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Post by drbill on Aug 19, 2018 16:51:42 GMT -6
Especially if you do acoustic based musics, the Bricasti glues stuff together like no other. I would put it like this - other reverbs sit on top of the sound being verbed. The Bricasti molds INTO the sound you're verbing and becomes one with it. Essentially what Wiz said....
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 19, 2018 16:53:05 GMT -6
Interesting thread Shadow. I haven't used a Bricasti, but I did audition one at AES in NY before anyone was in the room yet, and I had plenty of time with it.
I've also worked with Lexicon's for decades, so that sound is in my bones. The Relab XL480 Plug-in is almost indistinguishable from the hardware. I don't say that lightly, most plugs don't really get it for me. This year, I bought the no frills version of the Liquid Sonics Seventh Heaven Bricasti plug-in for $60 or $69, I forget. I've had the Bricasti IR's for years but never liked them. The XL480 plug has been my go to reverb for five years now. On all my tracks, I use the 7th Heaven first now, with the XL480 second to widen things a bit if I want, but even that is being supplanted by the Sound Toys Little Plate. I have the UAD EMT-140 plug, but the Little Plate just feels more like it. So, plug-in wise, the Bricasti sounds cleaner and more lush than the XL480 plug, which sounds amazingly like the hardware. Based on my using them for hundreds of hours on dozens of songs, I'd recommend the Bricasti first if you can swing it. I do get that two other very sweet reverbs can be had for the same money.
Yet I still fantasize about hardware, and imagine what gear I'd have if I had a nice studio my own. I have little interest in competing with a real deal recording studio, I would just like well chosen gear in my own place for my own work mostly. If I was able to afford only a few quality pieces, I'd get a Bricasti and a PCM 70. If that was over my budget, I'd get a PCM 70 (substitute PCM92 if you like) and an Eventide H9 Max pedal and use it as hardware. So, although I don't think anyone would complain if you get the Eventide and Lexicon, I do think the Bricasti will do a lot of heavy lifting for you the it comes to getting that big time studio sound.
* Wiz uses a Bricasti on everything? Maybe check his tracks out.
** when I tried the Bricasti at AES, my mind was actually blown.
**** wait for a SoundToys sale, get the Little Plate, it might rock your world or raise an eyebrow at least. Good luck.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2018 17:58:33 GMT -6
I've sent the dry mix of the Neve Test I did in the other thread to Wiz, just for reference here's the track dry and another with NI's RX reverb on it.. Yeah there might be a couple of pop's crackles due to that damn MOTU..
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 19, 2018 18:09:21 GMT -6
I did this quickly to get something out for Christmas last year. This is the Liquid Sonics 7th Heaven reverb, modeled on the Bricasti. I could've used a little de-essing, (it's me, not the mic), but I like how the reverb pushes out to the side while maintaining focus in the front. If the Bricasti plug sounds like this, I can only imagine how cool the hardware must be.
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/a-champagne-christmas-1
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 19, 2018 18:59:06 GMT -6
If you MUST have hardware, and MUST have Lexicon (having Lexicon is something I completely understand...but I get it via plugins), then I would try the v.2.x Bricasti first to see if it does what you want. It imitates Lexicon in v.2.x but in my mind doesn't quite achieve what a 480L does. If that works for you, end of search. You've got the best of both worlds. If it doesn't make it for you, buy a 480L and pray it doesn't blow up anytime soon. If that's not an option, ditch the PCM96, and buy a PCM92. Less money, just as good (identical aside from the i/o) and be happy. If it was me, before buying a 480L, I'd get another cheap computer, crappy interface and run the LX480 on the computer thru the console. I've considered something like that several times. My question is whether latency would be a serious problem - I mix via hardware with hardware processing. When I last tried something like that several years ago latency made it impossible, which was a huge disappointment. I'd even used a separate computer to JUST run the processing software, treating it like a hardware processor. Didn't work.
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Post by drbill on Aug 19, 2018 19:03:59 GMT -6
If you MUST have hardware, and MUST have Lexicon (having Lexicon is something I completely understand...but I get it via plugins), then I would try the v.2.x Bricasti first to see if it does what you want. It imitates Lexicon in v.2.x but in my mind doesn't quite achieve what a 480L does. If that works for you, end of search. You've got the best of both worlds. If it doesn't make it for you, buy a 480L and pray it doesn't blow up anytime soon. If that's not an option, ditch the PCM96, and buy a PCM92. Less money, just as good (identical aside from the i/o) and be happy. If it was me, before buying a 480L, I'd get another cheap computer, crappy interface and run the LX480 on the computer thru the console. I've considered something like that several times. My question is whether latency would be a serious problem - I mix via hardware with hardware processing. When I last tried something like that several years ago latency made it impossible, which was a huge disappointment. I'd even used a separate computer to JUST run the processing software, treating it like a hardware processor. Didn't work. John - if you're running a 100% wet verb send, it's not a problem. Same with 100% wet Delays, not really a problem. i.e.: like how you normally mix on a console. Stuff that you're "parallel processing" Dry/Dry like compressors, EQ, etc., you might have issues depending on use / computer / software / etc..
