|
Post by EmRR on Apr 17, 2018 6:06:05 GMT -6
As a 'get off my lawn' old timer, my personal preference for pop music is -12 to -9 dB dynamic range. There are exceptions, but my preference is that range. I'm with ya. Adding to that, even at that range I compare mastered with raw on a good system and prefer the dynamics of raw in an A/B, pretty much every time.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Apr 17, 2018 10:20:57 GMT -6
This loudness war is a product of the corporate mentality. If there are modern artists with any sort of spirit resembling what I've heard 70s punk bands had, I'm not finding them. Corpporate mentality, sure to some extent. To a larger degree it's because music has been taken over by Madison Avenue because the labels are no longer run by real music people. Songs for broadcasy/promotion are chose by robotic algorithm and focus groups, not by dedicated peopole with individual tastes. The reason there's no spireit in the new bands is thgat kidfs are sold on the idea the creativity comes in boxes from Banjo Mart - being "new" and "crewative" is buying a new pedal or multiFX monstrosity, not by concentrating on music. And their idfea of "music production" comes from how-to videos produced by people in the pay of companies whose business is selling those gioazmos and software. There was nothing wrong wioth SOPA and PIPA and you didn't read any valid criticism from various sources. Almost all the "critisism" was produced by an organized consortium of tech companies organized largely by Google, which funds nearly all anti-copyright an d anti-artist rights activityy. When the idea for SOPA was first proposed, Google called a secret meeting of many internet/tech companies to create an organized plan of propaganda to kill the proposed law. Google also spent more money on this, mostly in illegal lobbying, than the entire gross income of the record industry for that year. You can look this up in back issues of Chris Castle's (a well known and respected copyright lawyer) blog and The Trichordist, an artist rights newsletter with a close association with, among others, David Lowrey (acvtivist and leader of the bands Camper Van Beethoven and Cracker). These are about the only sources where you can find straight information other than reading the actual text of the bills, which I'm pretty sure you have not done or you would not have the attitude you do. When Wikipedia did their "strike" against the bills, that was a Google operation from the start. Google controls Wikipedia by the simple expedient of matching all contributions one for one. That means Google controls 50% of Wikipedia's funding. Google does the same thing with many, many allegedly "independent" consultants, pundits, educational institutions, etc, all of which can be counted on to parrot whatever Google tells them to on the subject of copyright and piracy. Google actively supports piracy. So all those "various sources" you read are not "various" at all - they're all bought and paid for by Google. That's what I mean by "illegal lobbying" because all that funding is under the guise of "philanhropic contributions" and is not reported as lobbying at all, although that's exactly what it is. When the EFF comes out with a pro piracy, anti SOPA position, that's Google talking, because Google is the main funder of the EFF. Whan some professor at a well known university expresses an "expert opinion" that SOPA or PIPA will "break the internet", take a look a where his grant funding comes from. Dig far enough and you'll find Google. Google has the destruction of copyright and the royalty system at the very core of their mission statement because it's in direct conflict with their core goal of creating a central repository of all information, art, literature, etc, (That they control) which has been their primary public goal from the very beginning. It's not suppressing so much as promoting. For example, some people start getting concerned that the civil rights movement is getting too much traction and becoming mainstream into the culture, and a strong force behind it is positive, forward looking soul music like that of the '70s and '80s. They see a small niche in the hip-hop scene of violent "gengsta rappers" who are pretty much the antitheses of the positive, integrationist influences. So they influence the labels to put a lot of money behind it because, as Clive Davis said in his book, to not support that would be "against free speech". Yes, he actually said that. Gangsta rap, of course, scared the crap out of a lot of white liberals and gave an excuse to conservatives and racists that is still being felt to this day. It also was very effective in tearing down the positive image of black people that had been painfully constructed by very hard work since the '60s. by playing on all the old racist stereotypes. Piracy is still the bugaboo that allows streaming sites to rip off artists. "If they don't get it from us they'll just steal it for free and then you won't have anything." "We can't pay you a fair royalty becauase then they'll just steal it from pirate sites andf you won't have anything." All that crap. Piracy is the foundation on which streaming is built. There were actually people in the early oughties who discussed this strategy openly, the founders of Napster among them. I've gotta run now, have an appointment to take the car in for servicing. I'll have to proofread later - apologies for the typos!
