|
Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 13, 2018 7:49:06 GMT -6
Jcoutou, wow, I almost forgot that track, it was one of the rougher takes we did then, and was left unfinished. That demo surfaced as a CD decades later. I was 17. Funny, we're discussing extra loud recordings, and the Pandora album will be released by Got Kinda Lost records on vinyl this year, and I'll make sure it'll be done right.
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Apr 13, 2018 8:13:04 GMT -6
Expanders? what are you talking about? radio stations do not and never have use(d) esxpanders - they use compressors, limiters, and levelling amplifiers, not expanders. Expanders are probably illegal - anything that might cause a station to generate a signal level that exceeds a legally specified maximum is. Lots of combo expander compressors in use in radio, usually called AGC's (automatic gain controls). Have been in use since the early 1960's. There's a long list of them. I've got a pair of RCA/NBC AGC's that date to the late 1930's. These devices come after the console and before the final limiter.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Apr 13, 2018 8:15:35 GMT -6
You can practically just exchange vocalists on 7 out of 10 Modern Country songs, because you wouldn't hear any difference in style, sound, musical construction or production. It’s so profoundly depressing. It’s because it’s the same 10-20 writers, the same 20-50 players, the same 5-10 mixers. I do think the players can play anything if they were given the leeway...and mixers are often given a box to work in. But musically, there is a template (an ever-moving one) that you have to write within to even have a shot. And then you have to be extremely well connected. Someone has a beat that works - all of a sudden it’s everywhere. Etc. I’ve pretty much given up and found myself leaning more traditional country. Just trying not to be derivative. Maybe classic lyrics and feel with a more modern approach production wise.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Apr 13, 2018 8:20:59 GMT -6
"and hoping for a grand return to your favorite times and experiences isn't likely to happen. " This is almost certainly the truth. No one wants to be the first to back down. I used to think things would change - that all it took was that one person to slip through and then people would change...but I guess I’m applying that to artists and not mixing. I thought Country would change for the better when Stapleton came around (and actually it has gotten a little better, I guess)...that when people were presented with Stapleton and FGL back to back, it would be plainly evident. But it hasn’t happened on the whole. People still flock to the lowest common denominator. Anyway, mixing wise this is even tougher because loud does initially sound better to most people.
|
|
|
Post by Blackdawg on Apr 13, 2018 9:37:04 GMT -6
Well..I agree..with everyone! The fact of the matter is, its not our choice. Period. End of story. Its the artists and the producers choice. We are simply here along for the ride. We can all bitch and moan about anything but its never going to change until their taste's change and their demands change. And that is not to say that there aren't people out there that still produce great dynamic tracks and albums. Mark Ronsen comes to mind as a guy that does not crush his stuff at all. Think most of his stuff is -14LUFS to -9 max Glass Animals first CD Zaba is AMAZINGLY dynamic. I was blown away when i heard the final chorus of the song Wryd and it was the loudest part of the track. Which to some is how the last chorus should be! There are artists out there that like dynamic range and the lot. We just don't get the luxury of choosing who we work with. To those saying that the music isn't as ground breaking as it was back in the day that is simple. Technology has changed a LOT. For one, back then if you wanted a recording you HAD to go to a studio. You couldn't afford the gear and maintaining it and knowing how it all worked was a full time job. Now you can buy a basic laptop or tablet and a small interface and you're done. Start recording and editing. This makes for an influx of people putting stuff out there. So you just have to weed through all the BS to find the innovation. Its not impossible to find great music today. But it is work to wade through the crap. None of that is new info to anyone in here. Young or old. The only thing we can hope to do is try and explain to the producer it doesn't sound better at -5 compared to -9 or whatever. Hopefully they will trust us. There are FAR too many screw ups that have happened in the industry over the last 40 years to undo it all quickly. We can't undo over compression and multiband compression/expansion on radio stations, thats been happening for 50 years. We can't get rid of mp3s and sure as hell will never go back to CDs the best format the public has ever had easy access too. Streaming is the future and we all hate it but too bad. The people have spoken. We must adapt to survive and find our way to ensure everything we can to make all just sound.. Great Because that's our job.
