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Post by klauth on Apr 3, 2018 13:17:34 GMT -6
What are the situation you find yourself using more than 2 SDC'S for drum overheads, if ever?
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Post by jeremygillespie on Apr 3, 2018 13:26:09 GMT -6
I use ribbons or LDC mics for overheads for the most part. If I’m setting them up as a spaced pair, I will sometimes throw up a mono OH mic just as an option.
Other times I’m either doing Glyn Johns or a stereo mic over the kit.
For certain rock music where you need to have crash cymbals poking out I’ll throw up spot sdc mics on those cymbals, but I don’t normally get much of that work.
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Post by schmalzy on Apr 3, 2018 14:53:27 GMT -6
One of my favorite drum sounds I've gotten had a spaced pair that basically turned into crash cymbal spot mics and an X/Y over the center.
I had extra channels, I figured I'd do a little research. I ended up mostly using the X/Y but the spaced pair got high-passed and were great for some extra love when the crashes needed to accent and poke out extra rather than lay back.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 3, 2018 15:17:34 GMT -6
What are the situation you find yourself using more than 2 SDC'S for drum overheads, if ever? I don't use overheads, per se. And when I did still use overheads I'd never use more than two (after a couple of disastrous experiments) - the more overheads you have, the more phase cancellation and comb filtering problems you have. The practice of using overheads started back in the '50s, when the common practice was to use one overhead and one kick mic. Since the OH was covering the entire top kit by itself there were no problems. As more channels became available people started adding mics. When it was two widely spaced OH mics plus kick (early Johns method) it was still pretty much OK, but when people started adsding spot mics phase problems increased logarithically in relation to the number of mics employed. The techniquie I use employs 1 front of kit mic, 1 (FT) side of kit mic, one kick and one snare, with or without room mics. It's a trechnique developed by Willam Wittman www.weedywet.com/ derived from Glyn Johns. Here's a link to a thread on another site where William (under the screen name WeedyWet) discusses his technique. www.recpit.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=622&sid=69b3f602936434c7c42e28de15c4b3bcScroll down to the 6th post and start from there. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 3, 2018 15:24:37 GMT -6
What are the situation you find yourself using more than 2 SDC'S for drum overheads, if ever? I don't use overheads, per se. And when I did still use overheads I'd never use more than two (after a couple of disastrous experiments) - the more overheads you have, the more phase cancellation and comb filtering problems you have. The practice of using overheads started back in the '50s, when the common practice was to use one overhead and one kick mic. Since the OH was covering the entire top kit by itself there were no problems. As more channels became available people started adding mics. When it was two widely spaced OH mics plus kick (early Johns method) it was still pretty much OK, but when people started adsding spot mics phase problems increased logarithically in relation to the number of mics employed. The techniquie I use employs 1 front of kit mic, 1 (FT) side of kit mic, one kick and one snare, with or without room mics. It's a trechnique developed by Willam Wittman (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wittman&prev=search) derived from Glyn Johns. Here's a link to a thread on another site where William (under the screen name Weedy Wet) discusses his technique. www.recpit.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=622&sid=69b3f602936434c7c42e28de15c4b3bcScroll down to the 6th post and start from there. Let's hear it |
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 3, 2018 15:45:17 GMT -6
I don't use overheads, per se. And when I did still use overheads I'd never use more than two (after a couple of disastrous experiments) - the more overheads you have, the more phase cancellation and comb filtering problems you have. The practice of using overheads started back in the '50s, when the common practice was to use one overhead and one kick mic. Since the OH was covering the entire top kit by itself there were no problems. As more channels became available people started adding mics. When it was two widely spaced OH mics plus kick (early Johns method) it was still pretty much OK, but when people started adsding spot mics phase problems increased logarithically in relation to the number of mics employed. The techniquie I use employs 1 front of kit mic, 1 (FT) side of kit mic, one kick and one snare, with or without room mics. It's a trechnique developed by Willam Wittman (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wittman&prev=search) derived from Glyn Johns. Here's a link to a thread on another site where William (under the screen name Weedy Wet) discusses his technique. www.recpit.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=622&sid=69b3f602936434c7c42e28de15c4b3bcScroll down to the 6th post and start from there. Let's hear it I'd be glad to if I could find a way to post a track directly to this site. I've said that before. Or you could simply listen to some of William's stuff and get it from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Why listen to the student when you can go to the teacher? www.discogs.com/artist/170639-William-Wittman?page=1 |
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Post by wiz on Apr 3, 2018 16:42:24 GMT -6
In those photos, are to two 67s equidistant from the snare?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 3, 2018 16:42:51 GMT -6
I'd be glad to if I could find a way to post a track directly to this site. I've said that before. Or you could simply listen to some of William's stuff and get it from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Why listen to the student when you can go to the teacher? www.discogs.com/artist/170639-William-Wittman?page=1SoundCloud. |
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Post by iamasound on Apr 3, 2018 17:49:47 GMT -6
I'd be glad to if I could find a way to post a track directly to this site. I've said that before. Or you could simply listen to some of William's stuff and get it from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Why listen to the student when you can go to the teacher? www.discogs.com/artist/170639-William-Wittman?page=1You can use this clyp.it ... no account required, hassle free. |
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Post by drsax on Apr 3, 2018 17:50:16 GMT -6
I use a pair of small condensers as overheads placed in a way that favors them for crashes and ride, then an XY pair of Coles 4038’s above the kit a bit higher. Works real nice.
