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Post by hadaja on Jul 7, 2018 20:51:39 GMT -6
Just looking for some advice. Sometimes I can be very black n white. When it comes to social Ques and proper conduct I can be a bit behind the 8 ball so to speak. Anyway I have a few associates that have great working relationships with some smaller suppliers and manufactures and they get really good deals on products. Now I dont begrudge them as hey I take advantage of things like that for example my brother is a builder and I get free help from him from time to time.
BUT....
Should these people being endorsing these products on music forums without disclosing that sort of background info?
Due to my personality style it is bugging me that some of these people sing the praises on various online music forums about these certain products that have been given for free or at drastically reduced prices. Where's the transparency?
Now as an example, if I was given a KM84 for free or 1/2 price I would be singing the prasies of Neumann and how wonderful this mic is and everyone should get one.
But I dont think this is right. Now should I just get over it and thats the way the world works just deal with it.
or is there some better framework I can compartmentalize this in my brain so it does not bug me so much? Whats your thoughts?
And just to clarify, no I dont have any associations myself with any manufacturer or product.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2018 3:21:48 GMT -6
If every person who had ever been involved in working on a project, beta testing it, or been given a copy for free, had to declare that in every post, it would be a very boring read. I'm open about the software developers I beta test for (ValhallaDSP, Tokyo Dawn Labs, Klanghelm etc.), but I don't feel I have to disclose that every time I mention one of their products. I dunno, maybe I should?
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Post by Quint on Jul 8, 2018 7:54:25 GMT -6
As someone who finds excessive gear pimping distasteful and non-transparency associated with such things to be an even worse thing yet, I'm all for full disclosure in EVERY instance, "boring" a read as it might make. Non-transparent gear pimping is rampant on GS and it would be good to avoid that sort of thing from happening here worse than it already does.
A reasonable alternative would be a link, in a user's signature line, to a list of such products. Something like "Here's what I sell/promote: link"
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2018 8:28:45 GMT -6
Or a separate thread here, where everyone lists their affiliations voluntarily, all based on trust of course. I think that would be a great thing and would keep the clutter down.
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Post by Quint on Jul 8, 2018 8:33:49 GMT -6
Or a separate thread here, where everyone lists their affiliations voluntarily, all based on trust of course. I think that would be a great thing and would keep the clutter down. I think a thread would be too hard to navigate to find the info you want. An individual link back to each user's profile where their affiliations are listed would be much easier to navigate and maintain.
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Post by trakworxmastering on Jul 8, 2018 8:46:04 GMT -6
Now should I just get over it and thats the way the world works just deal with it.
Unfortunately yes, that's the way the world works. It's not just pro audio forums, it's the entire internet on every type of product. Amazon reviews, Yelp reviews, shills everywhere. There's no stopping it. It's too easy to get away with it.
For your own peace of mind just accept it. That's what I did long ago and I'm happier for it.
It's not so hard to mentally filter online pro audio opinions once you are familiar with the members of a given forum. I have members I trust and I give them more credence. Also, I look for consensus on a product because the honest members outnumber the shills.
This is a gray area too. Some members might have a cozy relationship with a company but that's because they genuinely loved the product from the start, and the relationship grew from there. It can be hard to know where to draw the line.
In the end I have always simply purchased products, tried them myself, and returned/sold them if I wasn't impressed. Online opinions are only a starting point anyway.
Fuggettaboudit.
Cheers,
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 8, 2018 8:54:34 GMT -6
Personally, I look to the type of comment, if someone is adding knowledge/useful information about understanding a specific product and not slagging a competitor, that’s important to me.
I also appreciate it when people with better technical knowledge critique something that may be stated?