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Apr 13, 2018 9:52:39 GMT -6
Anyone know any other well known albums released in the last 10 years that rejected the loudness war? PJ Harvey Let England Shake is not a pushed mix, frequent long periods with no transients hitting zero, and it's huge and expansive sounding.....doesn't have a lot of low end in the arrangements either, but probably a lot in the reverberant space it was tracked in. Clearly plenty of leveling of individual sounds, but adding up to a very hi-fi result. Not sure what the RMS reads, don't think I have anything that displays LUF's, will go back and confirm memory to be correct. I still believe final loudness to be a downstream domain, not mix domain, for the way I work. Any old acoustic singer songwriter record is easily always a louder mix than a rock record with drums, the nature of transients if you're at all attempting to preserve them.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Apr 13, 2018 10:13:32 GMT -6
Nobody ever learned to MIX from online tutorials. And those who believe they do are, for the most part, lazy idiots, looking for "secrets" and "shortcuts" that don't exist. Mixing is something that you learn by DOING, and by LISTENING to what you do. It's a long, hard, evolutionary process. You have to be able to undertstand what the music is. Sometimes horribly distorted is exactly the ticket. Sometimes it's disaster. The Misfits' early recordings are a brilliant mess, if they had been recorded "correctly" they would never have succeded. But that approach on, say, Tom Petty, would have been horrible. The approach I take with my current retro country music is vastly different that the approach I took doing punk rock in the '70s and early "80s and both were quite different from my approach doing metal in the '80s. None of those would have been appropriate on the gigs I did with Mary Wells, Sun Ra, Nico, or Robert Fripp. You have to undertstand the artist and the music. I never said anything about learning to mix from online tutorials. I was simply referring to many videos I have seen where modern pop country mixers explain their process. I thought it was appropriate because the original post was about pop country, which I also find to be a big culprit in the “too loud” music scene. Well, I just ignore all those tutorials and, as I just did, tell others to do so as well. When people start using their own ears instead of doing things "the way it's done" that they saw in some cockamamie tutorial maybe we'll get some sanity back in the mix game. Till then it's just "monkey see, monkey do." As to what mastering engineers can do about it, well, how about sending files back to these dumb kids with a note "please remix at a level below -15 dBfs so that I have enough room to work."
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Apr 13, 2018 10:17:51 GMT -6
Expanders? what are you talking about? radio stations do not and never have use(d) esxpanders - they use compressors, limiters, and levelling amplifiers, not expanders. Expanders are probably illegal - anything that might cause a station to generate a signal level that exceeds a legally specified maximum is. Lots of combo expander compressors in use in radio, usually called AGC's (automatic gain controls). Have been in use since the early 1960's. There's a long list of them. I've got a pair of RCA/NBC AGC's that date to the late 1930's. These devices come after the console and before the final limiter. I took the post to mean standalone expanders. Wasn't thinking's about the expansion component in AGCs, I generally think of those as "companders".
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Apr 13, 2018 10:32:58 GMT -6
The only thing we can hope to do is try and explain to the producer it doesn't sound better at -5 compared to -9 or whatever. Hopefully they will trust us. There are FAR too many screw ups that have happened in the industry over the last 40 years to undo it all quickly. We can't undo over compression and multiband compression/expansion on radio stations, thats been happening for 50 years. We can't get rid of mp3s and sure as hell will never go back to CDs the best format the public has ever had easy access too. Streaming is the future and we all hate it but too bad. The people have spoken. We must adapt to survive and find our way to ensure everything we can to make all just sound.. If "streaming is the future" then the furure is death, at least the way streaming is handled now, both from the audio aspect and the business aspect. If streaming continues to be the status quo there will never be money to support real art in popular music again - it will always be a few "cookie cutter megastars" on top and everyone else begging for scraps under the table. The people have spoken and what they say is "We want free everything, you don't need money because you do it for love and fun!" Screw dat! We need legal protections to bring normalcy back to the industry - and that means the demise of streaming as we know it. Think what would happen if the grocery business was handled the way music is currently handled! And there's a much stronger case to be made that people have a right to free food than there is for free music. Nobody ever died because they couldn't hear the latest hits.