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Apr 17, 2018 12:49:39 GMT -6
Also, I think in your teens early 20s you sort of ingrain what it is you are going to like for a lifetime. Nostalgia plays a large part in preference as well.. particularly if there is a girl involved with a song you remember....8) And there was, and she was magic 8) Times have changed, thats reality. Cheers Wiz I don't agree at all, really. I think it depends on what you're exposed to and your general interest in music. When I was a little kids I'd listen to whatever the teenagers I was around were listening to of the Top 40 stations. Old school Top 40 was really eclectic - you'd get rockabilly, doo-wop, R&B, Sinatra style crooners, jazz, C&W, hard core blues, even a little pop-classical all mixed together. When I was about 11 I was introduced to Kingston Trio style pop-folk music at summer camp, which led to an intrerest in guitar and teacher who introduced me to the "real" folk music scene. That introduced me to electric blues and Appalachian Bluegrass. Right about that time (13) the British Invasion hit and I became a Beatles fan until I heard the Stones and. a bit later, The Yardbirds. By that time I'd switched to electric and started my first band. During the '60s rock went through an evolution and branching. By that time I was about half into psychedelic rock and half into purist electric blues. I was also interested in Byrds/Burritos/The Band type country rock (which was very hip with a certain circle of musicians I knew in Norman, Oklahoma. A couple of those guys ended up playing with The Holy Modal Rounders on the Easy Rider soundtrack.) , but thought the Eagles were fake. in '72 I moved to California and was into California psychedelic and blues (previously I'd been heavily influenced by the NYC scene around The Blues Project and the Brits.) By '74 I'd got pretty sick of arena rock and had retreated mostly into The Blues as a rather stuffy purist. Then about '77 I got introduced to punk rock and went "OH! THAT's where rock and roll went!" and got heavily immersed in the SF punk scene. The led me to working with a band that was being scouted by Sandy Pearlman and in turn I got involved with what now would be considered "classic metal". Around that time was when narrowcasting really started to hit radio. Shortly after that people's musical tastes started becoming, for lack of a better word, more monochromatic. And now, at the age of 67 I'm fronting a honkytonk country band, which was music that had always been around in Oklahoma but for most of my time there except for a short period in my early 20s had generally been regarded as pretty uncool - the country guys had their music store on the other side of btown and us rockers had ours, near the University, and only rarely would the twain meet. By the theory that our tastes are set in our teens I should be still mostly into blues influenced Brit-rock and SF psychedelia, but I rarely listen to much of that although I still enjoy it. But I enjoy a lot of different stuff. These days most of what I actively seek out is just country classics for the band to cover - we do a mix of around 1/3 originals and 2/3 classics. A lot of the time people don't know which is which, so I must be doing something right. For just plain listening it mighty be almost anything except hip-hop and modern "pop" music, with certain exceptions. I really liked Amy Winehouse and I like some of Lady Gaga's stuff. I really like Lucius when I saw them open for The Decemberists (who I found disappointing), but I haven't noticed them getting much action, probably because they don't exactly fit the programming algorithms.
|
|
|
Post by viciousbliss on Apr 17, 2018 18:15:42 GMT -6
I'm trying to recall the year when the labels started becoming corporatized. Something about some kinda merger or something. There's a term for the event like there's Black Saturday or whatever in wrestling. Mighta even been in the 80s. I've read about how Elektra Records was an awesome place at one time and by 1994 all the music people were gone. The movie business became like that too. Seems like creativity was encouraged up until there were a few examples of successful formulas. There was mammoth opposition to SOPA and PIPA from thousands of places. I'm definitely aware of big tech propaganda and all that, but it's not like every alternative media site, activist organization, law professor, etc was some paid shill. I read that even in 2010 the government shut down something like 72,000 pirate sites. It's definitely true that gangsta Rap did a lot of damage. I was very puzzled when the other teens ate that stuff up when we lived in one of the most crime-free places that there was. Then they started marrying that type of image with Rock and Metal and music has never really recovered. Some very powerful people have put in a lot of effort to normalize the gangsta rap lifestyle.