A good example for me would be any thread about mike’s, if Tim Campbell posts, I always read that, as I know I will learn something.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 8, 2018 10:33:16 GMT -6
I’m all for transparency, and personally have always tried to bring up any possible commercial or personal relationships that may seam to be a bias towards a manufacturer, but most of those manufacturers would probably tell you I have probably made as many comments they perceive as negative towards their products as positive. As a former gearpimp for one of of the largest dealers I have had some kind of relationship with most manufacturers. Any policy would have to be on the honor system and would completely lack teeth, also do keep in mind anyone involved in product development would probably have to abide by a non-disclosure agreement so that would also come into play. While I do not like schills and the audio equivalent of trenders, I have no personal problem with recommending gear I like from people I like ! Of course they all know I will also be the first to not recommend their gear if I feel it isn’t the right fit. For the record former endorsements / free gear I have received Avid PT 24 Crown Studio Reference Amp Sennhiser Various Mics
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Post by trakworxmastering on Jul 8, 2018 10:37:26 GMT -6
I never got any free gear. I had to shill really hard for it! Haha JK
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Post by massivemastering on Jul 9, 2018 0:21:46 GMT -6
Back when I had long hair and good looks, I had a few equipment endorsements going on - Guitars (Jackson), amps (Laney, back when they were awesome), etc. That said, I also had a soul. I was already playing the guitars, I was already using the amps. Did I take advantage of "upgrades" and awesome deals on new stuff? Hell yeah. But if I didn't want it "at any price" I didn't want it at all. There was "honor" there. I'd say I was excited about something, I'd be in an ad here and there - But I had to actually be excited about it.
Same with now. Although it doesn't happen as much as it did 5-10 years ago, I had several pieces of gear come through where it was implied that I'd get an insanely sweet deal for the right paragraph. But if I wasn't going to be proud to have it in the rack, I didn't want it in the rack and that's the end of that.
My Tyler Acoustics speakers for example -- Had a decent "audiophile" following, but not seen in mastering rooms at the time. I paid whatever they were asking at the time (was it $7k?) and they were better than just about any speaker I've heard at twice the price. You bet your ass I wrote a review. You bet your ass I took calls and e-mails from literally dozens of mastering engineers asking me about them. And you bet your ass now they're in dozens of mastering studios.
Would he give me an exceptional deal on new ones...? Perhaps. If I felt any reason to upgrade, I'd certainly approach that subject. But the same standard sits. He could offer me "free" [newer models] but if I didn't actually want them and think they were better than what I'm using, I'm not going to say they're wonderful just because I didn't pay the normal price.
[IRONY] The guy who built my EQ -- More or less a souped-up Sontec/GML clone (I've owned both and it's a good description) -- he gave me a relatively amazing deal on the beast, hoping for my "thumbs up" so he could make the same unit for others. The EQ is absolutely amazing, without question. It's every "groovy" thing I loved about my old Sontec (but nothing I disliked about it). It's every "surgical" thing I liked about my GML 8200's & 9500 with all the advantages of the 9500 *plus* mid-side that matches up in ways that I didn't think possible in analog. YET - when all was said and done, he told me NOT to tell anyone who built it because he nearly lost his mind on it. Far more complicated of a build than he originally thought it was going to be. He said something along the lines of "Next time, just buy another 9500 and I'll add the mid-side to it." [/IRONY]
All that out of the way -- If Rupert Neve Designs calls up and says "We couldn't help but notice your Portico II Master Buss Processor is one of the models without the hard bypass switch and we'd like to replace it with one of the newer models" -- I'd be packing it up in the morning.
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Post by adamjbrass on Jul 9, 2018 4:39:17 GMT -6
I usually block the shills who aggressively comment on my social media pages. I usually roll my eyes at them on forums.
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Post by Ward on Jul 9, 2018 8:43:13 GMT -6
As markfouxman told me on his fabulous Samar VL27a microphone, I need to under@stam that everything sound better through a pair of Neumann KH series near fields and that I should be recording this conversation into a @capi preamp through an Audioscapes 76 limiter. For only 3 payments of $199.00 I can help get to the root of this problem and provide advice to Johnkenn on what to do about it!