|
|
|
Post by Blackdawg on Apr 13, 2018 10:51:47 GMT -6
The only thing we can hope to do is try and explain to the producer it doesn't sound better at -5 compared to -9 or whatever. Hopefully they will trust us. There are FAR too many screw ups that have happened in the industry over the last 40 years to undo it all quickly. We can't undo over compression and multiband compression/expansion on radio stations, thats been happening for 50 years. We can't get rid of mp3s and sure as hell will never go back to CDs the best format the public has ever had easy access too. Streaming is the future and we all hate it but too bad. The people have spoken. We must adapt to survive and find our way to ensure everything we can to make all just sound.. If "streaming is the future" then the furure is death, at least the way streaming is handled now, both from the audio aspect and the business aspect. If streaming continues to be the status quo there will never be money to support real art in popular music again - it will always be a few "cookie cutter megastars" on top and everyone else begging for scraps under the table. The people have spoken and what they say is "We want free everything, you don't need money because you do it for love and fun!" Screw dat! We need legal protections to bring normalcy back to the industry - and that means the demise of streaming as we know it. Think what would happen if the grocery business was handled the way music is currently handled! And there's a much stronger case to be made that people have a right to free food than there is for free music. Nobody ever died because they couldn't hear the latest hits. You are right! But saying streaming is the death of music is silly. We need to adapt. Which means we need things to change for the better. I never said we didn't need to change it, mostly because I didn't want to write a book of a post as it was already long The fact of the matter is, people want their music via streaming. Simple as that. Now how do we make it so its a profitable business again for not just labels but artists and producers a like? Thats a huge can o worms. But definitely needs to happen. Streaming isn't going anywhere though. Look at all the providers of streaming alone. Spotify, Youtube, Google, Amazon, Pandora, FM, Itunes, and more. Nothing is going to get rid of streaming completely ever and considering its a relatively new thing to the industry. You're damn right the current laws don't work for it at all. Lucky for us, this is happening: www.billboard.com/articles/business/8301735/music-modernization-act-introduced-congress-bipartisan-supportchange is happening. It just takes time.
|
|
|
Post by nick8801 on Apr 13, 2018 10:52:50 GMT -6
I never said anything about learning to mix from online tutorials. I was simply referring to many videos I have seen where modern pop country mixers explain their process. I thought it was appropriate because the original post was about pop country, which I also find to be a big culprit in the “too loud” music scene. Well, I just ignore all those tutorials and, as I just did, tell others to do so as well. When people start using their own ears instead of doing things "the way it's done" that they saw in some cockamamie tutorial maybe we'll get some sanity back in the mix game. Till then it's just "monkey see, monkey do." As to what mastering engineers can do about it, well, how about sending files back to these dumb kids with a note "please remix at a level below -15 dBfs so that I have enough room to work." I went to a mastering panel a few years back at AES. It was basically unanimous across the board that mixes are coming in too hot, and there is very little room for anything to work with. They also played the same tune with two different masters through a really nice full range PMC setup. Everyone in the room picked the master with more dynamics as the better sounding track. But that’s through a world class setup. Most people just don’t have access to that kind of listening environment. If I compare masters through my laptop speakers I usually pick the hotter one. I think someone needs to start pushing affordable hi fi for everyone. It will make the world a better place!
|
|
|
Post by Blackdawg on Apr 13, 2018 10:58:01 GMT -6
Well, I just ignore all those tutorials and, as I just did, tell others to do so as well. When people start using their own ears instead of doing things "the way it's done" that they saw in some cockamamie tutorial maybe we'll get some sanity back in the mix game. Till then it's just "monkey see, monkey do." As to what mastering engineers can do about it, well, how about sending files back to these dumb kids with a note "please remix at a level below -15 dBfs so that I have enough room to work." I went to a mastering panel a few years back at AES. It was basically unanimous across the board that mixes are coming in too hot, and there is very little room for anything to work with. They also played the same tune with two different masters through a really nice full range PMC setup. Everyone in the room picked the master with more dynamics as the better sounding track. But that’s through a world class setup. Most people just don’t have access to that kind of listening environment. If I compare masters through my laptop speakers I usually pick the hotter one. I think someone needs to start pushing affordable hi fi for everyone. It will make the world a better place! yeah this is one of the biggest disasters of the music industry IMO in the last 20 years. mp3s and ear buds. mp3s neutered the sound quality so people became used to shit quality there. And then ear buds became the normal also shit quality and that be came the normal. People aren't used to having nice stereo's anymore or even nicer headphones. This is also changing though. Thankfully, due to the hilarious cause of "fashion", over ear headphones are coming back. Thank you Dr Dre. Which gets people introduced to better headphones. Im not saying Beats by Dre are great sounding, but they are a stepping stone for some to pursue better sound. Its not much..but its a start in the right direction..
