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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 14:26:24 GMT -6
Yeah for sure, I wasn't very clear posting in the Warm thread etc., sorry. I'd be interested to try Warm's Omni capsule in my KM84 body if it's reasonably priced though! I was gonna risk buying just one new KK84 capsule and hoping it would closer match my more "modern" one, but I know I'd always be wondering if I'd bought two new, would they be even closer?
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Warm WA-84
Feb 13, 2019 14:58:25 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by kcatthedog on Feb 13, 2019 14:58:25 GMT -6
A good example of the 80/20 rule ?
At roughly $2200 usd, your real 84’s cost roughly 200% more than the Warm, so peeps need to make a tough economic call, how much is the sonic difference worth to them ?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 15:41:15 GMT -6
Yes exactly! Like I said above, not cheap, but worth it to me. Same reason I'm saving for a custom Lowden acoustic guitar.
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Post by drbill on Feb 13, 2019 18:29:39 GMT -6
A good example of the 80/20 rule ? At roughly $2200 usd, your real 84’s cost roughly 200% more than the Warm, so peeps need to make a tough economic call, how much is the sonic difference worth to them ? Add to that, the investment factor. We don't know how the Warm's will fare, but the 84's will increase in value over time. Of course you have to sell them to net the increase.... My wife knows me too well when I bring up that argument.....
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 13, 2019 18:44:37 GMT -6
Or the utility and opportunity cost arguments ? if the warm or other less expensive mike get the job done and you keep $1500 in your pocket for what ever that has value too ? As usual comes down to personal preference ?
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Post by drbill on Feb 13, 2019 22:30:48 GMT -6
Start with the best of the best closest to the inspirational source, and make compromise down the line somewhere - if you have to. i.e : inspirational instruments, the best mics, great preamps, etc. etc. And of course, personal preference. If people start preferring the warm over Neumann, I'll rethink buying them, and if I love em, I'll consider selling my 84's to put my money elsewhere.
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Warm WA-84
Feb 13, 2019 23:53:50 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by kcatthedog on Feb 13, 2019 23:53:50 GMT -6
I don’t doubt 2 good 84’s are wonderful, but for me here in Canada they will cost somewhere in the $3-4,000 landed, not going to happen
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Post by M57 on Feb 14, 2019 5:25:45 GMT -6
>>If people start preferring the warm over Neumann, I'll rethink buying them, and if I love em, I'll consider selling my 84's to put my money elsewhere. Probably won't happen because of the mystique of the KM-84, but it begs the thought experiment (and this is of course assuming that the Warm is a great mic).. What if the original mic and iconic recordings sounded like the Warm, and the clone sounded like the Nuemann? In other word, how much of this is driven by comfort/familiarity? ..or is this not subjective territory as your statement seems to imply?
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 14, 2019 5:29:53 GMT -6
Ragan has referenced the gs shoot out where apparently often people chose wrong in a blind test: pause for thought ?
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Post by sirthought on Feb 14, 2019 5:36:16 GMT -6
Well it's certainly more about what you are capturing than what equipment you are capturing it with. Yes, studios of varying vintages have turned out masterpieces with gear that is coveted, but the 80s prove that you can have a decade with shitty sounding gear that's en vogue and people still will love songs produced with said gear, buy albums and add them to their favorites list. Then that shitty gear eventually gets replaced, then brought back as a forgotten classic sound, and everyone is jacking up the price on their used forgotten junk in the closet.
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Post by indiehouse on Feb 14, 2019 5:50:05 GMT -6
I don’t doubt 2 good 84’s are wonderful, but for me here in Canada they will cost somewhere in the $3-4,000 landed, not going to happen Wait, so you live in Canada and the exchange rate makes gear more expensive for you? I had no idea...
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 14, 2019 6:24:53 GMT -6
The Cdn $ has tanked vs the greenback over the last few years, so every US $ cost goes up by that amount, either paypal, credit card company and/or bank, all charge you an additional fee for exchanging the money, we also, of course pay shipping, possibly, a brokerage fee, duties of 6-8% and then federal and provincial taxes of another 13-14% , so in total the price in Cdn is roughly 25-30% higher than the US price.
