ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,967
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Post by ericn on Dec 19, 2018 16:54:36 GMT -6
Kemper into a Neve pre with some compression should do it.
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Post by Guitar on Dec 19, 2018 16:56:24 GMT -6
Kemper into a Neve pre with some compression should do it. I used to use an SCA N72 "neve pre" that was a pretty ballzy bass sound
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 19, 2018 17:10:20 GMT -6
there are a ton of different things it could be I guess. I've tried all kind of compression - HW and SW - But shouldn't I be able to plug into a nice preamp DI and immediately get a good tone? Point being, it's not the pre I don't think. Maybe it's just my playing...but I'm so tired of getting a spongey, non-percussive sounding tone. I'm trying to get a more percussive attack... Wonder if it's my cheap bass? Squier Classic Vibe (Fiesta red one) Although, I've heard a lot of people say they have the same thing and they think it's great. I'm a guitar player, but have been playing with finger(s) because that's what real players do. I'm good enough to fake it for my songs, but I feel like sometimes the bass is somewhat of an undefined mess. Any suggestions? WEell, I'm partial to playing with my fingers, but I have nails. These days they do wear down a lot faster than when I was young(er) though. However many well respected players do use a pick - or use both, depending on what's needed. Carol Kaye is one well known studio player who always uses a pick.
The suggestion for blending in a bit of distortion is a good one as well, quite a few respected people do that.
Something else you might try gear-wise is swapping out your pickup. I don't know what they're using in the Classic Vibe, but in my pawn shop Squier P-bass i got significant benefit from swapping in a relatively in expensive Bill Lawrence with Alnico-2 magnets (IIRC). I also had to add a brass shielding plate to the cavity as the bass didn't come with one stock. For a bit more money Lindy Fralin makes some great pickups.
Another big difference is the type of string you use. Roto-sound Swing Bass have that bright, "stringy" quality, half round/Brite Flats are a bit less extreme, flatwounds don't have a whole lot of upper harmonic content.
There are a lot of variables.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 19, 2018 17:16:57 GMT -6
Resist hitting the solo button when you dial in the bass and kick. Get the whole mix going and HPF and over drive it until your mix starts jumping out of the speakers with dynamics. If you don't all you'll end up with is a flat up against the wall sounding mix and it's because all the bandwidth most speakers can handle is eaten up by all those sub freq's. ^^^^THIS^^^^
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 19, 2018 17:34:18 GMT -6
I appreciate all the responses...but I get the whole mixing aspect of it. I already use distortion sometimes and of course compression. Maybe I’m just not explaining myself well, but the punchy sound I’m talking about really happens before it’s committed. The rest of those things are fixing what was lacking in the first place. I’m well versed in that lol. I honestly think What I’m missing has more to do with playing technique, quality of my intstrument/pickups, preamp.
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Post by wiz on Dec 19, 2018 17:51:30 GMT -6
I plug my Classic Vibe Jazz Bass into a V72 with a DI added to it.
I track that, but its certainly not a finished sound.
Once I put it out through my Soundcraft Delta with My Drip LA2A over it.. its a really good sound....
Then its just a matter of tucking it at mix time...
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by nudwig on Dec 19, 2018 17:57:10 GMT -6
I have to agree on how my perception of what to capture changed when I heard a bunch of stems of big songs, perviously mentioned Beatles tracks included. Way more distortion and way less bass that it sounds in the track. I use a pick, I have these fancy Tusq picks that work way better for me than any others on bass. I've found it all starts with my technique then the bass then everything after. The ZOD definitely helps and I love it going into the UAD Ampeg SVT if I'm not using an amp, however my bass and my playing still sounds like me no matter the chain so I'll adjust that first depending on the song. I also find filtering around 45-50hz on the way in helps me get there quicker.
And thanks everyone for the tips, great ideas of new stuff to try.
