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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 21, 2018 10:40:58 GMT -6
I know a guy who will walk in to a freshly tuned piano and declare it out of tune. He’s kinda miserable all the time! Uh oh. Maybe I'm that guy?! Seriously, thank you all for the insights. We retracked a lot yesterday against the tuning of the piano. I checked the piano tuning a lot more closely. The tuner did have it two cents sharp. Hmmm. Even so, I had trouble with getting a mandolin to sound right when doubling a few piano lines. Tuned the mandolin 12 times over 12 takes and I'm still not satisfied. Adding a little room reverb to it helped to mask what I was hearing but there's definitely still something going on. Note, the band does not hear a problem. It's just in my ears. The parts done on a Collins 0002h sound fine. The Gison Fern mandolin parts are what's making me crazy. I triple checked the mandolin intonation and have a fresh set of strings. Maybe I will do a quick mix of a section so the rest of you can say I'm crazy too. Lol Thats something you should ask the tuner too. Where does he like to tune it and how much does he stretch it. For us for instance, we tune to 440.5. Why? Idk. Just what Mike likes to do our tech. No one has ever complained though and the strings always just tune to the piano. Are you tuning to the piano or a tuner? The mandolin that is.
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Post by Quint on Oct 21, 2018 12:35:11 GMT -6
I have a Kawaii RX-2 in my home studio. I've had it for ~20 years and it's been in its current location for about 5 years. I keep the temperature in the room pretty stable all year, but the humidity is something I have little control over. Most humidification systems I've tried either don't work well or they leave a residue on the everything. Regardless I find myself constantly tuning my piano. I pretty much agree with everything everyone has said so far. I'm not a piano tuner, but my piano is pretty stable and easy to tune - AND I have a fantastic program (Tunelab) that I run on an iPad. I've been tuning my piano myself for at least 15 years now. Before I talk about the stretch, I want to point out that I'm tempted to agree with previous posters that it's very likely not the stretch that's the problem - It's much more likely the fact that the piano is falling out of tune. I am CONSTANTLY retuning strings on my piano, and not uncommonly a few during a session. If a string is more than a half a cent out of tune (relative to it's sister strings), it drives me NUTS. RE: the stretch. This is a quite sophisticated subject, which I admittedly don't have a deep understanding of, but the program I use, Tunelab lets me dial in the stretch using a number of different parameters based on harmonics OR by just dragging the deviation curve on the GUI. Bottom line - I have tuned my piano to test a number of different stretches using trial and error to arrive at the one that speaks to me. As you probably know, more stretch = more 'life', and less stretch = duller. If I recall, the one I arrived at is stretched just a tad more on the higher strings than on the lower. I like the energy of a good stretch and I don't play a lot at the very edges of the keyboard anyway. When I do it's more likely to be in octaves or for effect so I think the effect of the stretch is somewhat mitigated by the way I play. E.g. if I played a lot of triads up top I might have chosen to stretch things a tad less. Regardless, I don't feel like the stretch is fighting with my synths or anything. Another thought.. the more mics I use, the more phase issues I seem to be fighting. Even a stereo pair can give me fits, and I've tried a bazillion different positions and techniques. It always seems like what worked yesterday isn't working today. If I had to guess, I'd say your issues are much more likely to be tied to unison tuning of strings and/or mic positioning. I need to try Tunelab out. It would be great if I had a reliable way to make mid session adjustments as needed without having to call in a tuner to come do it. How critical is the mic quality and placement to getting an accurate reading?