This cuts two ways: buying in US dollars and selling used into the the US market, as, of course, the US buyer has no idea (wouldn't care:)), what having something here in Cdn has cost us when we try to sell back used into the US market. For example my focal 6.5 cost me close to $2500 cdn new and when I sold them I got $1400 usd and change.
If one has a business registration number you can save on the duties and taxes but you either pay a brokerage and an additional shipping fee in Cdn fee or go pick the gear up in the US and do that yourself. I can do that and its at least a 3 hour round trip, I also have to pay a commercial fee for spending my money in the US I guess and get hassled every time I cross the border. I literally got stopped last time for a "routine?" inspection and the bright light border guys tried many times to trip my up on my "story", i.e., telling them the truth that I was just picking up a microphone: PITA.
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Post by sam on Feb 14, 2019 8:48:08 GMT -6
I don’t doubt 2 good 84’s are wonderful, but for me here in Canada they will cost somewhere in the $3-4,000 landed, not going to happen If you really do want 84s I recommend to keep on the hunt. I got a pair from eBay in France for $2700~ CAD said and done, with cases and tuchel to XLR connectors. Even after a service and badge order I still came in under $3k by about $150. Nothing beats the real deal, but I think these Warms will come close
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 14, 2019 9:38:30 GMT -6
Thx Sam, I'll keep an eye out but for now the wa84 fit in the budget, real 84's don't. I sold my octava joli mod sdc a while back so I would like to have some good sdcs again.
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Post by drbill on Feb 14, 2019 10:40:58 GMT -6
>>If people start preferring the warm over Neumann, I'll rethink buying them, and if I love em, I'll consider selling my 84's to put my money elsewhere. Probably won't happen because of the mystique of the KM-84, but it begs the thought experiment (and this is of course assuming that the Warm is a great mic).. What if the original mic and iconic recordings sounded like the Warm, and the clone sounded like the Nuemann? In other word, how much of this is driven by comfort/familiarity? ..or is this not subjective territory as your statement seems to imply? Yeah, that's a valid point. I think a HUGE amount of the love IS comfort and familiarity. Certainly there could have been other mics that were equal or better that never "clicked" with folks for some reason and therefore are not "classics". Some of the Schoeps come to mind. There's a reason that it's a quality choice though. But who knows what will become the de facto standards in 30-50 years from now. Probably not the 184's.
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Post by mcirish on Feb 14, 2019 10:42:27 GMT -6
I can't believe I read this entire thread! I thought I was done buying SDC mics. I had a couple Oktava MC-012 for years and never used them. Then I bought some Beyerdanamic MC930 and also borrowed some mint working KM84i. Then I did the mods to the MC012. After that, I did an entire album with all the mics and did a shootout on every instrument. 4"-8" of the neck/body of a Collings 0002H and a Gibson f5 Fern mandolin; the Oktava and Nuemann sounded interchangeable to my ears and we went back an forth so much that is was getting really anal. Up close, a modded MC012 and KM84 sound very similar. BUT, pulled back a few feet on a piano and the KM84 was a better fit. I think that's due to the better off-axis sound. BUT... The MC930 beat both the others on a yamaha U3 piano, upright bass and most especially... violin. The MC930 was just smoother without the 3-5K slight push that the KM84 and MC012 have. Violin does not need that extra clarity the KM84 gives. Yes, I know the plots do NOT show any bump, but that is not what my ears heard. The KM84 was great a few feet from a piano and also on banjo and guitar. It was hard giving them back even though on close micing the MC012 sounded as close as anything I'd ever heard. So why am I now interested in checking out these Warm mics? This truly is an addiction.
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Post by drbill on Feb 14, 2019 10:43:50 GMT -6
Ragan has referenced the gs shoot out where apparently often people chose wrong in a blind test: pause for thought ? Yeah, perhaps. But I find blind tests don't really help me in day to day recording situations. They are an indicator, but not what I'll base a final decision on. If you really want 84's certainly there are some FS in Canada that wouldn't cost what importing them from the US would. Or as you mentioned, hopefully the Warm 84's will be good enough for your needs. Best of luck with them!!!
