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Post by mcirish on Oct 19, 2018 21:34:32 GMT -6
Hey guys, I recently got a Yamaha U3 and began using it on recordings. Now that I'm over half way through tracking, I notice tuning variances. I can only attribute them to the piano be stretch tuned while the other instruments are not. The piano was professionally tuned and calibrated before we did the tracking. Is this slight chorusing something I just need to get used to or do you tune instruments to the piano in the range they most play in? It's a bit frustrating. my old sampled pianos never had tuning oddness.. JK  |
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Post by drbill on Oct 19, 2018 21:58:33 GMT -6
It's just a part of life. Trying to fit those pesky 12 tones all within an octave when the math doesn't "work"..... Or perhaps you're hearing something else? Maybe get a better piano tuner? Either way, as a keyboard player, I've just grown used to it over decades.... I know it does drive guys with perfect pitch crazy though. BTW, sampled piano's don't go out of tune on the note itself. With a real piano, you have multiple strings per note, and if one goes out, you hear the chorusing. Also, I've had to have piano tuners come in between songs. Even takes. All depends on the piano itself and how well it holds, and how the player is playing it. Real piano's in recording sessions require constant attention to voicing and tuning - or an owner who doesn't care too much about it. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 19, 2018 22:02:29 GMT -6
So I do ALOT of piano recordings. Pretty much my thing right now. Its all classical stuff but still.
Tuning is a huge deal for us. And anytime we have a recording our tech is there. He usually tunes the piano for 2-3 hours before we start. He's very VERY good and VERY sensitive to it. So some things to consider while you're using a real piano.
How's your climate control? Not just the temp but also the humidity? Some piano's can be VERY touchy about that. 1º change in temp can cause the piano to start to go flat or sharp increasing as the temp changes. If the humidity starts changing a lot the piano usually freaks out and sections start going flat or sharp at the same time.
On that note, where did the piano come from? Local? Been there its whole life? If it came from somewhere hotter/dryer or more humid it'll take a few years before it settles.
We always leave the tech on hand in the control room. Soon as either he or I or the artist hear something we don't like or a key isn't responding how the artist wants. Bam. He goes and touches it up.
Our piano's are Steinways, we have 3. A 1892 one. Horowitz's CD18 from the 1940s(yes THAT Horowitz's and yes his real piano), and a new Hamburg D from Germany. The Hamburg one is the most stable one we have. CD18 is by far the most picky one and depending on how the weather is outside and how our humidity and temp control can keep up in the hall it can be a nightmare to keep in tune. Or great. Seraphina(the 1892 one) is decent. But has its moments of attitude.
Then there is the music you are playing and how the player is playing it. Is it softer and lyrical? Or loud rocking and hammer time?! If its the latter, that can contribute to stuff slipping out as well pretty quickly.
I've never done a session where the piano gets tuned at the beginning and the piano sounds just a good as when we started. Im very lucky to get to work where I do now where we have the tech on hand at all times, it really makes a big difference.
Anyways, I know thats not THAT helpful for you. But is at least some things to look at, particularly the climate control and whats happening in the room over the session temperature/humidity wise.
The strech tuning should not make for a chorusing. If the piano sound like its chorusing then the internal strings(there are 3 per note for most the piano) are starting to wander most likely.
Also, not all tech/tuners are the same. Could always try a different tuner next time too.