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Apr 13, 2018 11:05:01 GMT -6
I never said anything about learning to mix from online tutorials. I was simply referring to many videos I have seen where modern pop country mixers explain their process. I thought it was appropriate because the original post was about pop country, which I also find to be a big culprit in the “too loud” music scene. Well, I just ignore all those tutorials and, as I just did, tell others to do so as well. When people start using their own ears instead of doing things "the way it's done" that they saw in some cockamamie tutorial maybe we'll get some sanity back in the mix game. Till then it's just "monkey see, monkey do."As to what mastering engineers can do about it, well, how about sending files back to these dumb kids with a note "please remix at a level below -15 dBfs so that I have enough room to work." Man...JOHN!.....I couldn't agree with that more. The stories I could tell of young guys "imitating" the masters because of the masters tutorials online. Ugh. Tons of ruined music.
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Apr 13, 2018 11:06:56 GMT -6
The only thing we can hope to do is try and explain to the producer it doesn't sound better at -5 compared to -9 or whatever. Hopefully they will trust us. There are FAR too many screw ups that have happened in the industry over the last 40 years to undo it all quickly. We can't undo over compression and multiband compression/expansion on radio stations, thats been happening for 50 years. We can't get rid of mp3s and sure as hell will never go back to CDs the best format the public has ever had easy access too. Streaming is the future and we all hate it but too bad. The people have spoken. We must adapt to survive and find our way to ensure everything we can to make all just sound.. If "streaming is the future" then the furure is death, at least the way streaming is handled now, both from the audio aspect and the business aspect. If streaming continues to be the status quo there will never be money to support real art in popular music again - it will always be a few "cookie cutter megastars" on top and everyone else begging for scraps under the table. The people have spoken and what they say is "We want free everything, you don't need money because you do it for love and fun!" Screw dat! We need legal protections to bring normalcy back to the industry - and that means the demise of streaming as we know it. Think what would happen if the grocery business was handled the way music is currently handled! And there's a much stronger case to be made that people have a right to free food than there is for free music. Nobody ever died because they couldn't hear the latest hits. man, you're on this morning John. Spot on!!!! <<thumbsup>>
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Apr 13, 2018 11:09:17 GMT -6
What's that about all those '70's recording magazines being full of BS techniques that no one ever used, but are now widely taken as gospel? Hot engineers talking non-sense to throw people off? Never!
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Apr 13, 2018 11:09:37 GMT -6
"It just takes time"
Yeah, time that WE don't have. At least two generations of music innovators will be laid to waste in the interim.....
|
|
|
Post by Blackdawg on Apr 13, 2018 11:16:38 GMT -6
"It just takes time" Yeah, time that WE don't have. At least two generations of music innovators will be laid to waste in the interim..... can't make congress go any faster haha Plus in that regard, be better to get it right and pass something worth passing then rushing it through. Never works out for the little guy when that happens.