Streaming seems more about convenience than anything. It's even easier than using an Ipod. I don't bother with it myself. All my stuff is on hardrives and SD cards, cds are stored. But I rarely listen for fun since I'm always trying to figure out new things mixing. Getting to what Don was saying about travel, you can get some legit hifi out of portable stuff now. The Sansa Fuze, Clip+, and Clip Zip actually have near perfect measurements as shown by nwavguy. Whatever Ipod he measured was pretty close. I've heard all the most expensive stuff at a 2010 Head-Fi Canjam meet and the Yamaha Pro 400 hold up well against anything. The Audient ID14 makes a great DAC and amp even for something as demanding as a K701 despite the impedance not being a perfect match. And it does that running only on usb too.
Most everyone I've ever known sticks to what they liked as a teen or under 25. The boomers love the 60s and some 70s stuff. The Gen Xers still play their Smashing Pumpkins and Soundgarden. Or if they were into Metal, it's mainly 80s stuff and a few 90s bands like Pantera. I know one person who always played the best ofs for Quiet Riot and Twisted Sister over and over. When I've met musicians who were into 80s Hard Rock and Metal they were always the same age as Eddie Trunk with almost the exact same taste. They can be extremely resistant to checking out anything newer. The younger kids have more diverse tastes because they grew up without a dominant musical style along with easier access to music of the past.
Earlier today I went on Metal Blade's youtube channel. Blah. You would have to pay me to listen to that drek. Every single modern thing makes you feel like you're under assault, the loudness amplifying every fake and shrill element. There's a real sense of sameness from one band to the next due to the production. When stuff is that loud and all using the same fake drums, it strangles a lot of the individuality. Reminds me of WWE wrestlers all sounding like they're reading off the same script for the same character. Then I stumble onto a sample of some King Diamond Fatal Portrait vinyl and it's like "wow, space, smoothness, great-sounding real drums". Frontiers Records has the same problem. They sign all these legacy acts like Rick Springfield and then make em sound like every other act on their roster. Sometimes I forget how awful this stuff can be. It's like the musical equivalent of riding one of those coasters that pulverizes you the whole time. Like the former Mean Streak at Cedar Point.
|
|
|
Post by Tbone81 on Apr 17, 2018 18:49:09 GMT -6
Also, I think in your teens early 20s you sort of ingrain what it is you are going to like for a lifetime. Nostalgia plays a large part in preference as well.. particularly if there is a girl involved with a song you remember....8) And there was, and she was magic 8) Times have changed, thats reality. Cheers Wiz I don't agree at all, really. I think it depends on what you're exposed to and your general interest in music. Its been studied fairly well, and your general tastes in music are heavily influenced when you're young. "Young" being anywhere from 12-20. It's very much part of the Ego Identity vs Role Confusion crisis that Erik Erickson talked about. Obviously this is a generalization. And it doesn't mean that you can't or won't grow to like different things, but that the music from that era of your life will have had a disproportionately strong influence on you. However, as engineers and musicians we're often more open to new forms of music than the general population as a whole. There are exceptions to everything obviously.
|
|
|
Post by Tbone81 on Apr 17, 2018 18:56:30 GMT -6
I'm trying to recall the year when the labels started becoming corporatized. Something about some kinda merger or something. There's a term for the event like there's Black Saturday or whatever in wrestling. Mighta even been in the 80s. If you're referring to corporate mergers it started in force during the mid 90's I believe, although in many ways it was a continuation of a longer trend. I think the MCA/Polygram merger was 97 or 98? That merger was definitely a milestone, and a sign of things to come. The consolidation of record companies overlapped with the de-regulation of radio and the corporate swallow up by ClearChannel and CBS. In both those industries you have share holders, and not true music people, pulling all the strings and controlling all major decisions.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Apr 18, 2018 9:55:24 GMT -6
From my perspective, things aren't as bad out there streaming and touring as have been characterized in this thread. 2017 was the year streaming began to throw off royalties. Physical product is officially dead, and downloads are declining, but the surge in streaming is offsetting those loses. Big payers are Spotify, Amazon, Apple and even Youtube is paying real money now. BOC had a better year for the non-sync uses and streaming 'sales' than it has in a long while. Go figure. I read that half of streaming is legacy music and it's new artists that have trouble breaking through. I look at the Spotify charts and I don't know just about any of the artists, so there must be somebody doing it. Our touring remains strong. Yeah, we play a lot of casino/resorts but I frankly don't mind. It's a comfortable gig with minimum grief. We do festivals and our hard tickets are theaters and smaller halls. I net more today than I ever did playing arenas. I'm not complaining. Record companies are scrambling to adapt to the evolving business, while startups are re-inventing what 'record companies' do. Here's a vid series called "The Disrupters" made by The