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Post by kcatthedog on May 20, 2019 2:35:50 GMT -6
@strictly Thank you.
I feel that Josh is committed to building the best gear he can.
I hope he introduces into the new newsletter an update to build thread and FAQ, where he just discusses any changes that he believes are required. I think clients would value this, that it would increase their engagement and reduce concerns.
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Post by stam on May 20, 2019 4:53:05 GMT -6
This is the only day and age that consumers can go on an international forum and demand a designer and manufacturer give them details on individual parts. It just seems a little ridiculous to me. Josh is way more accommodating then I would be. Imagine a band coming to you and demanding to know every single plug in or eq setting you used on a mix. Am I wrong? I could not concur more with your statement. Thanks for your words of wisdom.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 20, 2019 7:05:13 GMT -6
How many of these capacitors are in the unit? 4? 6? 10? Let’s just say he saved $4 per unit...it’s not like he’s selling 10,000 of these things. That’s not enough to cause penny pinching nefarious behavior.
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 20, 2019 7:44:37 GMT -6
This is the only day and age that consumers can go on an international forum and demand a designer and manufacturer give them details on individual parts. It just seems a little ridiculous to me. Josh is way more accommodating then I would be. Imagine a band coming to you and demanding to know every single plug in or eq setting you used on a mix. Am I wrong? Yes, you're wrong. If I advertised that my masters use a Fairchild on them, and it's extra special, and better than all the studios that don't have one. Extra MOJO and spice. You get the master and then find out it had a UA Fairchild plug instead of the real thing. Sure, the master sounds great, but you'd want to know why it wasn't as advertised. You'd also be wondering if it would actually sound better with the real hardware. If you advertise the parts and deliver something different, you'll get questions. If you don't mention the transistors you're using, nobody will complain if they're the same that Warm is using.
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Post by forgotteng on May 20, 2019 7:52:41 GMT -6
This is the only day and age that consumers can go on an international forum and demand a designer and manufacturer give them details on individual parts. It just seems a little ridiculous to me. Josh is way more accommodating then I would be. Imagine a band coming to you and demanding to know every single plug in or eq setting you used on a mix. Am I wrong? Yes, you're wrong. If I advertised that my masters use a Fairchild on them, and it's extra special, and better than all the studios that don't have one. Extra MOJO and spice. You get the master and then find out it had a UA Fairchild plug instead of the real thing. Sure, the master sounds great, but you'd want to know why it wasn't as advertised. You'd also be wondering if it would actually sound better with the real hardware. If you advertise the parts and deliver something different, you'll get questions. If you don't mention the transistors you're using, nobody will complain if they're the same that Warm is using. Noted
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 20, 2019 7:54:11 GMT -6
How many of these capacitors are in the unit? 4? 6? 10? Let’s just say he saved $4 per unit...it’s not like he’s selling 10,000 of these things. That’s not enough to cause penny pinching nefarious behavior. It's not about the savings per unit. It's about the orders that were initially placed because of the premium parts list over the other units that are on the market using fewer premium parts. Also, FWIW, I've purchased 3 Stam products and am waiting on 2 more. I think the 2A and ADG sound great and can't wait for my other orders. I'm not a hater, just being honest.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 20, 2019 8:01:24 GMT -6
No, I get it...I just think all the hullabaloo about parts that contribute maaaaaaaaaaaybe 1% of the sound is just a bit over the top. Like - I have bigger issues with the wait. If we were talking about transformers - sure. But the opamp comparison is over stating it a bit.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 20, 2019 8:01:52 GMT -6
And I usually vote with my wallet. If something bothers me enough, I don’t buy again.
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 20, 2019 8:05:13 GMT -6
No, I get it...I just think all the hullabaloo about parts that contribute maaaaaaaaaaaybe 1% of the sound is just a bit over the top. Like - I have bigger issues with the wait. If we were talking about transformers - sure. But the opamp comparison is over stating it a bit. Same here. I'm not buying because of the caps. I'm not smart enough and don't have good enough ears to care. I like the stuff I have, so I purchased more. The wait is MUCH more of an issue for me.
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Post by stam on May 20, 2019 10:46:38 GMT -6
The best parts where put into this machine, period. I updated the website and offer a refund for those who don't want it because it said BC814 transistors and Toshiba 2N3055 originally. I tried them, it didn't work for mass production, they sounded horrible and had all kind of stability issues, tried another batch, same result. I decided to change them and it sounded better. Note that the sound is the same, when I say horrible it is because we had oscillation, noise, etc... as they might have been counterfeit or just bad batches with bad HF readings ..