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Post by Blackdawg on Aug 19, 2018 19:23:56 GMT -6
Especially if you do acoustic based musics, the Bricasti glues stuff together like no other. I would put it like this - other reverbs sit on top of the sound being verbed. The Bricasti molds INTO the sound you're verbing and becomes one with it. Essentially what Wiz said.... aaaaaaaand this is why I use 3 of these for surround recordings of classical music and is why Sean Murphy uses them for film scores. M7. All day. Love them. My boss liked the Lexicon stuff, but mostly because it was integrated into the Studer Vista5 we used. So was super convenient with the symphony. The new updated core though got rid of that and now is hardware with bus sends, didn't like that he lost bus sends. But still uses them. The m7 stays at the mix studio.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 19, 2018 20:01:39 GMT -6
The only reason I don’t own a Bricasti is I grew up with the sound off my Lexicon 300 TC 2K, Mone, D2 Yamaha SPX90, Rev5, Pro3r D1500
I would have to sell them all and then I would start buying them back because I would miss them. But the Bricasti is the top box of all boxes.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 19, 2018 20:48:33 GMT -6
I was always curious about the Lexicon 300. I've often wondered which Lexicon is best for lead vocals, excepting the really expensive ones. If you'd like a Bricasti, I'd suggest you listen to the Relab XL480, it's so damn close, it would probably handle your Lexicon jones just fine, and then you could use the Bricasti all day long.
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Post by wiz on Aug 19, 2018 21:21:57 GMT -6
@shadowamd here you go...8) Now, your file was quite hot. I normally run my system here based around 0VU = +4dBm But no biggie, one thing to note.. I had moved the fader on your dry track -0.1dB so when comparing, just put your dry track at -0.1dB. Load all these into your DAW, and put your dry track in, and then compare. These are all PRESETS. I didn't adjust anything... only the reverb return level coming back from the bricasti (converter is MOTU 16A). But the reverb return level is left the same for each track. I did a smattering of plates halls rooms etc, and gave you V1 and V2 presets.... I would recommend if you are going to buy a Bricasti, you save money by buying the version without the controls on the face plate, and getting the Exponential Audio Bricasti Plug in.. which is better than mucking about with the controls on the unit anyways, and the settings stay in your project. That would save you about 600USD. Its what I did, and I had a borrowed Bricasti with controls here for 6 months prior to buying my own one. cheers Wiz Shadowamd Bricasti Files
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Post by wiz on Aug 19, 2018 21:24:46 GMT -6
I was always curious about the Lexicon 300. I've often wondered which Lexicon is best for lead vocals, excepting the really expensive ones. If you'd like a Bricasti, I'd suggest you listen to the Relab XL480, it's so damn close, it would probably handle your Lexicon jones just fine, and then you could use the Bricasti all day long. I use the RELAB XL480 in all my songs along with the Bricasti. Its great cheers Wiz
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2018 6:17:41 GMT -6
wiz Really appreciate you doing that.. I think you kindly made my decision for me, it is more subtle than one expects after use of Lexicon's.. As others have said it does seem to unify / fatten gently which is pretty cool.. Although, if you've ever mic'd and recorded classical / room based all acoustic it doesn't sound anything like that.. Not only do you have different reflection points from the room, you also have different phase relationships between microphones and distances from other instruments. It still sounds to me like I've dry mic'ed a track and used some convolution based reverb.. There's some sort of additional signal decay rate (which I find with quite a few plugins as well) the overtone harmonics are making things a little muddy (which some verbs do even the Lex's) but it's not enhancing things enough to be worth it. There's also a consistancy to the different presets, they sound different yet similar..? Sure you'd HPF / LPF the verb and clean things up in a mix, but the Lexicons will actually enhance the signal even if it does slightly "sit on top" and sound a little more fake.. For me if you can't go completely natural then you might as well enhance the signal. I'm sure many of you will disagree etc. but it's just one person's opinion, great thread and now I know what I need to do..
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 20, 2018 7:37:19 GMT -6
If you really want a natural sound, and use Classical style recordings as a guide, I'd suggest you look at Exponential Audio's reverbs. I believe the owner was a former Lexicon designer, and his reverbs sound the cleanest and most like a hall I've ever heard.
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Post by Ward on Aug 20, 2018 8:17:48 GMT -6
The thing the bricasti does for me...is depth and ties everything together....rather than an obvious, oh that has reverb on it. Send me some tracks, stems , and I will run off an example for you Cheers Wiz I'll take you up on that kind offer!! I'll send you a vocal and acoustic guitar track stem later today and an MP3 of the current mix in the next few minutes.