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Post by Ward on Apr 4, 2018 7:29:40 GMT -6
Common uses for more than a single pair of overhead microphones include, but are not limited to:
1. LCR Cardioids downwards facing,
2. Close cardioid pair in XY or ORTF and a wide pair in AB coincident
3. Front facing coincident pair of LDCs complementing the overhead pair
4. Near field and far field Room pics using any stereo technic
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 4, 2018 9:20:38 GMT -6
Yeah
If there is more than one pair up in the air for drums it’s either more of a room mic or some type of surround micing.
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Post by adamjbrass on Apr 4, 2018 9:53:08 GMT -6
Im tryin to remember the last time I used 2. It was a while ago.
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Post by svart on Apr 4, 2018 10:22:45 GMT -6
I use two for overs, another pair for rooms, mainly because I never had enough mics for more, but now that I do, I've gotten so used to using a pair, I just don't use more.
Plenty of recordings made with mics for each cymbal plus the overheads and rooms, usually automated.
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Post by schmalzy on Apr 4, 2018 11:03:04 GMT -6
What are the situation you find yourself using more than 2 SDC'S for drum overheads, if ever? The techniquie I use employs 1 front of kit mic, 1 (FT) side of kit mic, one kick and one snare, with or without room mics. It's a trechnique developed by Willam Wittman www.weedywet.com/ derived from Glyn Johns. Here's a link to a thread on another site where William (under the screen name WeedyWet) discusses his technique. www.recpit.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=622&sid=69b3f602936434c7c42e28de15c4b3bcScroll down to the 6th post and start from there. Cool technique! I could see it working well and, because of the position relative to those cymbals, I could see a figure-8 mic really minimizing the too-loud-cymbals thing a lot of people run into. Are you running your mics as close as Weedy is? That seems really close to me but of course I haven't tried it. Anything gained/lost by moving the mics a little further out? Not the same but a similar idea produced a decent result in my studio recently: I had to ditch some overheads because of some sort of faulty mic. The tribulations of working in a one-room space where I have to sit pretty close to the kit include "not clearly hearing things as I'm tracking and only finding out about problems after a take is done." After working with the drummer for a while, we finally got a great take, but the mic started acting up mid-take. Basically, I was left with one side of a spaced pair. I ended up deleting both in the end. Luckily, I had placed some close room mics (ORTF setup but with figure-8 instead of cardioid) 24-ish inches high and a couple feet out in front of the kit. It ended up being a completely useable sound. I could definitely see the setup you're describing working well. My setup that day - with the shells blocking the kit mics' view to the batter heads on everything - ended up being pretty light on attack and a little heavy on the snare bottom sound ...which makes sense considering the position. I had to use the spot mics to give me some significant transient. I imagine the Weedy setup doesn't really have that problem with their close and direct view to the batter heads. I can't wait to set up the kit on an off-day in the studio and give it a shot! |
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Post by Bender on Apr 4, 2018 11:16:48 GMT -6
Here's a video of Warren Huart micing up drums with 3 overheads at sunset, haven't tried it myself yet but essentially they're doing L C R and blending it in with 2 pairs of stereo rooms and spot mics. All nice mics of course  |
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 4, 2018 11:40:56 GMT -6
I'd be glad to if I could find a way to post a track directly to this site. I've said that before. Or you could simply listen to some of William's stuff and get it from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Why listen to the student when you can go to the teacher? www.discogs.com/artist/170639-William-Wittman?page=1SoundCloud. That's what I was told last time. I'm not in a big hurry to have Bob O's mastering job subjected to Soundclouds "processing". If I'm going to pay money for a great mastering job why would I want to subject it to Soundcloud? |
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 4, 2018 12:07:04 GMT -6