We chose what sounded best, not what was cheaper. We are taking cents here
The site has been updated, I doubt anybody bought this because they think that a BC184 sounds different to a BC550, they dont. It's the same
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Post by stam on May 20, 2019 10:47:58 GMT -6
This is the only day and age that consumers can go on an international forum and demand a designer and manufacturer give them details on individual parts. It just seems a little ridiculous to me. Josh is way more accommodating then I would be. Imagine a band coming to you and demanding to know every single plug in or eq setting you used on a mix. Am I wrong? Yes, you're wrong. If I advertised that my masters use a Fairchild on them, and it's extra special, and better than all the studios that don't have one. Extra MOJO and spice. You get the master and then find out it had a UA Fairchild plug instead of the real thing. Sure, the master sounds great, but you'd want to know why it wasn't as advertised. You'd also be wondering if it would actually sound better with the real hardware. If you advertise the parts and deliver something different, you'll get questions. If you don't mention the transistors you're using, nobody will complain if they're the same that Warm is using. Quite an exaggeration as an example It would have been more like "They used a Fairchild with new tubes because the old NOS failed" instead of a Plugin. You do the best with what is available I could have send all of them with BC184 and get them all returned because of oscillation and noise Pointless.
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Post by stam on May 20, 2019 11:02:56 GMT -6
strictlyanalog Speaking of answers and as someone interested in this unit, could you please specify the exact parts you are claiming are cheap Chinese parts by their board placement number and their specific part number? Thx. I was referring to the Illinois Capaciotr MWR capacitors in the LCR network in the EQ section (the yello tubular ones). These are polyester metalized film capacitors which aren't really the best capacitors to use in this application. Polystyrene capacitors would typically be a better choice. I've asked Josh to point out where the polystyrene capacitors are that he said are in his unit but I haven't received a reply yet. I'm not trying to discredit anyone; I'm simply trying to get the straight facts which I don't think is too much to ask. Yes, I'm a new memember here. Who am I? I'm just a nobody with a small home studio that knows a little bit about audio electronics. Take it for what it's worth. All in all, I agree with the sentiment that as long as it sounds good, who cares, but I think one can still have that sentiment while seeking the truth. If you bought an Avedis E27 with the Avedis 1122 Opamps but you received a unit with a cheap knockoff opamp and it didn't sound like your buddies genuine unit, would you be cool with it? Polystyrene capacitors would be a better choice ? Really?
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Post by stam on May 20, 2019 12:12:12 GMT -6
strictlyanalog Speaking of answers and as someone interested in this unit, could you please specify the exact parts you are claiming are cheap Chinese parts by their board placement number and their specific part number? Thx. I was referring to the Illinois Capaciotr MWR capacitors in the LCR network in the EQ section (the yello tubular ones). These are polyester metalized film capacitors which aren't really the best capacitors to use in this application. Polystyrene capacitors would typically be a better choice. I've asked Josh to point out where the polystyrene capacitors are that he said are in his unit but I haven't received a reply yet. I'm not trying to discredit anyone; I'm simply trying to get the straight facts which I don't think is too much to ask. Yes, I'm a new memember here. Who am I? I'm just a nobody with a small home studio that knows a little bit about audio electronics. Take it for what it's worth. All in all, I agree with the sentiment that as long as it sounds good, who cares, but I think one can still have that sentiment while seeking the truth. If you bought an Avedis E27 with the Avedis 1122 Opamps but you received a unit with a cheap knockoff opamp and it didn't sound like your buddies genuine unit, would you be cool with it? I don't mean to sound rude and I apologize in advance if I come across that way but claiming that polystyrene capacitors would be a better choice in a Neve 1073 EQ circuit reflects poor knowledge of electronics and audio design. You need up to 1uF capacitance, I am sure you know that polystyrene caps typically are in the pF range (up to 10nF ). Though higher values do exist those are extremely rare and have to be custom built but most importantly original Neve EQ capacitors were Mullard C280 (radial) and Mullard C296 (Axial). Both Polyester film caps. Proudly British stuff. Later branded Philips. Some clone brands use Panasonic film caps We use Polyester caps from former Mallory company, now a big holding called Cornell Dublier/Illinois Capacitors. Same material as an original Neve. Neve does use polystyrene caps, but in the BA283 module and guess what, so do we. In the same position and with the same values. About Metalized caps. I quote a Neve expert here "Only when high level currents (talking about few AMPERES!) are being pushed through the capacitor a minimal difference whether the plates are metallized or not exists, We are in the audio level currents domain (so very very low level of currents is flowing) so no difference AT ALL. And please don't say a word about parasitic, or "self," inductance, cause is strictly an effect of the construction of the capacitor, much more than a dielectric. Buy a lot of capacitors, swap and do a null test. It will be NULL. Snake oil, come on." Thanks Josh
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Post by kcatthedog on May 20, 2019 12:25:27 GMT -6
Josh, thanks for all the detail: much appreciated!