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Post by jimwilliams on Aug 20, 2018 9:44:51 GMT -6
When both were released I got a chance to play quite a bit with both at NAMM. I was an exhibitor so I got in early before the crowds so I could play and listen alone. The PCM96 was impressive, like a 480 in a small package. It reminded me of those classic Lexicon chorus/reverb sounds. The M7 was in another class altogether. Brian showed me all the possibilities and he really messed with my head switching from the real Boston Hall ambiences to the Bricasti's version. I could not tell which was which. The M7 sells the room better than anything ever invented. Since that was what I was looking for I sold off my hot-rodded Lexicon 224XL that week and bought the M7. I never looked back as I have other Lexicon stuff for those sounds. There are two types of studios in this world: Those that have/use the M7 and those that do not. Which are you? 78.media.tumblr.com/cbdc91841381d6aec48d9f8943bc5a4a/tumblr_n40kuzM7L31smcbm7o1_250.gifNow I know whom not to ask to come to the local comedy club. BTW, I use the M7 analog only. Emulations will not approach the processing power of those 6 AD Blackfin processors. You would need 10 Pentium core 7's to get close. I'd prefer most skip it myself. I like the edge it gives me.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 20, 2018 10:16:20 GMT -6
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 20, 2018 10:46:35 GMT -6
That's why I posted the track with the Liquid Sonics 7th Heaven reverb on it. It's the nicest sounding digital reverb I've heard yet, and if the Bricasti emulation they did sounds this good, I can only imagine how sweet the real thing would be. As Steven Tyler sang, "dream on, dream on"..
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2018 10:55:06 GMT -6
I must of spent (or I'm going to) $40K over the last three months on audio equipment and you know what really gives the biggest "edge"..? Practice, singing / playing guitar and re-learning what works when I put it all together.. I kinda realised today, I am looking for more "character" pieces.. Yeah I know the Lexicon is used on everything but specific kinda oddball stuff like a cooper timecube and Eventide 2016? Damn, that gives me a sound that inspires.. I can get away with a Focusrite Clarett and some plugs, don't doubt that for a second.. Although in this day an age where music is a completely disposable commodity worth nothing you might as well just go nuts because I'm not banking on a rock star career..
If I was opening a studio, I probably would pick the Bricasti.. For my own daft music, meh.!
Whatever tickles your schmancy..!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 20, 2018 11:04:41 GMT -6
I must of spent (or I'm going to) $40K over the last three months on audio equipment and you know what really gives the biggest "edge"..? Practice, singing / playing guitar and re-learning what works when I put it all together.. I kinda realised today, I am looking for more "character" pieces.. Yeah I know the Lexicon is used on everything but specific kinda oddball stuff like a cooper timecube and Eventide 2016? Damn, that gives me a sound that inspires.. I can get away with a Focusrite Clarett and some plugs, don't doubt that for a second.. Although in this day an age where music is a completely disposable commodity worth nothing you might as well just go nuts because I'm not banking on a rock star career..
If I was opening a studio, I probably would pick the Bricasti.. For my own daft music, meh.!
Whatever tickles your schmancy..!
Yes, buy gear that works for you not others! Of course with most manufacturers chasing the same old couple of classics it’s getting harder and harder to find .
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Post by wiz on Aug 20, 2018 16:02:05 GMT -6
The thing the bricasti does for me...is depth and ties everything together....rather than an obvious, oh that has reverb on it. Send me some tracks, stems , and I will run off an example for you Cheers Wiz I'll take you up on that kind offer!! I'll send you a vocal and acoustic guitar track stem later today and an MP3 of the current mix in the next few minutes. No probs ignore the the email reply I sent, I did it before reading this 8) cheers Wiz
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Post by wiz on Aug 20, 2018 16:10:29 GMT -6
I am glad to have helped out with the choice here.
Everyones preferences are different.
That can change over time and what you are doing as well, bands, real drums, all acoustic.
I find the Bricasti really upped my game, because it gave my a really good improvement overall in the room department.
But remember I record in a dry smallish room, close micing everything ostensibly, using real instruments including drums.
Back when I was using sampled drums, and amp simulators, the Bricasti would not have brought any more to the table.
i use it to replace my room.... not for reverb. I use Relab for the reverb side of things.
Again, really glad to have helped out
cheers
Wiz
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Post by keymod on Aug 20, 2018 18:05:12 GMT -6
How effective is the UAD Ocean Way plugin at "room replacement" ?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 20, 2018 18:13:15 GMT -6
Cowboycoalminer swears by it, and uses it on all his mixes. I use it only occasionally, but when I do, it really does do what they claim. If you use it as a reverb only, it sounds good, I'm not interested in "re-miking". The way I use it is as if it is the room, and not a reverb, then I add the reverb I like, Liquid Sonics 7th Heaven, Relab XL480, Soundtoys Little Plate, UAD's EMT-140 or a half dozen others.Even Apple's new reverb sounds good, and it's free.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 20, 2018 21:14:40 GMT -6
How effective is the UAD Ocean Way plugin at "room replacement" ? I think room replacement is the wrong way to look at, it’s more room enhancement and this is why one box isn’t a fit for everyone in this role the algorithm has to work with the room.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 20, 2018 22:00:52 GMT -6
True. I record in my apartment's living room. The Ocean Way kind of overlays on the room sound and improves it, making it sound like a better room. If you close mic, it works even better.
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