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Apr 13, 2018 11:33:43 GMT -6
"It just takes time" Yeah, time that WE don't have. At least two generations of music innovators will be laid to waste in the interim..... can't make congress go any faster haha Plus in that regard, be better to get it right and pass something worth passing then rushing it through. Never works out for the little guy when that happens. There is no fighting Google, Amazon, Apple, etc..... True. And it won't work out for the little guy here either. Congress has changed drastically in the last 20+ years. They are bought and owned by lobbyists at this point. I see no significant future for the "music BUSINESS". Music will return to a hobbyist endeavor like it was a hundred years ago.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Apr 13, 2018 11:33:47 GMT -6
If "streaming is the future" then the furure is death, at least the way streaming is handled now, both from the audio aspect and the business aspect. If streaming continues to be the status quo there will never be money to support real art in popular music again - it will always be a few "cookie cutter megastars" on top and everyone else begging for scraps under the table. The people have spoken and what they say is "We want free everything, you don't need money because you do it for love and fun!" Screw dat! We need legal protections to bring normalcy back to the industry - and that means the demise of streaming as we know it. Think what would happen if the grocery business was handled the way music is currently handled! And there's a much stronger case to be made that people have a right to free food than there is for free music. Nobody ever died because they couldn't hear the latest hits. You are right! But saying streaming is the death of music is silly. We need to adapt. Which means we need things to change for the better. I never said we didn't need to change it, mostly because I didn't want to write a book of a post as it was already long The fact of the matter is, people want their music via streaming. Simple as that. Now how do we make it so its a profitable business again for not just labels but artists and producers a like? Thats a huge can o worms. But definitely needs to happen. Streaming isn't going anywhere though. Look at all the providers of streaming alone. Spotify, Youtube, Google, Amazon, Pandora, FM, Itunes, and more. Nothing is going to get rid of streaming completely ever and considering its a relatively new thing to the industry. You're damn right the current laws don't work for it at all. Lucky for us, this is happening: www.billboard.com/articles/business/8301735/music-modernization-act-introduced-congress-bipartisan-supportchange is happening. It just takes time. Yeah and I want a million dollars and a flying car! As Mick Jagger said "You can't always get what you want - but if you try sometimes you just might find you get what you need!" Look at all those providers of streaming - who rip off all the people who provide what their businesses are based on AND STILL CAN'T TURN A PROFIT! As one of the bigwigs at Spotify said in a rare moment of candor, "Music isn't Spotiy's product. Spotify's product is Spotify!" The whole streaming thing is a big Ponzi scheme aimed at an eventual IPO - except for Apple, where it's a loss-leader aimed at selling more gizmos. And the whole thing is supported by the threat of piracy. Without the threat of piracy looming nobody would even dream of licensing music to streaming services. Ergo, streaming is nothing more than legalized piracy, supported by fear and greed. People will pay a buck for a candy bar that lasts maybe 10 minutes, rots their teeth and gives them heart disease, yet they won't pay a buck for a song that lasts forever, gives infinite enjoyment, and has no bad effects on their health. WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE? What's wrong is that they can steal the song with impunity, but if they steal the candy bar they get busted for shoplifting. Maybe not every time, but often enough to instill the perception that there are consequences to stealing candy. WHERE ARE THE CONSEQUENCES TO STEALING MUSIC? And that's what the entire streaming "industry" is based on. What we need to do is turn the whole situation on its head. Since streaming has essentially made music piracy a non-issue for most of the public, now is the time to launch another, stronger anti-piracy offenmsive and get some real laws passed with some teeth. When that is accomplished the streaming industry won't have that sword to hold over our heads and we can stick it to the streaming companies the way they've been sticking it to us and force them to move to a pay system at a price that will rteturn an incentive for people to actually PURCHASE music again because in the long run it will be a better deal than paying 50 bucks a month for streaming.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Apr 13, 2018 11:42:54 GMT -6
If "streaming is the future" then the furure is death, at least the way streaming is handled now, both from the audio aspect and the business aspect. If streaming continues to be the status quo there will never be money to support real art in popular music again - it will always be a few "cookie cutter megastars" on top and everyone else begging for scraps under the table. The people have spoken and what they say is "We want free everything, you don't need money because you do it for love and fun!" Screw dat! We need legal protections to bring normalcy back to the industry - and that means the demise of streaming as we know it. Think what would happen if the grocery business was handled the way music is currently handled! And there's a much stronger case to be made that people have a right to free food than there is for free music. Nobody ever died because they couldn't hear the latest hits. man, you're on this morning John. Spot on!!!! <<thumbsup>> Hey, when I first came here I warned you guys that I'm an Artist's Rights activist!