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Post by M57 on Oct 21, 2018 18:07:18 GMT -6
I need to try Tunelab out. It would be great if I had a reliable way to make mid session adjustments as needed without having to call in a tuner to come do it. How critical is the mic quality and placement to getting an accurate reading? Believe it or not, with an iPad the built in mic is all you need. After my first iPad died I purchased a Mini and it sits inside my piano and is used exclusively for tuning. Depending on where you put it there always seems to be dead spots (usually an octave apart) where the program has a hard time identifying the frequency. Moving the iPad a foot or so seems to take care of the problem. All you need is a tuning hammer and a couple of wedges. Once you get things up and running you'll soon figure out a few tricks of the trade. For instance, striking the key as you apply pressure to the hammer can help you move the pitch in smaller increments.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Oct 21, 2018 21:12:29 GMT -6
I know a guy who will walk in to a freshly tuned piano and declare it out of tune. He’s kinda miserable all the time! Uh oh. Maybe I'm that guy?! Seriously, thank you all for the insights. We retracked a lot yesterday against the tuning of the piano. I checked the piano tuning a lot more closely. The tuner did have it two cents sharp. Hmmm. Even so, I had trouble with getting a mandolin to sound right when doubling a few piano lines. Tuned the mandolin 12 times over 12 takes and I'm still not satisfied. Adding a little room reverb to it helped to mask what I was hearing but there's definitely still something going on. Note, the band does not hear a problem. It's just in my ears. The parts done on a Collins 0002h sound fine. The Gison Fern mandolin parts are what's making me crazy. I triple checked the mandolin intonation and have a fresh set of strings. Maybe I will do a quick mix of a section so the rest of you can say I'm crazy too. Lol Mandolins can be a giant pain in the ass, especially the A strings and it’s even more of a bitch when you add in a piano. Is it an older Gibson?
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Post by Ward on Oct 22, 2018 8:42:31 GMT -6
Uh oh. Maybe I'm that guy?! Seriously, thank you all for the insights. We retracked a lot yesterday against the tuning of the piano. I checked the piano tuning a lot more closely. The tuner did have it two cents sharp. Hmmm. Even so, I had trouble with getting a mandolin to sound right when doubling a few piano lines. Tuned the mandolin 12 times over 12 takes and I'm still not satisfied. Adding a little room reverb to it helped to mask what I was hearing but there's definitely still something going on. Note, the band does not hear a problem. It's just in my ears. The parts done on a Collins 0002h sound fine. The Gison Fern mandolin parts are what's making me crazy. I triple checked the mandolin intonation and have a fresh set of strings. Maybe I will do a quick mix of a section so the rest of you can say I'm crazy too. Lol Mandolins can be a giant pain in the ass, especially the A strings and it’s even more of a bitch when you add in a piano. Is it an older Gibson? \\ Well, although they don't sounds better . . . an Eastman F series mandolin sounds a LOT more in -tune than a Gibson Mandolin. just saying. And that's why I own one.
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Post by Ward on Oct 22, 2018 8:45:23 GMT -6
Oh good grief. That's horrible. Nothing worse than a piano tuned above pitch! Sharp = bitter, flat = sour. It's a hard trade off, but I'll take a piano tuned from 435-439 over one tuned to 441-442 any day. 440.5, would still drive nuts.
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 22, 2018 9:04:30 GMT -6
Oh good grief. That's horrible. Nothing worse than a piano tuned above pitch! Sharp = bitter, flat = sour. It's a hard trade off, but I'll take a piano tuned from 435-439 over one tuned to 441-442 any day. 440.5, would still drive nuts. haha idk why he does it. But it doesn't bother me or anyone that plays here.
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Post by mcirish on Oct 22, 2018 9:32:14 GMT -6
Uh oh. Maybe I'm that guy?! Seriously, thank you all for the insights. We retracked a lot yesterday against the tuning of the piano. I checked the piano tuning a lot more closely. The tuner did have it two cents sharp. Hmmm. Even so, I had trouble with getting a mandolin to sound right when doubling a few piano lines. Tuned the mandolin 12 times over 12 takes and I'm still not satisfied. Adding a little room reverb to it helped to mask what I was hearing but there's definitely still something going on. Note, the band does not hear a problem. It's just in my ears. The parts done on a Collins 0002h sound fine. The Gison Fern mandolin parts are what's making me crazy. I triple checked the mandolin intonation and have a fresh set of strings. Maybe I will do a quick mix of a section so the rest of you can say I'm crazy too. Lol Mandolins can be a giant pain in the ass, especially the A strings and it’s even more of a bitch when you add in a piano. Is it an older Gibson? Nah, It's a 2015 Fern signed by David Harvey. It's a very well made and great sounding mandolin. Some very old Gibsons had frets in the wrong place (Loar era) which made them impossible to play in tune. This one doesn't appear to have that problem. It is a challenging instrument though.