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 9, 2018 8:57:59 GMT -6
I haven’t received anything for free. In the past, I’ve traded a banner ad here and there, but these days, I need and prefer actual money to be able to run the board. There have been some obvious shills on the board but the two I can think of have been banned.
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Post by Ned Ward on Jul 9, 2018 9:44:50 GMT -6
On other boards (prosoundweb forums, for example), if you have a relationship with a manufacturer (work for them, endorsed, free/discount gear) you must disclose that when commenting on that gear or competitors. I think it keeps people honest and makes forums more transparent. Obviously, that type of transparency isn't going to work for places like GS, but here and other more professional places I think it does.
Full disclosure: I worked a summer for Opcode, loved their software, and still harbor a grudge against Gibson for shelving Studio Vision Pro, Galaxy Plus Editors, and OMS.
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Post by ericn on Jul 9, 2018 9:48:36 GMT -6
On other boards (prosoundweb forums, for example), if you have a relationship with a manufacturer (work for them, endorsed, free/discount gear) you must disclose that when commenting on that gear or competitors. I think it keeps people honest and makes forums more transparent. Obviously, that type of transparency isn't going to work for places like GS, but here and other more professional places I think it does. Full disclosure: I worked a summer for Opcode, loved their software, and still harbor a grudge against Gibson for shelving Studio Vision Pro, Galaxy Plus Editors, and OMS. I think we all share that grudge Ned, Oh wait they gave me software 23 years ago as did everybody else so I have an equalizing conflict of interest on this one! But still what they did to Opcode sucked big time!
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Post by Ned Ward on Jul 9, 2018 9:52:36 GMT -6
Actually, since SVP isn't useable anymore, I can sing its praises without worry. Now if I were getting Pro Tools for free, different story.
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Post by ericn on Jul 9, 2018 10:01:58 GMT -6
Actually, since SVP isn't useable anymore, I can sing its praises without worry. Now if I were getting Pro Tools for free, different story. You don’t know how many guys I know who switched DAW’s and what DAW they pushed when AVID cut down on NFR’s ! I think Logic and Studio One saw a huge increase in sales thanks to that one!
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Post by guitfiddler on Jul 9, 2018 22:55:44 GMT -6
Free gear! What about free beer?! Now that's a topic in itself! Back on subject, sorry.
You don't like my etiquette MFer? Lol, sorry...Having a crazy night, and I have been working non-stop for about 20 hours now and I have a few more hours to go...I had to take a break and get my RGO fill.
Fuck Apogee and Honor the UAD! Peace out brother from another motha!
cough...yeah, time to go to bed...I've been awake for too long and I'm starting to sound like a shill!
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Post by Ward on Jul 10, 2018 5:15:47 GMT -6
Fuck Apogee and Honor the UAD! Peace out brother from another motha! To use the British vernacular, as I am wont to do, Shag the lot of ye! Shag Apogee and UAD! Avid all the way! And Burl! And SVART svart and oh yeah . . . Down with pants, up with skirts!
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Post by ericn on Jul 10, 2018 6:17:34 GMT -6
Fuck Apogee and Honor the UAD! Peace out brother from another motha! To use the British vernacular, as I am wont to do, Shag the lot of ye! Shag Apogee and UAD! Avid all the way! And Burl! And SVART svart and oh yeah . . . Down with pants, up with skirts! Nah it’s all about showing some RADAR Love.😁
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Post by rowmat on Jul 10, 2018 14:55:58 GMT -6
On other boards (prosoundweb forums, for example), if you have a relationship with a manufacturer (work for them, endorsed, free/discount gear) you must disclose that when commenting on that gear or competitors. I think it keeps people honest and makes forums more transparent. Obviously, that type of transparency isn't going to work for places like GS, but here and other more professional places I think it does. Full disclosure: I worked a summer for Opcode, loved their software, and still harbor a grudge against Gibson for shelving Studio Vision Pro, Galaxy Plus Editors, and OMS. Opcode brings back memories for me. I bought an Opcode Sonicport which was an early 2 Channel USB AD/DA. Three months after I bought it the damn thing ceased working. It was no longer recognised by any computer. So I thought no problem it has a 12 month warranty and I took it back to the store. The store told me that Gibson had taken over Opcode and were refusing to honour any existing Opcode warranties. I said then just take it back and refund my money. The store refused and I was $700 down the drain.
