GMT -6
Surprised to see that! I guess there aren't many semi-affordable M49 clones out there. That tube though.... Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the M49 / 249, (I did change my vote after all.... , but I'm wondering how many people have even used one or if they are just going off internet hype. They are fairly esoteric mics, good ones that are maintained are VERY rare, and they are NOT my first choice as a vocal mic. I like them for mic-ing at a distance in a great room like Capitol or Conway C. They are fantastic there. They CAN be amazing on vocals, but honestly, not the first mic I would reach for. I think there's a reason that the U47 became (and stayed) the king of vocal mics. Not sure about the M49 hype and why it's in vogue. As uber-hyped as it is, the 67/269 is a better call for vocals in general. And really, for dam near anything. Although it does not exude the magic of a great M49/249. That said, and I've said it at least 2-3 times...,yes...."that tube though" is (IMO) the problem in reissuing a M49... And as much as some point to solutions to get around that, I'll be a naysayer until I hear it. I would suggest that if possible (and I have no idea how viable this is...) that if you have the option of making a build where you can swap out tubes, that you do it - offering a AC701 upgrade path. I can neither confirm nor deny, but I have heard that there are lots of AC701's out there - owned by just a handful of people that are hording them - waiting for the moment to cash in. Not sure if this is true or not. I have heard that story as well but I also have heard it about the VF14. I do know guys who have a nice stock of Ac701’s but they are for their own mics not for cashing in !
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Post by Mister Chase on Feb 4, 2019 11:11:52 GMT -6
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the M49 / 249, (I did change my vote after all.... , but I'm wondering how many people have even used one or if they are just going off internet hype. They are fairly esoteric mics, good ones that are maintained are VERY rare, and they are NOT my first choice as a vocal mic. I like them for mic-ing at a distance in a great room like Capitol or Conway C. They are fantastic there. They CAN be amazing on vocals, but honestly, not the first mic I would reach for. I think there's a reason that the U47 became (and stayed) the king of vocal mics. Not sure about the M49 hype and why it's in vogue. As uber-hyped as it is, the 67/269 is a better call for vocals in general. And really, for dam near anything. Although it does not exude the magic of a great M49/249. That said, and I've said it at least 2-3 times...,yes...."that tube though" is (IMO) the problem in reissuing a M49... And as much as some point to solutions to get around that, I'll be a naysayer until I hear it. I would suggest that if possible (and I have no idea how viable this is...) that if you have the option of making a build where you can swap out tubes, that you do it - offering a AC701 upgrade path. I can neither confirm nor deny, but I have heard that there are lots of AC701's out there - owned by just a handful of people that are hording them - waiting for the moment to cash in. Not sure if this is true or not. I have heard that story as well but I also have heard it about the VF14. I do know guys who have a nice stock of Ac701’s but they are for their own mics not for cashing in ! Sounds like time for a heist. I'll bring the van around.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Feb 4, 2019 11:34:54 GMT -6
Surprised to see that! I guess there aren't many semi-affordable M49 clones out there. That tube though.... Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the M49 / 249, (I did change my vote after all.... , but I'm wondering how many people have even used one or if they are just going off internet hype. They are fairly esoteric mics, good ones that are maintained are VERY rare, and they are NOT my first choice as a vocal mic. I like them for mic-ing at a distance in a great room like Capitol or Conway C. They are fantastic there. They CAN be amazing on vocals, but honestly, not the first mic I would reach for. I think there's a reason that the U47 became (and stayed) the king of vocal mics. Not sure about the M49 hype and why it's in vogue. As uber-hyped as it is, the 67/269 is a better call for vocals in general. And really, for dam near anything. Although it does not exude the magic of a great M49/249. That said, and I've said it at least 2-3 times...,yes...."that tube though" is (IMO) the problem in reissuing a M49... And as much as some point to solutions to get around that, I'll be a naysayer until I hear it. I would suggest that if possible (and I have no idea how viable this is...) that if you have the option of making a build where you can swap out tubes, that you do it - offering a AC701 upgrade path. I can neither confirm nor deny, but I have heard that there are lots of AC701's out there - owned by just a handful of people that are hording them - waiting for the moment to cash in. Not sure if this is true or not. Yeah I'm kind of in doubt that the M49 would be as popular in reality -- definitely seems like more of a niche mic despite the current hype. I might do a facebook poll of m49 vs u67 and get a wider range of users/opinions.
