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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 4, 2018 15:07:42 GMT -6
It turns out the front-of-kit method is right out of Muscle Shoals and not related to Glyn Johns. In the '50s a single OH near the drummer's forehead was SOP with no kick. Bleed into the vocalist's mike was the rest of the sound. The vocalist would be placed directly in front of the drum kit facing it to keep the bleed clean. Because there were no headphones, the drummer needed to play in a soft "jazz" style.
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Post by wiz on Apr 4, 2018 15:09:46 GMT -6
It turns out the front-of-kit method is right out of Muscle Shoals and not related to Glyn Johns. In the '50s a single OH near the drummer's forehead was SOP with no kick. Bleed into the vocalist's mike was the rest of the sound. The vocalist would be placed directly in front of the drum kit facing it to keep the bleed clean. Because there were no headphones, the drummer needed to play in a soft "jazz" style. I might have a play with this stuff today.. Could you run through the set up please Bob? I am a bit fuzzy Cheers Wiz
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Post by joseph on Apr 4, 2018 15:15:20 GMT -6
It turns out the front-of-kit method is right out of Muscle Shoals and not related to Glyn Johns. In the '50s a single OH near the drummer's forehead was SOP with no kick. Bleed into the vocalist's mike was the rest of the sound. The vocalist would be placed directly in front of the drum kit facing it to keep the bleed clean. Because there were no headphones, the drummer needed to play in a soft "jazz" style. Speaking of which Charlie Watts used the same Paiste 602 for almost 40 years before he finally cracked it!
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 4, 2018 15:15:41 GMT -6
I'm out of time but John's descriptions are right.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 4, 2018 16:02:20 GMT -6
Nothing more than excuses. Posting 8 bars of drums from a song nobody is aware of is not giving your music away. If sound cloud is making your music sound bad then you got issues that are not coming about from sound cloud. I have issues with lossy compression. The thing is, with other people's music you don't notice it so much, you're not used to the original - but when you're used to listening to mastering proofs that you've gone through a couple or few iterations to get just right you do notice. When we make demo MP3s I notice the difference. And I can't post just "8 bars of drums", not easily. We work analog here - recently from a digital dub to save time and wear on the tape, but still analog workflow. We'd have to set up a new mix just to get you your 8 bars of isolated drums. I could send 8 bars of the song but if I'm going to do that I'd rather that you get it in context. And I'd have to get Bob C, who handles half the engineering and all of the studio scutwork to agree to doing it. Which would be a royal pain. And it's not practical to do it without him because he literally lives in my control room.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 4, 2018 16:04:22 GMT -6
It turns out the front-of-kit method is right out of Muscle Shoals and not related to Glyn Johns. In the '50s a single OH near the drummer's forehead was SOP with no kick. Bleed into the vocalist's mike was the rest of the sound. The vocalist would be placed directly in front of the drum kit facing it to keep the bleed clean. Because there were no headphones, the drummer needed to play in a soft "jazz" style. Really? I thought Weedy said in that original thread at The Womb that he derived it from Glyn Johns.....
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Post by gouge on Apr 4, 2018 16:14:34 GMT -6
Nothing more than excuses. Posting 8 bars of drums from a song nobody is aware of is not giving your music away. If sound cloud is making your music sound bad then you got issues that are not coming about from sound cloud. I have issues with lossy compression. The thing is, with other people's music you don't notice it so much, you're not used to the original - but when you're used to listening to mastering proofs that you've gone through a couple or few iterations to get just right you do notice. When we make demo MP3s I notice the difference. And I can't post just "8 bars of drums", not easily. We work analog here - recently from a digital dub to save time and wear on the tape, but still analog workflow. We'd have to set up a new mix just to get you your 8 bars of isolated drums. I could send 8 bars of the song but if I'm going to do that I'd rather that you get it in context. And I'd have to get Bob C, who handles half the engineering and all of the studio scutwork to agree to doing it. Which would be a royal pain. And it's not practical to do it without him because he literally lives in my control room. Whatevs mate. Credibility lost. You're quick to chastise others but it turns out you aren't actually in control of your own space.
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Post by gouge on Apr 4, 2018 16:26:06 GMT -6
Nothing more than excuses. Posting 8 bars of drums from a song nobody is aware of is not giving your music away. If sound cloud is making your music sound bad then you got issues that are not coming about from sound cloud. I have issues with lossy compression. The thing is, with other people's music you don't notice it so much, you're not used to the original - but when you're used to listening to mastering proofs that you've gone through a couple or few iterations to get just right you do notice. When we make demo MP3s I notice the difference. And I can't post just "8 bars of drums", not easily. We work analog here - recently from a digital dub to save time and wear on the tape, but still analog workflow. We'd have to set up a new mix just to get you your 8 bars of isolated drums. I could send 8 bars of the song but if I'm going to do that I'd rather that you get it in context. And I'd have to get Bob C, who handles half the engineering and all of the studio scutwork to agree to doing it. Which would be a royal pain. And it's not practical to do it without him because he literally lives in my control room. how's those digital converters you commented on in a previous thread treating you in your "analogue" studio...
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Post by rowmat on Apr 4, 2018 19:33:53 GMT -6
I found myself always panning spaced overheads inwards quite a bit to avoid an unnaturally wide stereo image.
I could see the use in some situations for a central overhead with a pair of spaced overheads if the overheads were missing too much central info.
However since I got the Coles 4038's I've been using them in a Blumlein configuration bisecting the snare and kick.
This always requires a hat mic.
Also if individual cymbals need to be accented such as a ride I'll often use something like a Josephson C42 fairly close and only bring it in when needed.
However by avoiding mics like SM57 (snare) and probably 421 (toms) you'll have far less ugly off axis shite to mess up your drum tone and an easier job mixing.