Economist. eydisrupters.films.economist.com/ey-disruptersScroll down to the one called "The Music Factory." Good stuff. I wouldn't count on Congress to fix anything for music creators. They've fobbed off royalty rates onto a rate court, and politicians you think would care are beholden to big data more than they are to big rap or r'n'b or pop. If anything, artists and writers will retain rights to their output more than they ever used to, even with major labels. It's just a pain that things change faster than you can keep up with. One more thing, I travel all the time and I see most people on planes now with some kind of better earbud with a seal, or headphones, and quite a few USB powered DAC's also. So some folk do care about the quality of their playback. Good points. This last calendar year has been more favorable to creators...but that's just a drop in the bucket. Tell me if I'm wrong here - but touring is the name of the game and by far the biggest money maker. I'm not sure royalties are enough to qualify as living wages.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Apr 18, 2018 11:13:43 GMT -6
I'm trying to recall the year when the labels started becoming corporatized. Something about some kinda merger or something. There's a term for the event like there's Black Saturday or whatever in wrestling. Mighta even been in the 80s. I've read about how Elektra Records was an awesome place at one time and by 1994 all the music people were gone. The movie business became like that too. Seems like creativity was encouraged up until there were a few examples of successful formulas. You can't believe everything you read. My friend Howie Klein, founder of 415 records and later head of Sire left his last industry job as president of Epic records around the turn of the century. Howie started his career as a punk rock DJ on KSAN. The consolidation of the record industry was a 21st century phenomenon (there had been a fair amount previously but it wasn't endemic), driven by..... yes, piracy. Piracy drove nearly all the indies out of business or forced their ownerts to sell out to the majors and forced the remaining real muic people out of their key positions at quasi-independent subsidiary labels like Epic, which was a division of CBS/Columbia before its takeover by Sony. Nearly all the important ones were. Then there were also the hard-core pirates who were just - pirates. And a lot of really cluesless dupes like yourself who parrotted what they were told from the main sources. You have to understand, Google funds a LOT of different "influences" all over the internet and academia. A LOT. More than you could ever imagine. The give grants to well known academics at all the major universities and colleges, they fund vast numbers of bloggers, they bankroll the EFF and similar "liberal" legal entities, the support pundits like Lefsetz, PLUS they pour huge sums into aboveboard lobbying. You have NO IDEA how pervasive Google's reach is on the internet and in media. Just look at the number of sites that are funded by Google placed advertising. A majority of pirate sites were bankrolled by Google ads. A majority of "independent" blogs run Google ads. Google is the largest purveyor of advertising on the internert, by orders of magnitude. That gives them tremendous influence. As they said back during the Watergate hearings, "Follow the money!" Dig it - there's nothing you can say on this I haven't already heard many. many times before. I've been involved with the Artist Rights movement for nigh on ten years now and had ties to various associated entities on both sides of the question far longer than that - nearly as long as personal computers have existed, years before the IBM PC. The modern phone has usurped the function of the Ipod and incorporated it with streaming acvcess. Thios is largely due the the wireless Telcos using music as a loss-leader to sell service.IOt started with piracy ()You havbe room to download 8 nillion songs" and naturally branched into it "legal" equivalent. And yeah, it's all about convenience. But there's no reason that couldn't be combined with sales. I have nothing on my phone,. I do have an Ipod with a portion of my CD collection on it. I rarely use it. As you should know by now, measurements don't tell you everything and can, in fact, be highly misleading. I don't really expect any portable devicve to be very good - tolerable is OK. If I want good I user my car stereo, which is surprisingly good. I mostly have the Ipod so I don't have to listen if I'm in a public place playing crap. As I already discussed, that's largely the result of narrowcasting. If radio were to start broadcasting a more heterogeneous mix of music people's tastes would broaden.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Apr 18, 2018 12:02:55 GMT -6
I wouldn't count on Congress to fix anything for music creators. They've fobbed off royalty rates onto a rate court, and politicians you think would care are beholden to big data more than they are to big rap or r'n'b or pop. I think the key is to somehow remind Congress about the power of music to move people and shape public opinion. Of course, that's a two-edged sword. Yeah, there's been some real progress in that direction. Last time I was on a plane my Ipod battery died! I, personally, dislike phones when I can avoid them. I greatly prefer speakers. That comment about you having greater real income now than in the arena days is interesting - what would you attribute that to? Management costs? Touring expenses? I imagine you don't haul Godzilla around with you anymore..... Smaller crew/entourage? All of the above? At any rate, it's encouraging... and casinos certainly have the money to pay!