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Post by drbill on Feb 14, 2019 10:49:11 GMT -6
I can't believe I read this entire thread! I thought I was done buying SDC mics. I had a couple Oktava MC-012 for years and never used them. Then I bought some Beyerdanamic MC930 and also borrowed some mint working KM84i. Then I did the mods to the MC012. After that, I did an entire album with all the mics and did a shootout on every instrument. 4"-8" of the neck/body of a Collings 0002H and a Gibson f5 Fern mandolin; the Oktava and Nuemann sounded interchangeable to my ears and we went back an forth so much that is was getting really anal. Up close, a modded MC012 and KM84 sound very similar. BUT, pulled back a few feet on a piano and the KM84 was a better fit. I think that's due to the better off-axis sound. BUT... The MC930 beat both the others on a yamaha U3 piano, upright bass and most especially... violin. The MC930 was just smoother without the 3-5K slight push that the KM84 and MC012 have. Violin does not need that extra clarity the KM84 gives. Yes, I know the plots do NOT show any bump, but that is not what my ears heard. The KM84 was great a few feet from a piano and also on banjo and guitar. It was hard giving them back even though on close micing the MC012 sounded as close as anything I'd ever heard. So why am I now interested in checking out these Warm mics? This truly is an addiction. Yes! The Joly modded 012's (or others mod them too) can be EXTREMELY close sounding when they are placed close to the instrument. It's as you begin to pull back that the true essence of the 84 begins to shine.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 14, 2019 10:57:05 GMT -6
Nice, that off axis performance seems to be the thing that people really appreciate about the 84.
The octava are of course the original Russian clone so should be very close but I don't know how well the cap was manufactured and its plus vents positioning were replicated ?
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Post by mcirish on Feb 14, 2019 11:19:19 GMT -6
Nice, that off axis performance seems to be the thing that people really appreciate about the 84. The octava are of course the original Russian clone so should be very close but I don't know how well the cap was manufactured and its plus vents positioning were replicated ? I honestly can't say they were ever intended as clones. I "think" the MC012 dates back to the early 60's. The circuit is absolutely not even close. they are very very different. It's just kind of amazing how close they sound when the source is <8". At least that's my experience. I'd take back the pair of KM84i if I could. Very nice mics indeed.
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Post by Ward on Feb 14, 2019 11:26:39 GMT -6
SNIP I think a HUGE amount of the love IS comfort and familiarity. SNIP Dependability too. You always get something that sounds like you expect so you can rely on it. and that sound is never 'off'.
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Post by stormymondays on Feb 14, 2019 11:30:33 GMT -6
Well, phantom power was invented for the KM84, so you could say that any SDC is a “clone”!
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 14, 2019 11:48:09 GMT -6
Nice, that off axis performance seems to be the thing that people really appreciate about the 84. The octava are of course the original Russian clone so should be very close but I don't know how well the cap was manufactured and its plus vents positioning were replicated ? I honestly can't say they were ever intended as clones. I "think" the MC012 dates back to the early 60's. The circuit is absolutely not even close. they are very very different. It's just kind of amazing how close they sound when the source is <8". At least that's my experience. I'd take back the pair of KM84i if I could. Very nice mics indeed. I thought the octava mikes were copies of neumanns ?
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Post by avgatzeblouz on Feb 14, 2019 14:09:21 GMT -6
I just ordered two new KK84 capsules from Neumann in Germany, been wanting to do it for a while, but the fact that these WA84s will use interchangeable capsules scared me into doing it now, in before the rush! It shouldn't be too hard to flip the old KK84s on Reverb to prospective new WA84 owners. Just a heads up for anyone else wanting to buy new KK84s from Neumann, I was told they will now only sell to companies, not individuals. I had to supply details of my business etc. Now what I am wondering, is when will Warm have Omni caps available, that I could use on my KM84 bodies? Hey, does this mean you will be able to compare the same Neumann capsule on Neumann and Warm bodies ? That would be sick !
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2019 14:15:41 GMT -6
I don't have the Warm and am not intending on purchasing one. If Warm make an Omni capsule I may buy one though, to try it out on the KM84 body.
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