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Post by drbill on Apr 19, 2018 11:09:48 GMT -6
Hello guys!
I'm forced to master a ton of my music simply because it's not feasible for me to have it mastered by a professional - either time wise, or financially. I mostly do production music for TV and the timetables and delivery requirements are ridiculous (not 1 track per song, but often 15+ per song). I don't' want to turn in stuff that's not as good as it can be, so I try to make a go of mastering it myself.
But here's the rub - the deeper I get, the more I realize what I don't really know, and I suspect that there's a bunch of us that are in the same boat as myself.
Over the years I've taken a "traditional" approach, but I'm beginning to understand CD levels vs. Streaming levels, and I'm confused as to which to shoot for now that we're in 2018. Do I master for CD levels at or around -9LUFS even though there's a good chance that very few physical CD's will be sold, or do I shoot for streaming levels now that everything is headed that direction at or around -13LUFS-ish - which theoretically will be more dynamic and better suited for the streaming services?
Some of my music will end up on Spotify, etc., and others will end up on CD. Still others will be thrown in a bin and used by TV film editors, and never see the light of day except as used under dialog.
I'm committed to mastering "semi-loud", but not crushed. BUT.....unsure of whether to aim for CD levels (-9-10-ish) or Streaming levels (-13-14-ish) with my LUFS levels.
I'm aware that even these simple questions probably point to my ignorance with the issues at hand. Any thoughts or pointers? Or perhaps reading materials?
Thanks!!!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 12:36:40 GMT -6
Shoot for streaming levels in this day and age, and if you are mostly working with stuff that will end up on TV.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 19, 2018 13:34:22 GMT -6
What's the going rate per song for masters these days? I know it varies greatly...but I'd love to get into a groove with somebody that doesn't charge an arm and a leg. I still know they will do a better job than I will.
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Post by Blackdawg on Apr 19, 2018 13:39:02 GMT -6
Agreed, go for the streaming stuff.
Also keep in mind that its being broadcasted and depending on the country that will have very strict regulations on loudness. Most of that stuff will get remastered/mix either by a broadcast engineer/magic black box of death compander/or re recording mixer. So all the more reason to go for streaming if the music is being release on a sound track or something it'll be at the right level already for the most popular format it'll be purchased on. Which again, would likely be touch again by a mastering engineer for at least album assemblies
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Post by Blackdawg on Apr 19, 2018 13:42:20 GMT -6
What's the going rate per song for masters these days? I know it varies greatly...but I'd love to get into a groove with somebody that doesn't charge an arm and a leg. I still know they will do a better job than I will. Seen anywhere from 60-250 a song. Most seem around 125-150ish. Also varies on package. Just a wav file vs guaranteed file back up, multiple resolutions presented and a DDP or assembly. |
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Post by notneeson on Apr 19, 2018 14:39:07 GMT -6
What's the going rate per song for masters these days? I know it varies greatly...but I'd love to get into a groove with somebody that doesn't charge an arm and a leg. I still know they will do a better job than I will. Seen anywhere from 60-250 a song. Most seem around 125-150ish. Also varies on package. Just a wav file vs guaranteed file back up, multiple resolutions presented and a DDP or assembly. I like what I get back from Justin Weiss: www.trakworx.comHe’s a purple place regular, but I started using him on my friend Jaime’s recommendation. Best I’ve found at anywhere near that rate having used some of the $100-160/song guys. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Apr 19, 2018 15:21:03 GMT -6
Seen anywhere from 60-250 a song. Most seem around 125-150ish. Also varies on package. Just a wav file vs guaranteed file back up, multiple resolutions presented and a DDP or assembly. I like what I get back from Justin Weiss: www.trakworx.comHe’s a purple place regular, but I started using him on my friend Jaime’s recommendation. Best I’ve found at anywhere near that rate having used some of the $100-160/song guys. Damn for that rate Id give it a shot for sure. Looks to have lots of cool gear too. |
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Post by nomatic on Apr 19, 2018 16:00:44 GMT -6
What's the going rate per song for masters these days? I know it varies greatly...but I'd love to get into a groove with somebody that doesn't charge an arm and a leg. I still know they will do a better job than I will. I have settled on $75 per track unless a label is involved..... Send a track and I will do one for free (which I never do anymore!) |
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Post by nomatic on Apr 19, 2018 16:01:15 GMT -6
Shoot for streaming levels in this day and age, and if you are mostly working with stuff that will end up on TV. What He says! |
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Post by drbill on Apr 19, 2018 16:47:58 GMT -6
Shoot for streaming levels in this day and age, and if you are mostly working with stuff that will end up on TV. What He says! OK, GREAT! Thanks. What about instrumental types of music that will be released "officially" on CD, but that will primarily end up on Spotify, Pandora, etc.? Same thing? Streaming levels? Many thanks! bp |
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Post by jeromemason on Apr 19, 2018 20:20:36 GMT -6
Aria is what I use on all the stuff I do unless I'm just asked to deliver a mix.
I'll usually do any eq'n, harmonics, widening etc. and then shoot it over to them. They lowest setting usually seems just right for streaming, the next level for CD's. Do the subscription at like $100 a month and it should cover quite a bit of material. Also if you need 2 different versions of loudness they don't charge for a 2nd or even 3rd pass on level.
I've got some EP's out there that I've heard play right behind the pro stuff and I couldn't tell a difference, level wise. Now, if you want that magic the mastering guys do, where they dig in and get ultra technical with eq/widening/saturation/compression...... That's when you've got to have a guy behind the seat. For that, if I have a choice, Hank Williams is $100 a song here in town and he puts one hell of a trick on whatever you send him.
Jerome
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 20:57:23 GMT -6
If you're mastering to professional standards you should be aware of normalization and cross broadcast standards like in Europe there's R128 / ITU and A/85 in the US.. Generally if you don't adhere to these standards your stuff will get binned.! (well that's what I've found)..