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Apr 18, 2018 12:28:24 GMT -6
I don't agree at all, really. I think it depends on what you're exposed to and your general interest in music. Its been studied fairly well, and your general tastes in music are heavily influenced when you're young. "Young" being anywhere from 12-20. It's very much part of the Ego Identity vs Role Confusion crisis that Erik Erickson talked about. Obviously this is a generalization. And it doesn't mean that you can't or won't grow to like different things, but that the music from that era of your life will have had a disproportionately strong influence on you. However, as engineers and musicians we're often more open to new forms of music than the general population as a whole. There are exceptions to everything obviously. As I said, I disagree. Most of the people I know in my age group seem to have wider tastes than younger people. As I said, I attribute this largely to narrowcasting. If you grow up with a wide variety of music you're likely to continue to have broader taste in general. If I was still into the music of my teens I'd still be listening to The Beatles, The Kingsmen, the early Kinks, The Yardbirds, etc, but I don't. It's a pleasant surprise when that stuff comes on the radio surrogate at the local hot dog stand (owned by my lead guitar player's kid), but I almost never seek it out unless I run into an online reference that reminds me. And I don't have any of it in my CD collection. In fact the only stuff I have from that time period in my collection is old C&W (which was definitely considered uncool back then) and some blues. And oddly ernough I find that some of the stuff from that era that I enjoy is stuff I hated back then. I don't believe it's a natural part of a person's development at all - I think it's externally imposed by commercial influences - narrowcasting. It's part of the systematic dumbing-down of society. Granted, I generally dislike most "modern" commercial stuff - but it isn't the music itself in most cases - it's the godawful production. I hear plenty of songs that I'd like if they didn't make me want to turn them down. Did you mean "Erik Erikson"? If so, like most psychologists, he's somewhat full of it. His theories may apply to some people but they almost certainly don't apply to many others. I've known a lot of psycholopgists and most of them spout nonsense most of the time and certainly should not be taken as authorities on human behavior in general.
|
|
|
Post by formatcyes on Apr 18, 2018 15:21:22 GMT -6
Freedom? No. What you're talking about is a world where slavery is endemic. Or, if you prefer, "techno-serfdom". Because staples will always have value. And people need them to survive and will have to pay for them. Somehow. I read more and better SF than you do, and understand the implications a HELL of a lot better. Emphasis on the word "Hell". And I understand the difference between fiction and prognostication. Off topic: This is why I bought a farming property 15 years ago, I could see the writing on the wall. My farming income is climbing however if I do a gig I get payed the same as I did in 1992 WTF. Music deserves so much better it's the sound track to our lives and at the moment it's sounding like a horror movie. On topic: I cannot listen to brick walled music it hurts my ears after a few minutes. Remastered = do not play.
|
|
|
Post by jeremygillespie on Apr 18, 2018 15:30:15 GMT -6
Freedom? No. What you're talking about is a world where slavery is endemic. Or, if you prefer, "techno-serfdom". Because staples will always have value. And people need them to survive and will have to pay for them. Somehow. I read more and better SF than you do, and understand the implications a HELL of a lot better. Emphasis on the word "Hell". And I understand the difference between fiction and prognostication. Off topic: This is why I bought a farming property 15 years ago, I could see the writing on the wall. My farming income is climbing however if I do a gig I get payed the same as I did in 1992 WTF. Music deserves so much better it's the sound track to our lives and at the moment it's sounding like a horror movie. On topic: I cannot listen to brick walled music it hurts my ears after a few minutes. Remastered = do not play. The remastered stuff is the worst. Especially on the streaming services - if an album has been remastered, they don’t have the original ones up. Layla and other assorted love songs is straight up awful. Whoever is directing these remasters is doing a horrible job.
|
|
|
Post by M57 on Apr 18, 2018 16:15:38 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 18, 2018 16:33:52 GMT -6
I think the Beatles dramatically expanded their fans' appreciation of a wide range of genres. We don't have anybody like that today and we no longer have top 40 radio playing a wide range of genres based on recording sales.