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 19, 2018 22:03:19 GMT -6
It's just a part of life. Trying to fit those pesky 12 tones all within an octave when the math doesn't "work"..... Or perhaps you're hearing something else? Maybe get a better piano tuner? Either way, as a keyboard player, I've just grown used to it over decades.... I know it does drive guys with perfect pitch crazy though. BTW, sampled piano's don't go out of tune on the note itself. With a real piano, you have multiple strings per note, and if one goes out, you hear the chorusing. Also, I've had to have piano tuners come in between songs. Even takes. All depends on the piano itself and how well it holds, and how the player is playing it. haha beat me too it! |
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Post by drbill on Oct 19, 2018 22:06:35 GMT -6
It's just a part of life. Trying to fit those pesky 12 tones all within an octave when the math doesn't "work"..... Or perhaps you're hearing something else? Maybe get a better piano tuner? Either way, as a keyboard player, I've just grown used to it over decades.... I know it does drive guys with perfect pitch crazy though. BTW, sampled piano's don't go out of tune on the note itself. With a real piano, you have multiple strings per note, and if one goes out, you hear the chorusing. Also, I've had to have piano tuners come in between songs. Even takes. All depends on the piano itself and how well it holds, and how the player is playing it. haha beat me too it! Haha!! And you beat me to the humidity issues. And yeah, a piano can take years or even a decade to break in. As I said, it's a constant commitment. Not a one time purchase / setup. |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,940 
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Post by ericn on Oct 19, 2018 22:21:16 GMT -6
Yeah with a piano climate control is everything if you want to keep it in tune! Don’t mess with those crappy little things you mount on the piano get a real humidifier and dehumidifier if your somewhere with 4 seasons!
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Post by popmann on Oct 19, 2018 23:21:10 GMT -6
My U3 is super hard to get recorded in tune. With a fresh tuning, i mean....better sampled pianos DO have the issue if you collapse them to mono. The trick ends up being to find the mic placement that sounds the most in tune in stereo and...thats it. Whole front comes off....ribbons can go up by the hammers (usually above my head)....but condensers stay in the kick board area.
Got nothing to do with stretch tuning. If youre using a sampled piano that wasnt sampled stretched, el....yuck. I think uprights have complex’er phase stuff going on with the overlapping bass strings. Makes simple chords have more beating resonances....
I mostly dont now. I keep it in tune end ugh to play and write with. Use samples for recordings.
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Post by keymod on Oct 20, 2018 5:04:17 GMT -6
All good info, but someone please address the issue of stretch tuning while playing in a non-classical/jazz setting. I would imagine that any pop/rock/other recordings would work out better with the piano tuned at even intervals, since most other instruments can't be played "stretched". Am I wrong about this? Does it matter?
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Post by mcirish on Oct 20, 2018 6:42:29 GMT -6
Thanks for all the posts. The piano is in near new condition. It was rebuilt with new hammers and strings. There is no chorusing sound in the piano itself. It's mainly the slight pitch variances with other instruments. I may have to track a few of those instruments again and tune against the a particular note on the piano in it's specific range. I may be a bit anal on this. I'm very focused on pitch, though I don't have perfect pitch.
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Post by mcirish on Oct 20, 2018 6:46:41 GMT -6
I forgot to add that the temp is always 68-70 and humidity is kept between 45-50. The room is pretty stable.
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 20, 2018 9:18:26 GMT -6
All good info, but someone please address the issue of stretch tuning while playing in a non-classical/jazz setting. I would imagine that any pop/rock/other recordings would work out better with the piano tuned at even intervals, since most other instruments can't be played "stretched". Am I wrong about this? Does it matter? Shouldn't matter. Though I guess depends on what instrument and player. Again it could also be the tuner. If the piano isn't stretched it does not sound good haha But stretching it too far isn't good either. I forgot to add that the temp is always 68-70 and humidity is kept between 45-50. The room is pretty stable. 50 is a bit high. Id try keeping the room more at 40-45. temp is great though! |
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Post by yotonic on Oct 20, 2018 9:48:58 GMT -6
Great thread! Nice to see so many guys using real pianos.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 20, 2018 10:13:09 GMT -6
I have 2 different people tune for me. They work with each other under the same banner. One delivers a more diffuse sounding tuning, the other seems more aligned to pop music with guitars. They are bemused when i mention the difference to them.
The piano tuning always seems different 3 hours later, then 3 hours again, then the next day. Nothing i do is ever hypercritical, it’s almost always support overdubs, but i totally get that you’d need someone onsight for constant touchups were it the focus of the session. Adjustments for key changes with guitars, etc.
I occasionally see similar problems with certain mixes of guitars that have different neck and length styles. We’ve had to tune chord per chord on overdubs sometimes.