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Post by avgatzeblouz on Feb 4, 2019 11:39:38 GMT -6
I will throw my vote in for 67/269 and 49/249. I also have spoken to Eric at length about doing a KM56 mic. I have a backplate set we are looking at. Also, for those who want an opinion: I have personally used the Phaedrus AC701 device(s) in an SM2 restoration. Yes they sound really good. No, they aren't exactly like the valve. For me, they are almost identical except for a tiny difference in the high end. The response is there, but the solid state device doesn't round the high end the same way if that makes sense. The valves seem to have a nice silkiness that the device doesn't fully realize. Having said that, they sound very good and I'm really nit-picking. I was able to compare as I restored 2x SM2 mics and did my A/B with the same head assembly. I can verify that the Phaedrus equipped mic was about 3db louder at the same mic pre gain setting. I think it draws a little more current on the B+ as my "plate" voltage dropped to around 35V with the stock schematic value anode resistors installed. Richard at Phaedrus said this was normal. If you decide to try a Phaedrus AC701 device please note: The heater arrangement has a definitive polarity unlike the valve. If you accidentally flip them, the device will emit some crazy noises! -Dave Hi Dave, do you think the Phaedrus device can be as close to a real one as two different real AC701k can be ? In other words, could the difference in high end you were hearing be heard as well between 2 different real tubes ?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 4, 2019 11:55:11 GMT -6
The M49 sounds a bit honky to me. Certainly a great mic, but I don't think it's anywhere near as good a fit for as many people as a 67 is.
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wave
Full Member
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Post by wave on Feb 4, 2019 12:02:24 GMT -6
Hi Dave, do you think the Phaedrus device can be as close to a real one as two different real AC701k can be ? In other words, could the difference in high end you were hearing be heard as well between 2 different real tubes ? This is a great question! I wasn't able to compare like that. I was restoring SM2 mics so I needed to use the 2 AC701s in their mic. I wish I could have tried a 1+1 arrangement since it is a stereo mic and the head assembly was superb. I still have the Phaedrus variant here in the lab but I don't have a good AC701s to put in it right now to compare (only rejected units). I feel like the high end difference I heard is more of a thing that valves in general have... that nice silkiness/smoothness. By all means the Phaedrus devices work great and retrofits directly in. They have a clip on their sire comparing the 5840 and their device in an M49 which is a great example of why the 5840 isn't the best choice for replacement. I have a custom M49 here that I'm working on with a different sub-miniature valve that sounds pretty amazing too. It is for a client so I'm not sure if he wants me to share the valve type. I'll ask. I can say that this valve was designed for oscillator and amplifier applications... It is a twin triode medium µ valve. Another old sub-mini valve I want to try is the 6947 which looks promising. Dave
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Post by Vincent R. on Feb 4, 2019 12:07:04 GMT -6
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the M49 / 249, (I did change my vote after all.... , but I'm wondering how many people have even used one or if they are just going off internet hype. They are fairly esoteric mics, good ones that are maintained are VERY rare, and they are NOT my first choice as a vocal mic. I like them for mic-ing at a distance in a great room like Capitol or Conway C. They are fantastic there. They CAN be amazing on vocals, but honestly, not the first mic I would reach for. I think there's a reason that the U47 became (and stayed) the king of vocal mics. Not sure about the M49 hype and why it's in vogue. As uber-hyped as it is, the 67/269 is a better call for vocals in general. And really, for dam near anything. Although it does not exude the magic of a great M49/249. That said, and I've said it at least 2-3 times...,yes...."that tube though" is (IMO) the problem in reissuing a M49... And as much as some point to solutions to get around that, I'll be a naysayer until I hear it. I would suggest that if possible (and I have no idea how viable this is...) that if you have the option of making a build where you can swap out tubes, that you do it - offering a AC701 upgrade path. I can neither confirm nor deny, but I have heard that there are lots of AC701's out there - owned by just a handful of people that are hording them - waiting for the moment to cash in. Not sure if this is true or not. I have heard that story as well but I also have heard it about the VF14. I do know guys who have a nice stock of Ac701’s but they are for their own mics not for cashing in ! There are quite a few mic companies that have a stock of them for repairs or for their replicas upon request. FleA will make you a FleA 47 with a VF14 or a FleA 49 with an AC701k upon request and additional costs for the current market value of the tube in question.
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Post by drbill on Feb 4, 2019 12:08:02 GMT -6
The M49 sounds a bit honky to me. Certainly a great mic, but I don't think it's anywhere near as good a fit for as many people as a 67 is. Could you possibly elaborate Martin? Probably semantics, but "honky" is not a descriptor I'd put to an M49.... Are you speaking to one mic, or an ongoing experience with M49's in general? Thx.
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Post by avgatzeblouz on Feb 4, 2019 12:08:30 GMT -6
wave Very interesting, thank you. I personnaly should have a pair of DIY M49 in a week or so with Neumann capsules, Phaedrus tube, and FAB transformers. I wish I could compare to an original one. Anyway, sorry Eric for the slight derail. I agree a 67 would sell much more than an M49.