Don't get me started on how our Motown records were murdered in stereo reissues. You can't legitimately judge any pop music prior to 1968 from a stereo version.
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 18, 2018 16:39:07 GMT -6
I've called him out a few times. You're not alone.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Apr 18, 2018 17:01:20 GMT -6
EXCUSE ME? Is your name "viciousbliss"? No? Dig it - I've been dealing with these pro-piracy apologists for about a decade. I call 'em like I see 'em. There is a large amount of incontrovertible evidence to back up my statements on this topic, yet he persists in parroting the same toxic propaganda that has played such a key role in the destructyion of our industry. I have cited sources where what I say can be verified (Chris Castle and The Trichordist); these are truly independent sources which both document their statements very carefully. I also suggested reading the actual texts opf the SOPA and PIPA bills, which Mr. Bliss has obviously not done - or he is not equipped to understand the language employed in such legislation. I have, in fact, read the full texts of said bills and can state with some authority that hye views and "information" on which Mr. Bliss bases his statements are, in reality, baldfaced lies. At one time I had a rather exhaustive collection of links to the sources of my information but unfortunately those links were lost to a dead hard drive. However the full texts of the bills in question are styill readily available and I strongly advise anybody who has an interest in expessing an opinion on the subject to read them carefully. It is an unfortunate fact of the internet age that any lie, no matter how egregious will, if repeated often and loudly enough, become accepted as "truth" by a majority of people even when the real truth is easily available to anyone who takes the trouble to look it up. Which most people are too lazy to do - which is what happened in the case of the SOPA and PIPA bills. So unless you have something substantive and germane to add to the conversation, please keep your gratuitous ad-hominem comments to yourself. When Mr. Bliss can demonstrate that he has gone to the trouble to actually look up the resources I've given and can discuss the subject intelligently without the parroting of propaganda I will be more than happy to retract my judgement rergardiong his views omn the subject. Until then I shall contrinue to regard his views rergarding this the same way the average person in a civilized country regards somebody who insists that the world is flat. Frankly I'm quite shocked that anybody involved in the business of music creation would espouse the views he supports. I thought that was over years ago.
|
|
|
Post by M57 on Apr 18, 2018 17:23:41 GMT -6
I could care less if you're wrong or your right. I'm not standing up for your or v's comments. I have nothing to add to the conversation for the moment and for that, I apologize to the community at large ..for taking things off-topic. Fortunately, I can't be bothered to start a separate thread to discuss your penchant for vitriol, general arrogance and lack of understanding about what ad hominem actually means. Carry on..
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Apr 18, 2018 20:56:44 GMT -6
I could care less if you're wrong or your right. I'm not standing up for your or v's comments. I have nothing to add to the conversation for the moment and for that, I apologize to the community at large ..for taking things off-topic. Fortunately, I can't be bothered to start a separate thread to discuss your penchant for vitriol, general arrogance and lack of understanding about what ad hominem actually means. Carry on.. OK, apology (such as it is) accepted. Please understand, I stand up for the rights of ALL of us in all the various areas of the music business. Sometimes it requires being perhaps a bit more harsh that I would prefer - but we need to have unity together, not give comfort and support to our very real enemies in this commercial war. Because that's what it is. I really, really wish it wasn't. Sometimes vitriol is ( very unfortunately) needed. What I fervently desire is that all of us be able to make a decent living from our art and craft, according to our abilities. Peace.
|
|
|
Post by Tbone81 on Apr 18, 2018 21:14:03 GMT -6
Its been studied fairly well, and your general tastes in music are heavily influenced when you're young. "Young" being anywhere from 12-20. It's very much part of the Ego Identity vs Role Confusion crisis that Erik Erickson talked about. Obviously this is a generalization. And it doesn't mean that you can't or won't grow to like different things, but that the music from that era of your life will have had a disproportionately strong influence on you. However, as engineers and musicians we're often more open to new forms of music than the general population as a whole. There are exceptions to everything obviously. Did you mean "Erik Erikson"? If so, like most psychologists, he's somewhat full of it. His theories may apply to some people but they almost certainly don't apply to many others. I've known a lot of psycholopgists and most of them spout nonsense most of the time and certainly should not be taken as authorities on human behavior in general. I was in the middle of a very well written response to this when I was interrupted by a phone call. At the end of it I realized I was wasting my time trying to communicate with someone that would rather be argumentative then have a genuine discussion. So...I'm off to spend my time doing something more worthwhile. I hope being smarter than a world renowned psychologist continues to serve you well.