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Post by M57 on Oct 20, 2018 10:36:57 GMT -6
I have a Kawaii RX-2 in my home studio. I've had it for ~20 years and it's been in its current location for about 5 years. I keep the temperature in the room pretty stable all year, but the humidity is something I have little control over. Most humidification systems I've tried either don't work well or they leave a residue on the everything. Regardless I find myself constantly tuning my piano. I pretty much agree with everything everyone has said so far. I'm not a piano tuner, but my piano is pretty stable and easy to tune - AND I have a fantastic program (Tunelab) that I run on an iPad. I've been tuning my piano myself for at least 15 years now.
Before I talk about the stretch, I want to point out that I'm tempted to agree with previous posters that it's very likely not the stretch that's the problem - It's much more likely the fact that the piano is falling out of tune. I am CONSTANTLY retuning strings on my piano, and not uncommonly a few during a session. If a string is more than a half a cent out of tune (relative to it's sister strings), it drives me NUTS.
RE: the stretch. This is a quite sophisticated subject, which I admittedly don't have a deep understanding of, but the program I use, Tunelab lets me dial in the stretch using a number of different parameters based on harmonics OR by just dragging the deviation curve on the GUI. Bottom line - I have tuned my piano to test a number of different stretches using trial and error to arrive at the one that speaks to me. As you probably know, more stretch = more 'life', and less stretch = duller. If I recall, the one I arrived at is stretched just a tad more on the higher strings than on the lower. I like the energy of a good stretch and I don't play a lot at the very edges of the keyboard anyway. When I do it's more likely to be in octaves or for effect so I think the effect of the stretch is somewhat mitigated by the way I play. E.g. if I played a lot of triads up top I might have chosen to stretch things a tad less. Regardless, I don't feel like the stretch is fighting with my synths or anything.
Another thought.. the more mics I use, the more phase issues I seem to be fighting. Even a stereo pair can give me fits, and I've tried a bazillion different positions and techniques. It always seems like what worked yesterday isn't working today. If I had to guess, I'd say your issues are much more likely to be tied to unison tuning of strings and/or mic positioning.
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Post by popmann on Oct 20, 2018 10:39:44 GMT -6
All good info, but someone please address the issue of stretch tuning while playing in a non-classical/jazz setting. I would imagine that any pop/rock/other recordings would work out better with the piano tuned at even intervals, since most other instruments can't be played "stretched". Am I wrong about this? Does it matter? Sure, a piano HAS to be stretch tuned. Otherwise, it doesnt sound like a piano. As a related note, still 440 is not contexutally “correct” for A unless its the root of an A chord. In my experience, if youre keeping up with piano tuning....meaning its kept up to concert, the strech is irrelevant. If you dont eant to take my word for it, how is it that Steely Dan is based on stretch tuned pianos and EPs...and could there have been a more OCD studio artist? If its not kept up to pitch, you tune guitars to the piano. But, still, you pick a calibration note and tune to it (root note usually makes sense)....becuase a guitarist needs the guitar in tune to itself. Relatively correct. Meaning you cant hope to tune all the open strings to whatever variance on the piano and hope the guitarist keeps chords in tune. but, to the OP, to reiterate, mine IS about 6 or 7 years young....can be freshly tuned by my fave guy....which yes, matters a lot who tunes it....sounding lovely....put up mics, and its a little chorusy. Which is why i posted. Love to find a solution. But, the good recordings iVe made have been simply too much work—song in a different key and you start over. Thats a completely different phenomenon from stretch tuned versus the 1990s shitty sample paradigm of the “440 piano”. Synth makers included it for the purposes of lyers with other instruments, not for “pop tuning standards”. On of the worst parts of electric piano sampling has been all too often they make them 440....which no one tuned them to....happily, the Kronos can stretch anything, so you can have your stretch sampled piano and add a synth layer, and tell it to stretch that....much better solution that the shortsighted solution of the 90s synths to provide a 440 piano for layers. |
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Post by christopher on Oct 20, 2018 12:09:57 GMT -6
Hmmm.. stretch tuning is something I never learned about. This has been a great thread! Forgive me if I'm using the wrong lingo here.. it makes me wonder though, how does it work? Wiki says they tune the octaves so that the octave is stretched slightly. So do the octave overtones, aka the "beats", do they still tune it to harmonize in a perfect octave, i.e. the beats fade away to inaudible? Or with stretch is it intentionally audible as 'beats' present? I wonder if this is how I tune my guitar?.. I use the tuner to perfect cents, then I take it the rest of the way listening for beats playing octaves and chords until it's best compromise / most musical sounding.