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Apr 13, 2018 11:47:55 GMT -6
can't make congress go any faster haha Plus in that regard, be better to get it right and pass something worth passing then rushing it through. Never works out for the little guy when that happens. There is no fighting Google, Amazon, Apple, etc..... True. And it won't work out for the little guy here either. Congress has changed drastically in the last 20+ years. They are bought and owned by lobbyists at this point. I see no significant future for the "music BUSINESS". Music will return to a hobbyist endeavor like it was a hundred years ago. Well, it's looking like Congress just might be changing drastically again. We shall see. The thing is, if it IS changing in an anti-corruption direction we need to seize the moment before things revert to "business as usual..."
|
|
|
Post by Blackdawg on Apr 13, 2018 12:00:21 GMT -6
can't make congress go any faster haha Plus in that regard, be better to get it right and pass something worth passing then rushing it through. Never works out for the little guy when that happens. There is no fighting Google, Amazon, Apple, etc..... True. And it won't work out for the little guy here either. Congress has changed drastically in the last 20+ years. They are bought and owned by lobbyists at this point. I see no significant future for the "music BUSINESS". Music will return to a hobbyist endeavor like it was a hundred years ago. Sad but true. But I have hope I think something will become of it. And considering all the big names in the audio tech world have pretty much turned to targeting prosumer stuff..yeah. It practically already is mainly a hobby thing. But Music isn't going to go anywhere. People rely on it more than they realize. Not just consumers but also performers. I mean if you think about it the fact there is an entire industry dedicated to music is amazing really. How it'll play out in the long run...i don't know. But neither do you. We can only hope for the best and take actions to make it the best. You are right! But saying streaming is the death of music is silly. We need to adapt. Which means we need things to change for the better. I never said we didn't need to change it, mostly because I didn't want to write a book of a post as it was already long The fact of the matter is, people want their music via streaming. Simple as that. Now how do we make it so its a profitable business again for not just labels but artists and producers a like? Thats a huge can o worms. But definitely needs to happen. Streaming isn't going anywhere though. Look at all the providers of streaming alone. Spotify, Youtube, Google, Amazon, Pandora, FM, Itunes, and more. Nothing is going to get rid of streaming completely ever and considering its a relatively new thing to the industry. You're damn right the current laws don't work for it at all. Lucky for us, this is happening: www.billboard.com/articles/business/8301735/music-modernization-act-introduced-congress-bipartisan-supportchange is happening. It just takes time. Yeah and I want a million dollasrs and a flying car! As Mick Jagger said "You can't always get what you want - but if you try sometimes you just might find you get what you need!" Look at all those providers of streaming - who rip off all the people who provide what their businesses are based on AND STILL CAN'T TURN A PROFIT! As one of the bigwigs at Spotify said in a rare moment of candor, "Music isn't Spotiy's product. Spotify's product is Spotify!" The whole streaming thing is a big Ponzi scheme aimed at an eventual IPO - except for Apple, where it's a loss-leader aimed at selling more gizmos. And the whole thing is supported by the threat of piracy. Without the threat of piracy looming nobody would even dream of licensing music to streaming services. Ergo, streaming is nothing more than legalized piracy, supported by fear and greed. People will pay a buck for a candy bar that lasts maybe 10 minutes, rots their teeth and gives them heart disease, yet they won't pay a buck for a song that lasts forever, gives infinite enjoyment, and has no bad effects on their health. WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE? What's wrong is that they can steal the song with impunity, but if they steal the candy bar they get busted for shoplifting. Maybe not every time, but often enough to instill the perception that there are consequences to stealing candy. WHERE ARE THE CONSEQUENCES TO STEALING MUSIC? And that's what the entire streaming "industry" is based on. What we need to do is turn the whole situation on its head. Since streaming has essentially made music piracy a non-issue for most of the public, now is the time to launch another, stronger anti-piracy offenmsive and get some real laws passed with some teeth. When that is accomplished the streaming industry won't have that sword to hold over our heads and we can stick it to the streaming companies the way they've been sticking it to us and force them to move to a pay system at a price that will rteturn an incentive for people to actually PURCHASE music again because in the long run it will be a better deal than paying 50 bucks a month for streaming. Agreed! But the only way that is going to really happen, at least to me. Is if all the major labels come together and say fuck you to all the streaming hosts and pull all their content. Or all artists stop. Even then, they will just get pirated. Even with laws and enforcement in place, they