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Post by Vincent R. on Oct 22, 2018 11:26:06 GMT -6
From piano and now to mandolin.... this Italian singer is still taking notes,
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 22, 2018 12:24:36 GMT -6
My piano tuner spends about 20min AFTER tuning playing the instrument and touching up....so, yes, just like youre adjusting for context as does he....but the strech is mostly static. I mean the stretch is done before he starts playing— that is more like tuning the open strings of the guitar. Whats a little closer is using sweetened guitar intonation/tuning schemes. But, one of the reasons that things like the Buzz Fieten system failed to take hold is what John Suhr says about it—that customers didnt ONLY play guitars with that system, and one you get subconsciously used to dynamicly changing finger pressure based on regular, Buzz’s isnt as in tune and visa versa, so people tend to just use one way. Guitarists dont often consciously think theyre dynamically retuning things as they play....but, you do....for better, and Ive heard plenty for worse. Actually the Buzz Feinten - and other schemes like "spaghetti frets" never caught on because they don't really work, all they do is move the problem around. "sweetened" tunings help a bit - as long as things don't get too complicated musically - but the problem remains. The root problem is that the mathematics of the 12 tone scale are wrong, there's no way to divide an octave into 12 tones that conform to the harmonic series. There's an excellent article by Jack Endino that explains the problem.
I do not personally retune by the passage when recording - I'm a rhythm guitarist and it really doesn't work for chords - unless you retune for each chord.
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Post by popmann on Oct 22, 2018 12:54:23 GMT -6
See "don't aren't often conscious of....".
Of course it "works for chords"....it's the only time I'm even remotely conscious of it--and why AS what I consider primarily a rhythm guitarist I don't live and die by barre or open chords. The "E form" barre is much easier to intonate nicely played as individual notes without the root. Picking hard will take care of sharpening the low 5th, and you raise the B string with your index finger a tad.
if you play a major voiced on the middle strings, not being able to flatten the third (on the D string) means that pull the root and fifth both sharp makes that chord's harmonics ring truer as a properly intonated major. Without regard to the cents of tuning that it puts that relative to some other instrument, the in tune with itself triad sounds better nearly all the time.
Just as examples.
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Post by jazznoise on Oct 23, 2018 3:25:11 GMT -6
There's a good book on this specific issue called How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony And Why You Should Care. From my understanding, fretless stringed players tend to edge towards Just intervals on chords, specifically the 3rds. However 1st Violin when taking the melody might go for something deliberately sharper like a Pythagorean type tuning to stand out more.
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Post by M57 on Oct 23, 2018 4:30:26 GMT -6
There's a good book on this specific issue called How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony And Why You Should Care. From my understanding, fretless stringed players tend to edge towards Just intervals on chords, specifically the 3rds. However 1st Violin when taking the melody might go for something deliberately sharper like a Pythagorean type tuning to stand out more. Yeah, while equal temperament has distorted the way we hear thirds in most music, it homogenized the relationship between keys, which enabled far more harmonic exploration, and I likey. On the other hand, I wonder that there are a few blues players who take advantage of this knowledge and tune/bend for more pythagorean intervals. Really, that's one of the advantages of the modern guitar - it has frets, but things like vibrato, bending, and just 'down pressure' let them play with intonation quite a bit.
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