|
|
|
Post by M57 on Apr 19, 2018 4:43:10 GMT -6
I could care less if you're wrong or your right. I'm not standing up for your or v's comments. I have nothing to add to the conversation for the moment and for that, I apologize to the community at large ..for taking things off-topic. Fortunately, I can't be bothered to start a separate thread to discuss your penchant for vitriol, general arrogance and lack of understanding about what ad hominem actually means. Carry on.. OK, apology (such as it is) accepted. Please understand, I stand up for the rights of ALL of us in all the various areas of the music business. Sometimes it requires being perhaps a bit more harsh that I would prefer - but we need to have unity together, not give comfort and support to our very real enemies in this commercial war. Because that's what it is. I really, really wish it wasn't. Sometimes vitriol is ( very unfortunately) needed. What I fervently desire is that all of us be able to make a decent living from our art and craft, according to our abilities. Peace. I'm pretty sure that most of us are here to share and learn from perspectives that differ from our own. I suspect that you are not here to learn so much as to engage in educating this community given your range of experiences and knowledge. Unfortunately, it's difficult for many of us to engage with your opinions when they are delivered with a side of invective. I for one don't even bother to read on the minute I see callous and fallacious rhetorical devices used in an argument. Just look at the post above this one. You are losing the very audience that can actually understand and thoughtfully engage with your opinions. If you are truly passionate about bringing about change through unity as you profess, then why the hell use language that insults and divides?
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Apr 19, 2018 9:35:00 GMT -6
OK, apology (such as it is) accepted. Please understand, I stand up for the rights of ALL of us in all the various areas of the music business. Sometimes it requires being perhaps a bit more harsh that I would prefer - but we need to have unity together, not give comfort and support to our very real enemies in this commercial war. Because that's what it is. I really, really wish it wasn't. Sometimes vitriol is ( very unfortunately) needed. What I fervently desire is that all of us be able to make a decent living from our art and craft, according to our abilities. Peace. I'm pretty sure that most of us are here to share and learn from perspectives that differ from our own. I suspect that you are not here to learn so much as to engage in educating this community given your range of experiences and knowledge. Unfortunately, it's difficult for many of us to engage with your opinions when they are delivered with a side of invective. I for one don't even bother to read on the minute I see callous and fallacious rhetorical devices used in an argument. Just look at the post above this one. You are losing the very audience that can actually understand and thoughtfully engage with your opinions. If you are truly passionate about bringing about change through unity as you profess, then why the hell use language that insults and divides? You have a very good point. It would appear that after engaging in the same argument over the same subject a seeming infinite number of times over the past five years my temper has been sorely shortened on the subject, particulary when I get the the same false and toxic arguments from a person who is a member of the professional audio community (or purports to be) which has been so greviously damaged by the concerted assault against the music industry of which these issues form a major part.
|
|
|
Post by b1 on Apr 19, 2018 9:59:19 GMT -6
ugh, is this stuff still going on?... I never listen to the radio anymore anyway, and am extremely selective on what I listen to these days. I think the people that have rebelled against this loudness model are the torch-bearers of the future of music. Let those labels stay in their classless world (dunno why people still buy into it). Real music is everywhere else for the discriminating listeners... The question in my mind, how do you create discriminating listeners?... Lead by example is the only thing I can imagine.
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 19, 2018 10:09:09 GMT -6
You have a very good point. It would appear that after engaging in the same argument over the same subject a seeming infinite number of times over the past five years my temper has been sorely shortened on the subject, particulary when I get the the same false and toxic arguments from a person who is a member of the professional audio community (or purports to be) which has been so greviously damaged by the concerted assault against the music industry of which these issues form a major part. The toxic attitude isn't just on this subject. It's nearly every subject that you post on.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 10:18:24 GMT -6
I for one don't even bother to read on the minute I see callous and fallacious rhetorical devices used in an argument. Same here. John has had some incredibly invaluable info to share over the years, but as soon as I see the abusive language I just skip ahead. It just gets me angry and I don't need that. Have some temperance John, even when you are riled up. I think it would do a lot to improve the communities (online and off) of which you are a loved and important part. Peace from Paris too.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Apr 19, 2018 10:23:00 GMT -6
OK - back on topic
|
|