Again, I think it would be very informative and constructive to have a build update section in your newsletter,(Josh’s Blog!), where you just discuss build parts changes, what was required and what you think the best option is.
Essentially, like the above but just the facts.
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 20, 2019 12:31:37 GMT -6
Josh, thanks for all the detail: much appreciated! Again, I think it would be very informative and constructive to have a build update section in your newsletter,(Josh’s Blog!), where you just discuss build parts changes, what was required and what you think the best option is. Essentially, like the above but just the facts. A newsletter period would be a good start. 😂😂
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Post by kcatthedog on May 20, 2019 14:00:32 GMT -6
The newsletter is supposed to drop in May.
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Post by strictlyanalog on May 20, 2019 16:04:17 GMT -6
I don't mean to sound rude and I apologize in advance if I come across that way but claiming that polystyrene capacitors would be a better choice in a Neve 1073 EQ circuit reflects poor knowledge of electronics and audio design. You need up to 1uF capacitance, I am sure you know that polystyrene caps typically are in the pF range (up to 10nF ). Though higher values do exist those are extremely rare and have to be custom built but most importantly original Neve EQ capacitors were Mullard C280 (radial) and Mullard C296 (Axial). Both Polyester film caps. Proudly British stuff. Later branded Philips. Some clone brands use Panasonic film caps We use Polyester caps from former Mallory company, now a big holding called Cornell Dublier/Illinois Capacitors. Same material as an original Neve. Neve does use polystyrene caps, but in the BA283 module and guess what, so do we. In the same position and with the same values. About Metalized caps. I quote a Neve expert here "Only when high level currents (talking about few AMPERES!) are being pushed through the capacitor a minimal difference whether the plates are metallized or not exists, We are in the audio level currents domain (so very very low level of currents is flowing) so no difference AT ALL. And please don't say a word about parasitic, or "self," inductance, cause is strictly an effect of the construction of the capacitor, much more than a dielectric. Buy a lot of capacitors, swap and do a null test. It will be NULL. Snake oil, come on." Thanks Josh
Hi Josh,
Thanks for responding and the interesting discussion.
I think you are right that the vintage Neve 1073's used Mullard/Phillips "Mustard" capacitors in the eq section which are polyester film and foil capacitors. Film and foil construction is different than metalized film in the IC MWR Series. Performance characteristics are different as well. I agree with you that those differences appear in applications much different than in a passive eq circuit (more so in high voltage/high current applications). In my experience metalized polyester capacitors still sound a bit more bright and thin and film and foil types sound a bit more dull and mushy generally. It's probably application specific to which capacitor sounds better. To be more authentic, the CDE WMF series is a modern polyester film and foil equivalent.
I don't think that negates the fact that polystyrene capacitors are a better choice to use in a passive eq circuit from an objective measurement standpoint. Polystyrene capacitors are made in values up to 1 uf by Reliable capacitors but they are large and expensive. These were not used to in the 1073 eq circuit so it's not relevant here, I get it.
Thank you for pointing out that the polystyrene capacitors you mentioned reside in the BA283 amp card and not in the eq section. I will need to do more research on this.
I don't think a null test would really work out with capacitor tolerances being +/- a few percent.
Thank you for engaging in this discussion and like I said before, I'll reserve my judgement until I actually get the unit in my hands. Maybe, I'm the only one who really takes an interest in these details but I enjoy the learning process.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 20, 2019 16:57:13 GMT -6
It’s an interesting discussion but semantic if sonic differences are not significant and or if owners like the sound of the gear ?