Most major streaming services normalize playback (which is hilarious when you're trying to be the master of the loudness wars) to make sure tracks are around the same nominal volume when switching to the next.
Most radio broadcast solutions are the same (well in the EU they are), they have some hefty gear that transmutes the recorded mediums anyway.. Can't say I did much of it but for the little I did I was made very aware of it..
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2018 1:40:48 GMT -6
I charge GBP £50 per track, all inclusive. ($70 or €57, just checked exchange rates). Yeah even if it's instrumental and may end up on CD, you're going to be better off erring on the side of caution with the levels, if only for sound quality reasons. But then I have philosophy and rep for NOT liking slamming things, so am of course biased.  |
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Post by keymod on Apr 20, 2018 3:04:01 GMT -6
I am reminded to ask - at what level do Mastering Engineers prefer a mix be sent to them?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2018 10:31:48 GMT -6
Any level is OK for me, as long as there is no clipping or overs (and even then I can fix it if it's not outrageous). 24 or 32 bit float renders in the native sample rate preferred. No brickwall limiting on the mix preferred, hands are tied somewhat if it's already been applied.
Every mastering engineer's chain is gonna be calibrated slightly differently so there is no one size fits all.
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Post by dandeurloo on Apr 23, 2018 11:44:43 GMT -6
Off topic a little but worth saying I think:
I have had my tunes mastered by a number of top level guys. The artist I work with often will do a shoot out with a few guys and then decide from there. It is interesting to me how different the songs come back from each guy.
It is also interesting that often times the mid level Mastering Enegineer will beat out the Top Name guy. This has happen a number of times.
My 2 cents
So, if you are looking for a mastering guy, get a guy who is interested in working hard for you. Not just a guy who will run it through his process and call it a master and then post about it on FB.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 23, 2018 11:56:02 GMT -6
You can say that about a couple of mix guys in town too |
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Post by dandeurloo on Apr 23, 2018 11:57:28 GMT -6
You can say that about a couple of mix guys in town too A lot of them. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 23, 2018 12:21:23 GMT -6
Production music shouldn't really be "mastered" because it's going to be mixed with additional material. Light compression and any obvious eq. requirements should cover it and will sound lots better in the final mix and broadcast processing.
The "loudness wars" are all about competing in the music meetings at CheapChannel. Unless you're going there, there's no reason to slam the levels. Likewise, if you are an established artist sure to get airplay, again there's no reason to push the level.
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Post by drbill on Apr 23, 2018 13:48:29 GMT -6
Production music shouldn't really be "mastered" because it's going to be mixed with additional material. Light compression and any obvious eq. requirements should cover it and will sound lots better in the final mix and broadcast processing.. I wish this were true Bob. At this stage, most of the music supervisors are under 35-40 and have never heard music that wasn't mastered during the mastering wars period of time. All things being equal, the loud track will get chosen. I've seen it happen over and over while sitting on the dub stage. Even when I'm mixing orchestra stuff for Disney, if I turn in finished mixes they won't get OK'd unless they are slammed with mastering. Cuts me deep to do it, but I want to be finished and get paid. Mastering gets me there. Thanks for all the answers guys. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 23, 2018 14:17:35 GMT -6
That's sad!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 15:52:39 GMT -6
It's outrageously sad  |
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Post by drbill on Apr 23, 2018 17:31:20 GMT -6
Indeed it is sad. I mixed the new Pirates venue and the music was SLAMMING. Really awesome. But I couldn't get it OK'd until a buddy who is a top Hollywood scoring engineer told me that he can't get any score's OK'd anymore unless he "masters" them. Hard to believe, sad, but true. As soon as I mastered the stems, I got glowing reviews on the mixes. LOL. But I believe there's a happy medium somewhere, and that's what this thread is all about. After research, and getting a decent LUFS meter plug that shows other stuff like LUFS over both short time periods and over the entire tune, true peak, and dynamic range between TP and LUFS, I've settled in at : -11.5 LUFS for most of the tracks I'm mastering for CD. It's going to be a touch loud for streaming, but not TOO loud when they pull it down - it won't be smashed sounding. It's going to be a touch quiet for a modern CD, but not TOO quiet. And on most every tune, it gets the "compression / limiting" thing going enough to give some energy, without crushing and stomping the music to death. I also backed off my new happy EQ, and that was a good choice too as I was getting a bit too twist happy. For this round of music (western cowboy tunes), I ended up hitting the VariMu compression 1-2 dB, the Silver Bullet in A mode to shave off some transients gently in the analog world, used the tight and vintage filters on the Silver Bullet, along with (sometimes) the Sub boost, and of course the Air boost. After that I hit the Miad EQ's - usually with a couple dB or so @ 45Hz for some low end thump, a tiny bit of 330 boost to analogize the mix without clouding it. 1.2, 1.5 or 1.8 boost depending on tune to bring out some excitement after the compression cycles, and some 6.8k low HF to get some definition. Overall, I'm happy. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 19:25:14 GMT -6
Sorry guys and gals, I could honestly be out of the loop.. When did we stop having to comply with standards in video and audio for broadcast? It is easily searchable www.r128audio.com/, www.soundonsound.com/techniques/end-loudness-war.. As far as I know this has been in effect since 2012 in certain countries, when it comes to music in general it seems to be a bit of a whatever train of thought but for certain industries there's a path to follow. |
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Post by matt on Apr 23, 2018 20:13:19 GMT -6
When did we stop having to comply with standards in video and audio for broadcast? Just a guess, but: only the final release needs to be compliant. Intermediate work, like what drbill produces, is not subject to the standard. I have no experience, only thinking about potential reasons why. |
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