Cool technique! I could see it working well and, because of the position relative to those cymbals, I could see a figure-8 mic really minimizing the too-loud-cymbals thing a lot of people run into. Are you running your mics as close as Weedy is? That seems really close to me but of course I haven't tried it. Anything gained/lost by moving the mics a little further out? Not the same but a similar idea produced a decent result in my studio recently: I had to ditch some overheads because of some sort of faulty mic. The tribulations of working in a one-room space where I have to sit pretty close to the kit include "not clearly hearing things as I'm tracking and only finding out about problems after a take is done." After working with the drummer for a while, we finally got a great take, but the mic started acting up mid-take. Basically, I was left with one side of a spaced pair. I ended up deleting both in the end. Luckily, I had placed some close room mics (ORTF setup but with figure-8 instead of cardioid) 24-ish inches high and a couple feet out in front of the kit. It ended up being a completely useable sound. I could definitely see the setup you're describing working well. My setup that day - with the shells blocking the kit mics' view to the batter heads on everything - ended up being pretty light on attack and a little heavy on the snare bottom sound ...which makes sense considering the position. I had to use the spot mics to give me some significant transient. I imagine the Weedy setup doesn't really have that problem with their close and direct view to the batter heads. I can't wait to set up the kit on an off-day in the studio and give it a shot! Well, the photos I modeled my method on weren't those, they were ones posted on Mixerman's old site (The Womb, where there was a great and rather extensive thread on the technique), and were actually a bit clearer in my opinion, but yes, I'm shooting for the same approximate positions. It gives a surprisingly good balance between cymbals and toms. In my case I'm using Pearlman TM-1s on front and side, KM84 on snare (on the side of the drum. positioned for balance between top and bottom), and an RE-20 on kick. Sometimes a mono U87 as a room mic, as I don't currently own a pair of Coles or equivalents for room. I believe Weedy uses U67s for front and side, but I don't have any. My snare drum is an old Ludwig wood snare, if it was metal I might alter the mic position - or not, depending on tone. With correct positioning, the KM84 also does a great job of picking up just enough hi-hat, so I don't mic that. Separate hat mics have a tendency to interract in a not nice way with snare mics. Before I got the 84 I was using an old modular type AKG C451, which was OK but not as good as the Neumann. The front and side of kit mics are positioned so that the capsule is maybe 6-8 inches above the rim of the drum, maybe 18 inches away, give or take a bit. Front and side are positioned roughly equidistant frrom the snare, but it's not totally critical. I usually do the drums mono, straight up the center, but Weedy says he often/usually pans them LCR, sometimes with the front mic centered (IIRC - you'd have to ask him.) |
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Post by Bender on Apr 4, 2018 12:16:46 GMT -6
That's what I was told last time. I'm not in a big hurry to have Bob O's mastering job subjected to Soundclouds "processing". If I'm going to pay money for a great mastering job why would I want to subject it to Soundcloud? Seen this come up a few times, don't wanna be a D*%# as John makes himself the center of attention with his opinions on both this and the purple site...and I quite enjoy it from time to time  .... But that's some BULL of an excuse Mr. Johnny Oklahoma.... every time someone asks you to 🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑 you cower with excuses and never can throw something up... what artist in 2018 doesn't have any their music online .... You're on the forums so you can easily figure it out. Set up a soundcloud, or setup a dropbox account, share a link and put the naysayers to rest   Not being malicious ya'll so no hurt feelings please. I just don't understand how any artist could spend all those hours of hard work writing,performing,tracking ,mixing, etc and NOT share the final product. CRAZY Now back to your regularly scheduled overhead discussion. |
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 4, 2018 12:20:16 GMT -6
I'd be glad to if I could find a way to post a track directly to this site. I've said that before. Or you could simply listen to some of William's stuff and get it from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Why listen to the student when you can go to the teacher? www.discogs.com/artist/170639-William-Wittman?page=1You can use this clyp.it ... no account required, hassle free. Thanks, I've never hear of that before. Do they do any sort of obnoxious processing of lossy compression? I really need to get the reorganization of my website done - it's been under construction for the last couple or three months, since the old band was rendered obsolete by my having to move and my wanting to change out the music to reflect the upcoming album, which I've been dragging my feet on releasing. Need to get my butt in gear on that. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 4, 2018 12:40:27 GMT -6