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Post by notneeson on Dec 19, 2018 18:24:25 GMT -6
I appreciate all the responses...but I get the whole mixing aspect of it. I already use distortion sometimes and of course compression. Maybe I’m just not explaining myself well, but the punchy sound I’m talking about really happens before it’s committed. The rest of those things are fixing what was lacking in the first place. I’m well versed in that lol. I honestly think What I’m missing has more to do with playing technique, quality of my intstrument/pickups, preamp. Performance wise, I think punchiness often relates to pocket, FWIW.
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Post by christopher on Dec 19, 2018 18:32:40 GMT -6
Re-reading your original post, I’m thinking you are right it’s probably the bass. You can try new strings, setup, new pickup, that should be cheapeast way to help. I’ve gotten to play some high end basses, and yeah the controlled percussive attack is there, followed by a long sustain that is instantly usable. The cheap basses I never get that experience.
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Post by svart on Dec 19, 2018 19:29:01 GMT -6
I guess I'm not understanding what you mean by punch then..
Maybe new strings and when you finger them, do more of a pluck with the tip of your finger and nail to get more attack?
Or switch to a heavy flat pick?
Or can you give us examples of your bass tone and an example of what you want it to sound like?
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Post by mulmany on Dec 19, 2018 19:59:26 GMT -6
Johnkenn, get the bass set up. That's a big help. You can also go to a lighter gauge string. Getting the pickup/string height correct and the intonation set really well goes a long way.
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Post by guitfiddler on Dec 19, 2018 20:13:48 GMT -6
Genz-Benz Shuttle 9.0 into a BagEnd S15-XD! Game over! Lol!
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 20, 2018 0:13:43 GMT -6
See if you can find an old Ampex 601a that's been converted into a single channel preamp that they've put a DI in as well...... I have one here that has several different loading selections from taps on the transformer that was put in, goes down to 50onm's I think even. I know I took that to a session once and the bass player wouldn't shut up about how he'd never gotten so much balls and fattness from his bass. He was playing some Warwick'ish bass and I've always felt those are great basses, but when it comes to punch and power I've never thought they can muster that up, always always I ask the player to use a P Bass or Jazz, P bass first though.
Now, you could definitely upgrade your pickups and change out the electronics, that will get you 80% of the way to a USA P Bass. Also, checkout MojoTone.com and see if you can just buy one of their drop in vintage plates with all the electronics pre wired. For pickups if you really want balls and punch I'd say look at active EMG's....... I have this shitty guitar that is a Strat body and an Ibanez neck, but it has active EMG pickups and it freaking sounds great. It's even got a little switch that I can go from active to passive, those pickups are really great. Even as others have said with the strings, maybe try heavier strings and use a pick, those picks made from Tusk or whatever do have a sound to them.
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Post by reddirt on Dec 20, 2018 2:50:53 GMT -6
These are all very useful and dynamite suggestions but at the risk of appearing to be a self interested arse pain, I feel they could obscure the point of my previous post i.e playing ability is the single biggest determinant in how useable a sound is. I'm not truly au fait with John's ability on bass but know his vocal and songwriting to be top drawer so maybe his standards are writing a cheque that his bass playing abilities can't quite cash at the moment. I don't know, I'm just throwing it out there to pull us back from (as we often do) throwing money at an issue that may just need more work. Is there any merit in thinking this way John. Cheers, Ross
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Dec 20, 2018 3:56:22 GMT -6
Johnkenn, Those squires are built really nicely for the money. The pickups on them are fairly average so try swapping them out before getting a new bass. I am primarily a guitarist and don't consider myself an expert bassist. I have found using a pick gives me better and more consistent percussive attack. I now use a pick both recording and live. My poor finger technique is the culprit but I don't have time or patients to practice.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 20, 2018 6:47:45 GMT -6
I had Oteil Burbridge in for a session and he only had a 5 string that he didn’t want to play. I had my American Vintage ‘62 P with TI flats on it and offered it for him to use.
That bass plugged into a B15.... blew me away completely. It was amazing how different it sounded with me playing vs a serious serious pro playing the same exact gear.
It’s mainly in the hands....
Gear wise - I swear by the di input on the Hairball Lola preamps for bass.