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Post by drbill on Feb 4, 2019 12:10:08 GMT -6
I have heard that story as well but I also have heard it about the VF14. I do know guys who have a nice stock of Ac701’s but they are for their own mics not for cashing in ! There are quite a few mic companies that have a stock of them for repairs or for their replicas upon request. FleA will make you a FleA 47 with a VF14 or a FleA 49 with an AC701k upon request and additional costs for the current market value of the tube in question. Just to be upfront - the story I heard is about speculators who snatched them up when they started to get scarce - who are holding them for financial reasons. Not mic companies who actually USE them or for mic collectors to safeguard their AC701 equipped mics.
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Post by Mister Chase on Feb 4, 2019 12:35:06 GMT -6
Aside from vocals, m49s have made some great jazz recordings on drums, piano, horns etc.
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Post by Vincent R. on Feb 4, 2019 12:57:37 GMT -6
Nothing in the same league as the higher priced counter parts like FleA. I owned an Advanced Audio CM49, but it doesn’t have the same low end and is a bit more open. Great at its price point though. There are custom builders building at various price points. Some making the AMI kit at about 2k for premium parts, some using your K47 or various M7 variants. Then there are those doing their own custom pieces and those can reach close to 5k. The Peluso is $1800, but probably sounds more like the Advanced Audio. The FleA 49 is my favorite mic on my voice. It’s really close to the real deal, minus the AC701k magic. That's such a saddening statement Vincent. That kind of like saying "this Ferrari clone is really awesome - except for the engine...." LOL There are very few components (some transformers, or other circuitry, etc.) that I can "hear" in a piece of gear, but the 701.....sigh. I can hear it every time. You know it's really subtle. To your analogy I'd say its more like having a 590 hp engine in my Ferrari instead of the 750 hp engine. The real difference is in the low end. I can add that missing low end by taking a pultec and bumping the low end 1-2db at 30hz. The high end of the mic is very close to the M49c I used at Barbershop Studios. I deliberately chose to build my FleA 49 pretty contrary to how a lot of people on this board recommended me to, with a F47 and their stock tube. I felt was better suited to my voice and my work. I feared I would be constantly EQing the bottom or low mids out with the AC701k, because my voice is super warm and it could be too much. I had the luck of being able to try VK's demo which had the stock tube and k47 in my studio. I was also able to head to Calistro Music in CT who had two with F7 caps; one with the stock tube and the other with a AC701k. Craig has been my go to guy for new gear for years and was able to make time for me. I immediately knew the F47 better suited my voice. Then I spent a while debating about the tube choice.
I still debate sending it back to Ivan to install the AC701, however every time I use it I remark to myself just how good it sounds on my voice. I've been doing a lot of studio session work with it and everyone has just been floored by the combination of it with my voice. I did have a female singer in here using it where I felt it needed a little more low end and ended up going with a 67ish mic instead, but on my wife and I with a little boost at 8khz it just sounds wonderful... I could argue about using a 67 instead of a 49 on my wife's voice, but that's why I voted for the 67. Right now the best I have is BLUE's B11 capsule of my Bottle Rocket Stage II. Their B10 capsule, which is supposed to be their 49ish capsule sounded more like my CM49 than my FleA. So I returned it.
After having some conversations with Ivan I'm hoping to pick up a FleA 49 Next down the road, which he said he could put a F47 in for me, even though it is not technically offered in that configuration. Then I would basically have a pair. It has all the same components accept the body kit and PCB. He advised he could match my 49 Vintage well with that configuration. Maybe when I get that I'll send my FleA49 vintage back for the upgrade since I know I'll have the sound I like with the NEXT.
Ask me in a few days and I'll have a completely different opinion. lol.
wave I believe it has a 6S6B. When I spoke with Rob at RMS when I was looking at his RMS269 and RMS49 he advised he uses a 5703. I liked what that tube did to the RMS269 when I had it. It was nice a smooth with a low mid warmth you'd expect. I'd be pretty curious what is 49 sounds like, but it's $4399. He also has a more budget friendly model for $2999.
Anyway, sorry about the detour, but this is what you face when replicating a mic with an AC701k... Hope I didn't scare Heiserman away from the M49 or the KM56.
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wave
Full Member
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Post by wave on Feb 4, 2019 13:27:46 GMT -6
wave Very interesting, thank you. I personnaly should have a pair of DIY M49 in a week or so with Neumann capsules, Phaedrus tube, and FAB transformers. I wish I could compare to an original one. Anyway, sorry Eric for the slight derail. I agree a 67 would sell much more than an M49. I forgot about the FAB transformers! Have you used them before? vincent : 5703 is a good choice as well! needs the heater change but I have used them with success before.
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