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 20, 2018 12:15:17 GMT -6
I have 2 different people tune for me. They work with each other under the same banner. One delivers a more diffuse sounding tuning, the other seems more aligned to pop music with guitars. They are bemused when i mention the difference to them. The piano tuning always seems different 3 hours later, then 3 hours again, then the next day. Nothing i do is ever hypercritical, it’s almost always support overdubs, but i totally get that you’d need someone onsight for constant touchups were it the focus of the session. Adjustments for key changes with guitars, etc. I occasionally see similar problems with certain mixes of guitars that have different neck and length styles. We’ve had to tune chord per chord on overdubs sometimes. Of course guitars are never 100% in tune with themselves. It's physically impossible. In critical cases some people retune the guitar for each passage to deal with this. |
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Post by popmann on Oct 20, 2018 13:04:58 GMT -6
My piano tuner spends about 20min AFTER tuning playing the instrument and touching up....so, yes, just like youre adjusting for context as does he....but the strech is mostly static. I mean the stretch is done before he starts playing— that is more like tuning the open strings of the guitar.
Whats a little closer is using sweetened guitar intonation/tuning schemes. But, one of the reasons that things like the Buzz Fieten system failed to take hold is what John Suhr says about it—that customers didnt ONLY play guitars with that system, and one you get subconsciously used to dynamicly changing finger pressure based on regular, Buzz’s isnt as in tune and visa versa, so people tend to just use one way.
Guitarists dont often consciously think theyre dynamically retuning things as they play....but, you do....for better, and Ive heard plenty for worse.
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Post by Vincent R. on Oct 20, 2018 13:54:21 GMT -6
Just reading and taking notes. This is great info.
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Post by popmann on Oct 20, 2018 18:07:44 GMT -6
I remember this comment stuck in my mind, because I had just bought a Kronos....whose EP1 hybrid modeling/sampling electric piano engine DOES allows stretch tuning (he says "unless there's something new I don't know about")....
....just in case anyone doubted the Steely Dan reference.
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Post by lando on Oct 21, 2018 2:15:30 GMT -6
Sampled instruments are generally stretch tuned as well, definitely most of not all pianos.
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Post by Ward on Oct 21, 2018 6:38:12 GMT -6
Isn't stretched tuning the norm? It certainly seems that way. I trained on 'classical' piano for 15 years (and didn't love every minute of it) and played on many exquisite pianos in various halls and theaters and none of them ever sounded perfectly in tune, and it drove me nuts. It still does. I've just learned to calm myself and accept the reality that is mathematically impossible for any polyphonic instrument to sound in-tune. As previously mentioned. The lack of a perfectly tuned piano didn't ruin any beatles recordings.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 21, 2018 7:15:50 GMT -6
I know a guy who will walk in to a freshly tuned piano and declare it out of tune. He’s kinda miserable all the time!
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Post by mcirish on Oct 21, 2018 7:47:23 GMT -6
I know a guy who will walk in to a freshly tuned piano and declare it out of tune. He’s kinda miserable all the time! Uh oh. Maybe I'm that guy?! Seriously, thank you all for the insights. We retracked a lot yesterday against the tuning of the piano. I checked the piano tuning a lot more closely. The tuner did have it two cents sharp. Hmmm. Even so, I had trouble with getting a mandolin to sound right when doubling a few piano lines. Tuned the mandolin 12 times over 12 takes and I'm still not satisfied. Adding a little room reverb to it helped to mask what I was hearing but there's definitely still something going on. Note, the band does not hear a problem. It's just in my ears. The parts done on a Collins 0002h sound fine. The Gison Fern mandolin parts are what's making me crazy. I triple checked the mandolin intonation and have a fresh set of strings. Maybe I will do a quick mix of a section so the rest of you can say I'm crazy too. Lol |
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Post by Guitar on Oct 21, 2018 8:08:03 GMT -6
I've had those moments before. Sometimes you have to psych yourself out of it as to not go too far down a wormhole.
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