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Post by avgatzeblouz on Feb 14, 2019 14:28:54 GMT -6
I don't have the Warm and am not intending on purchasing one. If Warm make an Omni capsule I may buy one though, to try it out on the KM84 body. Lending one to a store could be an option ?
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Post by drbill on Feb 14, 2019 14:46:06 GMT -6
I honestly can't say they were ever intended as clones. I "think" the MC012 dates back to the early 60's. The circuit is absolutely not even close. they are very very different. It's just kind of amazing how close they sound when the source is <8". At least that's my experience. I'd take back the pair of KM84i if I could. Very nice mics indeed. I thought the octava mikes were copies of neumanns ? no.
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Post by Ward on Feb 14, 2019 14:46:36 GMT -6
I just ordered two new KK84 capsules from Neumann in Germany, been wanting to do it for a while, but the fact that these WA84s will use interchangeable capsules scared me into doing it now, in before the rush! It shouldn't be too hard to flip the old KK84s on Reverb to prospective new WA84 owners. Just a heads up for anyone else wanting to buy new KK84s from Neumann, I was told they will now only sell to companies, not individuals. I had to supply details of my business etc. Now what I am wondering, is when will Warm have Omni caps available, that I could use on my KM84 bodies? Hey, does this mean you will be able to compare the same Neumann capsule on Neumann and Warm bodies ? That would be sick ! Could be like comparing a 350 small block in a corvette and a chevette, right? LOL A friend of mine did that growing up .
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Post by avgatzeblouz on Feb 14, 2019 14:58:44 GMT -6
Well, the capsule is supposed to be 90% of the sound, right ?
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Post by drbill on Feb 14, 2019 15:06:29 GMT -6
Well, the capsule is supposed to be 90% of the sound, right ? i wouldn't say that.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 14, 2019 15:12:52 GMT -6
Be fun to do a blind shoot out switching caps and bodies and see ?
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Post by notneeson on Feb 14, 2019 15:21:22 GMT -6
Ah seriously why would you suggest such a thing? You are implying Warm has just rebranded somebody else’s work ? Rebranded might be strong, but "outsourced" or "contracted out" would probably be appropriate words. It's possible Guosheng made some further tweaks to the capsules for Warm, so maybe they're a little bit different than the Warbler 127, but it's likely that they are the exact same cardioid flat capsule 3U sells for the 127. The specs are only 1db different between the Warm and Warbler. Kinda looks like the main differences are just the body and transformer but only Warm and 3U know for sure. Regardless, they seem like they will be nice microphones and I'd be interested to compare and see how much of a difference the Cinemag makes. I believe OEM is the correct term.
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Post by ragan on Feb 14, 2019 15:37:15 GMT -6
FYI the WA-84 doesn't use the same capsule as the Warbler 127. They custom tooled theirs to match the Neumann and the sonics/design are different.
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Post by wiz on Feb 14, 2019 16:12:26 GMT -6
Nice, that off axis performance seems to be the thing that people really appreciate about the 84. The octava are of course the original Russian clone so should be very close but I don't know how well the cap was manufactured and its plus vents positioning were replicated ? The thing with the 84 is,... you just place it and it sounds freaking excellent... Not just good, excellent. Where as the other SDs I have owned... you spend ages, mucking about just to get good/passable. Also, its a really good vocal mic. Its a bargain for what it is... Like an U87, STA level, LA2A, once you use the real thing, its worth the admission price in the long run. Cheers Wiz Cheers Wiz
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Post by reddirt on Feb 14, 2019 17:09:27 GMT -6
Wiz - experience talking right there. Cheers, Ross
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Post by jakeharris on Feb 14, 2019 21:17:00 GMT -6
In the manual online it says 22mm body diameter.
Unless it's a misprint, KK84 no go.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 14, 2019 22:48:38 GMT -6
Where can you find KM84's for that kind of money? I'm assuming at those prices, they're gonna be in fair condition at best ..and need re-furbishing. Agree that $200 is not a big deal. No doubt we'll be hearing shootouts of the WA and KM, but I'd love to hear a shoot out of the Warm and the Warbler. You can find real 84s for that money if you have patience and have enough cash put aside on hand to be able to jump when one appears.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 14, 2019 22:50:36 GMT -6
I think the KM84 estimates are skewing way low and way high. Normal price for a KM84 in good working order without significant cosmetic damage is about $1100 USD from what I've seen over the last couple of years. That's typical, yes. You can get good ones cheaper but you have to be in the right place and move fast.