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Post by stam on May 20, 2019 17:06:58 GMT -6
I don't mean to sound rude and I apologize in advance if I come across that way but claiming that polystyrene capacitors would be a better choice in a Neve 1073 EQ circuit reflects poor knowledge of electronics and audio design. You need up to 1uF capacitance, I am sure you know that polystyrene caps typically are in the pF range (up to 10nF ). Though higher values do exist those are extremely rare and have to be custom built but most importantly original Neve EQ capacitors were Mullard C280 (radial) and Mullard C296 (Axial). Both Polyester film caps. Proudly British stuff. Later branded Philips. Some clone brands use Panasonic film caps We use Polyester caps from former Mallory company, now a big holding called Cornell Dublier/Illinois Capacitors. Same material as an original Neve. Neve does use polystyrene caps, but in the BA283 module and guess what, so do we. In the same position and with the same values. About Metalized caps. I quote a Neve expert here "Only when high level currents (talking about few AMPERES!) are being pushed through the capacitor a minimal difference whether the plates are metallized or not exists, We are in the audio level currents domain (so very very low level of currents is flowing) so no difference AT ALL. And please don't say a word about parasitic, or "self," inductance, cause is strictly an effect of the construction of the capacitor, much more than a dielectric. Buy a lot of capacitors, swap and do a null test. It will be NULL. Snake oil, come on." Thanks Josh
Hi Josh,
Thanks for responding and the interesting discussion.
I think you are right that the vintage Neve 1073's used Mullard/Phillips "Mustard" capacitors in the eq section which are polyester film and foil capacitors. Film and foil construction is different than metalized film in the IC MWR Series. Performance characteristics are different as well. I agree with you that those differences appear in applications much different than in a passive eq circuit (more so in high voltage/high current applications). In my experience metalized polyester capacitors still sound a bit more bright and thin and film and foil types sound a bit more dull and mushy generally. It's probably application specific to which capacitor sounds better. To be more authentic, the CDE WMF series is a modern polyester film and foil equivalent.
I don't think that negates the fact that polystyrene capacitors are a better choice to use in a passive eq circuit from an objective measurement standpoint. Polystyrene capacitors are made in values up to 1 uf by Reliable capacitors but they are large and expensive. These were not used to in the 1073 eq circuit so it's not relevant here, I get it.
Thank you for pointing out that the polystyrene capacitors you mentioned reside in the BA283 amp card and not in the eq section. I will need to do more research on this.
I don't think a null test would really work out with capacitor tolerances being +/- a few percent.
Thank you for engaging in this discussion and like I said before, I'll reserve my judgement until I actually get the unit in my hands. Maybe, I'm the only one who really takes an interest in these details but I enjoy the learning process.
Well, it does. It is very easy and reliable to perform a null test: Grab a capacitance meter, measure 2 caps (polystyrene and foil in this case) and find a couple with the exact capacitance to zero the tolerance error. Measure again to double check for capacimeter error. This way you can perform the most accurate null test you can, also in this very peculiar application (passive eq circuit). We did, and result difference is null. After this test is still not clear why a polystyrene could be a better choice in a passive EQ circuit. Snake oil and forum amenities again. We are scientists, and rely on tests. For the sake of precision polystyrene caps are also in Neve B184/284 modules, of course in the usual pF range, acting around the transistors as very HF filters. Enjoy the learning process. PM your PayPal email to check your order please Thanks
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Post by kcatthedog on May 20, 2019 17:17:17 GMT -6
Josh,
I have read that one element of the neve sound is that in a good way circuits were overdesigned to pass wide frequency ranges, greater than human hearing but with very thorough and thoughtful electronic design for excellent performance.
As you go into these interesting detailed circuit and part descriptions and how they interact under load , makes me think that good over design point is true ?
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Post by MorEQsThanAnswers on May 20, 2019 17:57:59 GMT -6
Imagine a band coming to you and demanding to know every single plug in or eq setting you used on a mix. Am I wrong? I'm guessing you don't work in Hip-hop. Holy shit dude... you have no idea "Give a rapper a mix, he eats for a day. Give him a session file with a vocal chain, YOU never eat again." -Hoot I'm coining that... you heard it here first!!
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Post by winetree on May 20, 2019 20:26:10 GMT -6
What gets me is the fact that I can't get an answer to the the 1073 Invoice question I have. I've e-mail Carmilla and Stam several times. I even posted my concerns on this thread without an answer. Yet Stam can answer and defend all the parts questions, and continues to ignore costumers questions. He's had my deposit for over a year , I think I deserve a response. I've dealt with a lot of transactions, none like this.
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Post by stam on May 21, 2019 1:03:03 GMT -6
What gets me is the fact that I can't get an answer to the the 1073 Invoice question I have. I've e-mail Carmilla and Stam several times. I even posted my concerns on this thread without an answer. Yet Stam can answer and defend all the parts questions, and continues to ignore costumers questions. He's had my deposit for over a year , I think I deserve a response. I've dealt with a lot of transactions, none like this. What is your question?
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Post by pope on May 21, 2019 5:17:51 GMT -6
Stam, it'll be nice if you start publishing specs for your gear. Unfortunately AB tests are only half the story.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 21, 2019 7:05:54 GMT -6
Ok. Back on topic.
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