That's what I was told last time. I'm not in a big hurry to have Bob O's mastering job subjected to Soundclouds "processing". If I'm going to pay money for a great mastering job why would I want to subject it to Soundcloud? Seen this come up a few times, don't wanna be a D*%# as John makes himself the center of attention with his opinions on both this and the purple site...and I quite enjoy it from time to time .... But that's some BULL of an excuse Mr. Johnny Oklahoma.... every time someone asks you to 🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑 you cower with excuses and never can throw something up... what artist in 2018 doesn't have any their music online .... You're on the forums so you can easily figure it out. Set up a soundcloud, or setup a dropbox account, share a link and put the naysayers to rest Not being malicious ya'll so no hurt feelings please. I just don't understand how any artist could spend all those hours of hard work writing,performing,tracking ,mixing, etc and NOT share the final product. CRAZY Now back to your regularly scheduled overhead discussion. Most of the stuff I do these days is covered by NDA’s and I don’t get $135K to keep my mouth shut, and that’s what gets me work that I like! So I can’t be putting stuff up ! |
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 4, 2018 12:53:58 GMT -6
That's what I was told last time. I'm not in a big hurry to have Bob O's mastering job subjected to Soundclouds "processing". If I'm going to pay money for a great mastering job why would I want to subject it to Soundcloud? Seen this come up a few times, don't wanna be a D*%# as John makes himself the center of attention with his opinions on both this and the purple site...and I quite enjoy it from time to time .... But that's some BULL of an excuse Mr. Johnny Oklahoma.... every time someone asks you to 🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑 you cower with excuses and never can throw something up... what artist in 2018 doesn't have any their music online .... You're on the forums so you can easily figure it out. Set up a soundcloud, or setup a dropbox account, share a link and put the naysayers to rest Well, as you may have noticed I'm a little old fashioned about some things. One of those things is putting my music up for free on the internet. It's not a matter of "figuring it out", it's a matter of reluctance to give it away. Hey, if you really want to hear some of it, you can BUY my first album - it's on CD Baby and distributed by Tunecore, so it should be available on a whole bunch of sites, including ITunes. Now it you could be so kind as to explain to me why the hell I should give away for free what I'm trying to sell, I'm all ears. I did occasionally post a track on The Womb, but that's gone now. I have nothing against sharing with my fellow forum users, but I'm loathe to put it up where any freeloader can get it without paying. Yeah, yeah, "exposure". People DIE of exposure. Ask any doctor. Not everything on that album is representative of what I've been talking about here though, as I started using Weedy's drum technique about halfway through it and didn't get my mic set down completely until it had been released. Also the band (and studio) on that release was a work in progress and doesn't totally represent the sound I was after. Some of the songs on that were tracked by a guy I was working with using "conventional " (That's the way it's done! I'M a professional studio engineer!) mic technique and we really had to jump through hoops come mix time to get something approaching a decent drum sound (after firing him as both tracking engineer and bassist.*) I stopped using dropbox for political reasons. Not sure if that's still valid though. If you PM me your email I'll We Transfer you a couple tracks. Not being malicious? Yeah RIGHT! And don't worry, you can't hurt my feelings. You can, however, piss me off. * - Which reminds me, SOB still has the old RAMSA WRT-820 console I loaned him - I should see about doing something about that.... |
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Post by gouge on Apr 4, 2018 14:22:39 GMT -6
Nothing more than excuses.
Posting 8 bars of drums from a song nobody is aware of is not giving your music away.
If sound cloud is making your music sound bad then you got issues that are not coming about from sound cloud.
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Post by notneeson on Apr 4, 2018 14:27:29 GMT -6
As I recall from pics he shared years ago, the basics setup on this record by my friend’s band were done with LCR OHs:
Mix might be a different story.
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Post by joseph on Apr 4, 2018 15:01:04 GMT -6
I also tried and liked the William Wittman method, since I was already doing something similar at the time. I like it but without hard panning, same with Glyn Johns which is not hard panned as devised.
Generally I prefer 2 overheads in Massenburg configuration, because you can manipulate the center image of the kit better while keeping kick relatively center and you can make small adjustments for floor tom capture or more or less cymbals. Lately 4038s but I've used KM84s and M160s too.
I always throw up a mono OH, sometimes leave it up, typically a ribbon any time I use SDCs or an 87 any time I use ribbons.
My favorite sound in general is mono overhead or FOK and stereo rooms, but often tracking space doesn't permit that and I find the 4038s have great side rejection of live amps while still giving depth of room tone.
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.... But that's some BULL of an excuse Mr. Johnny Oklahoma.... every time someone asks you to 🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑 you cower with excuses and never can throw something up... what artist in 2018 doesn't have any their music online ....