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Post by ragan on Feb 14, 2019 22:55:02 GMT -6
In the manual online it says 22mm body diameter. Unless it's a misprint, KK84 no go. I emailed Bryce and asked him. He said he's got a KM84 in his office and the capsules are interchangeable between it and the WA-84.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 14, 2019 23:08:24 GMT -6
Ragan has referenced the gs shoot out where apparently often people chose wrong in a blind test: pause for thought ? On GS an awful lot of people don't know what to listen for.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 14, 2019 23:17:03 GMT -6
I honestly can't say they were ever intended as clones. I "think" the MC012 dates back to the early 60's. The circuit is absolutely not even close. they are very very different. It's just kind of amazing how close they sound when the source is <8". At least that's my experience. I'd take back the pair of KM84i if I could. Very nice mics indeed. I thought the octava mikes were copies of neumanns ? The capsules don't even look similar. The Octava has that "rim" around the front. The Neumann doesn't.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 14, 2019 23:58:29 GMT -6
I had read somewhere in the past that the Russian engineers had copied Neumann so apparently that was wrong but my octava were the joli mod and I thought that voiced them to be more like Neumann 84, but perhaps that too is just internet conjecture?
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 15, 2019 0:01:43 GMT -6
Ragan has referenced the gs shoot out where apparently often people chose wrong in a blind test: pause for thought ? On GS an awful lot of people don't know what to listen for. A blind test should theoretically not matter where it is published? So, if people got a legitimate blind test wrong then the differences may not be as apparent as stated ? But maybe as those of you who have real 84 experience know, if the real magic is in the off axis behaviour unless you test too, is the test thorough enough: arguably not.
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Post by M57 on Feb 15, 2019 5:47:23 GMT -6
On GS an awful lot of people don't know what to listen for. A blind test should theoretically not matter where it is published? So, if people got a legitimate blind test wrong then the differences may not be as apparent as stated ? But maybe as those of you who have real 84 experience know, if the real magic is in the off axis behaviour unless you test too, is the test thorough enough: arguably not. So what might a good off-axis test look like? I'm not talking test-tones. I want a musical example.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 6:07:59 GMT -6
Acoustic guitar 2m behind the mic, in the null/180 degrees?
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 15, 2019 6:20:02 GMT -6
Behind ?
Do you mean in front or 2 meters off centre in front ?
If its in the null, would that only (mostly), capture the capsule's off axis response ?
Thx !
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Post by Ward on Feb 15, 2019 6:54:27 GMT -6
Behind ? Do you mean in front or 2 meters off centre in front ? If its in the null, would that only (mostly), capture the capsule's off axis response ? Thx ! I believe our friend @hermetechmastering was being facetious or joking with you!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 7:08:41 GMT -6
No not at all, I was trying to make a helpful suggestion, but it was just a total guess. Off axis means off axis, no? You can't get much more off axis than 180 degrees behind the mic's capsule, and 2m back would also allow you to capture a lot of other off axis room sound. I'd imagine it would be a great torture test for off axis response, but as I say, just a guess.
But agreed, everyone goes on about how great the KM84's off axis response is, and how this sets it aside from other mics, so a torture test for off axis response for different mics in A/B comparisons would be a great thing. But I don't really have enough mic experience/knowledge to suggest what that might be. I do believe John Epstein suggested something on here before, but I can't remember exactly where!
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 15, 2019 7:17:37 GMT -6
No not at all, I was trying to make a helpful suggestion, but it was just a total guess. Off axis means off axis, no? You can't get much more off axis than 180 degrees behind the mic's capsule, and 2m back would also allow you to capture a lot of other off axis room sound. I'd imagine it would be a great torture test for off axis response, but as I say, just a guess. But agreed, everyone goes on about how great the KM84's off axis response is, and how this sets it aside from other mics, so a torture test for off axis response for different mics in A/B comparisons would be a great thing. But I don't really have enough mic experience/knowledge to suggest what that might be. I do believe John Epstein suggested something on here before, but I can't remember exactly where! Point the mic at your guitar and sing while you play. How does your voice sound in that position. That's much more real world.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 15, 2019 7:25:35 GMT -6
ha ha, ah, you know those 84 mastering gurus: technique is everything, even if we don't understand them !
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