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Post by M57 on Jul 10, 2018 15:31:55 GMT -6
I for one like to know because I make purchasing decisions based at least in part on things I learn here. A lot of you know each other professionally, see each other at shows, etc, so I would expect a certain level of collegial honesty. After all, most of us are here to share and learn, right? Yeah, it's easy to omit information, but I get the sense that many if not most of the regulars in these forums are pretty up front about any endorsements/free gear, etc. they receive. Interestingly, the subject was broached in the early days of the site in the 'sticky' forum rules thread. While it may be asking too much to make it a rule, I think it should be "highly recommended" that folks add disclaimers and/or disclosures when they discuss products they have some monetized connections to, be it in the form of free gear, or whatever. Maybe add it to the first post??
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 10, 2018 16:28:28 GMT -6
I've done quite a few gear tests and posted them online. I don't typically get offered free products to do them. I began my online comparisons as part of paying back for some of the help I'd gotten from so many of the exceptionably knowledgeable and helpful folks here. Even if I was offered something for free, I wouldn't post a positive review if it wasn't a really good piece, I'd just return it and say thanks for letting me try it.
After I finished with something, if I really like it, I might be offered something like a 25% discount occasionally. I would never buy anything I didn't really like anyway just because it was discounted a little. I've been around a while and have friendships with some store managers built on decades of buying gear, so generally, I can get 15% off or more of anything I want, so a slightly higher discount from a manufacturer is hardly an incentive for me to promote any kind of gear. I'm an artist first, so my reputation is more important to me than a compressor or mic.
That said, I share a love and passion for great sound with some of my manufacturer/designer friends, so I'm always very happy if something they design or distribute is a success, and I'll support them strongly, but if I didn't like something, even it it was given to me, I couldn't recommend it.
Also, some of those gear videos took 60-70 hours to put together, so a little courtesy discount was certainly earned I think.
Currently, I have no outboard, just the Apollo 8 and thankfully, my little Stam SA73, which you'd have to pry from my cold dead hands.
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Post by hadaja on Jul 10, 2018 21:18:43 GMT -6
I've done quite a few gear tests and posted them online. I don't typically get offered free products to do them. I began my online comparisons as part of paying back for some of the help I'd gotten from so many of the exceptionably knowledgeable and helpful folks here. Even if I was offered something for free, I wouldn't post a positive review if it wasn't a really good piece, I'd just return it and say thanks for letting me try it. After I finished with something, if I really like it, I might be offered something like a 25% discount occasionally. I would never buy anything I didn't really like anyway just because it was discounted a little. I've been around a while and have friendships with some store managers built on decades of buying gear, so generally, I can get 15% off or more of anything I want, so a slightly higher discount from a manufacturer is hardly an incentive for me to promote any kind of gear. I'm an artist first, so my reputation is more important to me than a compressor or mic. That said, I share a love and passion for great sound with some of my manufacturer/designer friends, so I'm always very happy if something they design or distribute is a success, and I'll support them strongly, but if I didn't like something, even it it was given to me, I couldn't recommend it. Also, some of those gear videos took 60-70 hours to put together, so a little courtesy discount was certainly earned I think. Currently, I have no outboard, just the Apollo 8 and thankfully, my little Stam SA73, which you'd have to pry from my cold dead hands. Actually that makes a bit of sense. If you have done a few promos and spent a lot of time making videos for example on various products and the manuafactuers reward you with a product here and there, that seems quite reasonable. Thanks for helping me clear that up.
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Post by ericn on Jul 10, 2018 21:33:28 GMT -6
I think the thing worse than schills pushing gear is schills slagging gear because of a undisclosed relationship with a different manufacturer!
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