will still get pirated and spread through the internet. And artists won't do that, they make art to share. And even if a lot did band together to flip the bird, lots of smaller artists would try and take advantage to get in the lime light. Labels sure as shit won't do that as they are in it for the money. Even if its not a much as they could be making if they did do that. Tidal is an attempt at this...but not working out great as it costs money to subscribe which as you and other have pointed out many times, people don't want to do anymore. Im all for more laws to get passed and make aggressive moves to catch up to where we are today in the world or sharing. Not going to be easy though as drbill has pointed out to get anything passed and in my opinion even if it something major was passed it'll be even harder to enforce. Copyright stuff is barely enforced as it is unless you take direct action yourself against whoever is infringing and almost no one can afford that. Plus we can't get sites shut down in other countries that could be large pirating distributors. Not without world wide regulations and enforcement...and come on. There is nothing out there that could do that or make it happen for the music industry. And sitting around wishing for the good ole days isn't doing anything. It'll never be like that again. Ever. One of my mentors would tell stories about the money he would make just as an in house engineer. Was insane. Wasn't even at one of the titan studios of the day. Rolling in cash though. Thats not going to happen again. Thankfully, there are lots of records to show what the product was of all that though. That is the whole point of this discussion to me and also what I think svart is trying to get at. We need to look forward not backward in terms of everything in our industry. Does it look good? Not really. But dwelling on just the bad isn't helping. You gotta look for the good and make it better.
|
|
|
Post by Blackdawg on Apr 13, 2018 12:01:55 GMT -6
True. And it won't work out for the little guy here either. Congress has changed drastically in the last 20+ years. They are bought and owned by lobbyists at this point. I see no significant future for the "music BUSINESS". Music will return to a hobbyist endeavor like it was a hundred years ago. Well, it's looking like Congress just might be changing drastically again. We shall see. The thing is, if it IS changing in an anti-corruption direction we need to seize the moment before things revert to "business as usual..." Yeah I personally feel things are headed that way. Its so hard for them to hide their evil doings these days. One can hope. This Nov will be a big big moment for us potentially. Especially with the newest bill introduced for out industry.
|
|
|
Post by nick8801 on Apr 13, 2018 13:25:15 GMT -6
Algorithms are also messing things up. If you want to get on streaming playlists you gotta sound like all the other songs on that list. Little by little music is gonna be weeded down to one song lol.
|
|
|
Post by Quint on Apr 13, 2018 14:10:00 GMT -6
I don't at all buy the argument that we should just accept "loudness" as the way things will be going forward. That's like saying that mistakes of the past should continue to be made simply because it's too "hard" to swim upstream. The ones that choose to swim against the current anyway always eventually prove everyone else wrong when they finally reach the opposite shore. To use a food analogy, the long brewing argument against preservatives, processed food, etc. has finally culminated in a cultural recognition of the ills of such things. As an example, certain fast food chains didn't start offering apples as an alternative to french fries out of sheer chance. Consumers were educated over time and eventually started demanding those options. These kind of things are always an uphill battle, but that in no way means that it's not a fight worth having. Why give up? Screw that. If there's one group best equipped to lead the charge on doing away with loudness, or rather the degradation that comes with it, it's the people who are recording and mastering music. I refuse to accept that it's a lost cause. Actually, I think things are finally poised to begin swinging the other way. I think you make my point. You're going into this with the opinion that your viewpoint is automatically "correct" in that loudness is bad and the only reason that people accept it is because it's a mistake that people perpetuate. You've assumed that your view is automatically correct, simply because it's your opinion. I disagree that an opinion can be taken as fact in any case, and that those who "reach the opposite shore" only have a new vantage point to view their opinion, but still cannot be right or wrong on a matter of taste. Instead, I say that people perpetuate it because they like it and that people's viewpoints can be neither correct, nor incorrect, just popular or unpopular. Clearly it's popular. Doesn't make it right or wrong though. On technical grounds, yes, you're right that it's just my opinion. However, when I'm listening to the radio and, for the first few seconds, I can't even tell what song I'm listening to because it just sounds like a bunch of angry bees, I think that is objectively bad by any standard. I say that (most) people perpetuate it because they don't know any better. I don't think it has so much to do with taste, or lack thereof, as it has to do with the misguided need to be louder than the last guy.
|
|