John, what’s your favorite bass sound? Any benchmark records or songs that you really dig the bass sound on?
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Post by svart on Dec 20, 2018 7:24:00 GMT -6
Johnkenn, Those squires are built really nicely for the money. The pickups on them are fairly average so try swapping them out before getting a new bass. I am primarily a guitarist and don't consider myself an expert bassist. I have found using a pick gives me better and more consistent percussive attack. I now use a pick both recording and live. My poor finger technique is the culprit but I don't have time or patients to practice. I have a squire J someone gave me. I stripped and repainted it, changed the bridge to a billet bridge from the stamped soapdish and routed it for P bass neck pickups to go with the J bridge for my own PJ bass.. I swapped out the squire pickups with fender american pickups that people pull out of basses to "upgrade". Got those for around 30$ on ebay. Most folks who come into the studio end up choosing my bass over their americans because the squire neck profiles are much nicer to play and the billet bridge makes it more solid feeling when fingering, but the bass sounds as good or better than an american fender due to the pickups.
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Post by lcr on Dec 20, 2018 8:12:25 GMT -6
What helped my bass sound was when I started not boosting any bottom and boosting 8k shelf (to taste often agressively) and a low pass at 10hz. This boost was a popular SSL boost for bass and I do it with my SSL channel strip plugin flavor of the week. This really helps the bass cut. This is pre comp eq into typical SSL comp (a few lights of reduction 3:1 or so) I do usually blend a light amount of waves R bass which is fattening up the bottom, less is more usually. Usually 70hz high pass on the SSL channel strip and again with pro eq after R bass. Of course cut any low mid mud if needed (scary scary, thin mix!) lately boosting a little around 600hz or so.
Edit : lo pass at 10k (not 10hz!!)
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Post by mikec on Dec 20, 2018 9:45:29 GMT -6
Being a guitar player primarily and not wanting to spend a lot of money on a bass, I noticed a notable improvement in my Bass tone from the Ibanez SR500 bass I have to the Fender Elite P-Bass I finally broke down and purchased last year.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 20, 2018 10:38:18 GMT -6
Think I’m gonna grab some fender precision pickups
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Post by kilroyrock on Dec 20, 2018 11:40:31 GMT -6
Think I’m gonna grab some fender precision pickups Get the SD basslines if you are changing pickups. Ampeg emulation is usually pretty good, I use the 11r one and never hear complaints
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 20, 2018 11:54:54 GMT -6
I appreciate all the responses...but I get the whole mixing aspect of it. I already use distortion sometimes and of course compression. Maybe I’m just not explaining myself well, but the punchy sound I’m talking about really happens before it’s committed. The rest of those things are fixing what was lacking in the first place. I’m well versed in that lol. I honestly think What I’m missing has more to do with playing technique, quality of my intstrument/pickups, preamp. And possibly the lack of an Ampeg B-15N (B-18, SB-12....)
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 20, 2018 12:37:50 GMT -6
I'm sure John will poo poo this, but I've been using the UAD B-15 for a while now. Anyway - I'm really pretty happy with this. Here's new strings - which made a really big difference, the B-15--API EQ--DBX 160. My apologies to all the real bass players on the forum BASSchain.mp3 (769.04 KB)
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Post by nudwig on Dec 20, 2018 13:57:38 GMT -6
I'd try new pickups. I feel like my P-bass grabs more from the start that what you have here. I can see where you have to fight for tone.
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Post by drsax on Dec 20, 2018 14:03:28 GMT -6
I appreciate all the responses...but I get the whole mixing aspect of it. I already use distortion sometimes and of course compression. Maybe I’m just not explaining myself well, but the punchy sound I’m talking about really happens before it’s committed. The rest of those things are fixing what was lacking in the first place. I’m well versed in that lol. I honestly think What I’m missing has more to do with playing technique, quality of my intstrument/pickups, preamp. You’re on the right track. Regardless of gear used, if you’re not getting the right basic sound you want straight in from the bass, I would look at the instrument, the pick ups, the strings, or some combination of those things.
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