Off axis high-hat spill into a SM57 snare mic is a great way to get very fugly hat-snare interaction.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 4, 2018 19:45:32 GMT -6
I have issues with lossy compression. The thing is, with other people's music you don't notice it so much, you're not used to the original - but when you're used to listening to mastering proofs that you've gone through a couple or few iterations to get just right you do notice. When we make demo MP3s I notice the difference. And I can't post just "8 bars of drums", not easily. We work analog here - recently from a digital dub to save time and wear on the tape, but still analog workflow. We'd have to set up a new mix just to get you your 8 bars of isolated drums. I could send 8 bars of the song but if I'm going to do that I'd rather that you get it in context. And I'd have to get Bob C, who handles half the engineering and all of the studio scutwork to agree to doing it. Which would be a royal pain. And it's not practical to do it without him because he literally lives in my control room. Whatevs mate. Credibility lost. You're quick to chastise others but it turns out you aren't actually in control of your own space. WTF are you talking about? You really need not to be insulting and intrusive. What business of YOURS is it how I run my house and studio? You need to STFU. It's MY BUSINESS if I want to let my music partner and friend of 35 years live in my space or not. I don't have to cater to your whims - I don't even know your name! You have ZERO CREDIBILITY if I don't know who you are! Who do you think you are? Why the hell should I have to cater to your whims? I choose to share my knowledge with you and you give me THIS? Why on earth would I want to go out of my way and inconvenience myself and my associate just because YOU want a clip? It's people like you why I DON"T bother with crap like that. I thought that the quality of people here was above that petty GS monkey sh!t. My heartfelt apologies to JK and everybody else who doesn't indulge in this BS.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 4, 2018 19:51:40 GMT -6
It turns out the front-of-kit method is right out of Muscle Shoals and not related to Glyn Johns. In the '50s a single OH near the drummer's forehead was SOP with no kick. Bleed into the vocalist's mike was the rest of the sound. The vocalist would be placed directly in front of the drum kit facing it to keep the bleed clean. Because there were no headphones, the drummer needed to play in a soft "jazz" style. Really? I thought Weedy said in that original thread at The Womb that he derived it from Glyn Johns..... My impression was that he replaced the GJ approach with the front mike in his work. The only original thing about the GJ was panning the OH and adding a floor tom mike on the opposite side. That was the first stereo approach I remember and a lot of us played with it when recording guitar bands where we had a lot of open tracks relative to other styles.
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Post by rowmat on Apr 4, 2018 19:53:17 GMT -6
I use a pair of small condensers as overheads placed in a way that favors them for crashes and ride, then an XY pair of Coles 4038’s above the kit a bit higher. Works real nice. Yeah that's where I'm at these days. The XY Coles (Blumlein) keep things solid and real. I'll sometimes use SDC's as spot cymbal mics (typically on the ride on quiet material) if needed and phase align them and then pan them to match the OH image. But usually you only need just a little of the spot mics for some clarity.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 4, 2018 20:51:43 GMT -6
However by avoiding mics like SM57 (snare) and probably 421 (toms) you'll have far less ugly off axis shite to mess up your drum tone and an easier job mixing.
Off axis high-hat spill into a SM57 snare mic is a great way to get very fugly hat-snare interaction.
Absolutely. I relagated those mics to my live punk rock show box several years ago. And as of two years ago I do very few of those shows... I'm actually convinced that the popularity of those mics is responsible for the sales of a lot of gratuitous room "treatment" by insulation hucksters. I select my spaces for natural acoustics BEFORE I rent and tend to rely on diffusion over absorption. But then I have a preference for live-ish rooms. I don't have the funds to cover a real build-out in a rental space, so I have to be careful going in. I'm actually somewhat aghast at the number of people for whom their studio space seems to be an afterthought when moving into a new location. Good mics and decent natural acoustics will take you a long way.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 4, 2018 20:54:41 GMT -6
Really? I thought Weedy said in that original thread at The Womb that he derived it from Glyn Johns..... My impression was that he replaced the GJ approach with the front mike in his work. The only original thing about the GJ was panning the OH and adding a floor tom mike on the opposite side. That was the first stereo approach I remember and a lot of us played with it when recording guitar bands where we had a lot of open tracks relative to other styles. I wish that the original thread was still available for reference.
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Post by jeromemason on Apr 4, 2018 20:56:45 GMT -6
One of my favorite producers I mix for always gives me a pair of normal OH's and then he places right next to them a pair of Royer's, same height/angle/pitch everything and I LOVE that sound. It actually makes my job faster because I can just mute out the Royers for the choruses and condensers (bright's) for the verses or turns. Don't really use them together, although I have, just depends on the song. A lot of guys in town use either a pair of Royers like that or the Stereo Royer right between the brights. The SF24-V sounds absolutely amazing, you could use that one mic right over the kit and it'd sound killer, I do that sometimes for any of the gimmicky stuff they request. To me, that SF24-V from Royer is easily one of the best ribbons I've ever heard.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 4, 2018 21:16:24 GMT -6
Ok - let’s keep it on target and talk about the subject at hand. You can schedule your own personal circle jerk for personal attacks.
I’m actually mixing some tracks that had a “ride” mic along with OH. My immediate reaction was “great more phasey cymbal noise”. But I actually found it really useful in a track where the ride and Bell were pretty prominent. Strangely, the OHs didn’t seem to have a ton of cymbal...just something I haven’t run into. It’s probably more to do with the style I Mix most often, but I rarely use much if any room, mono room, hall, crouch, saddle - you name it. I’m these dense (less creative) mixes, there’s just not a lot of room for - well - room.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Apr 4, 2018 21:22:51 GMT -6
One of my favorite producers I mix for always gives me a pair of normal OH's and then he places right next to them a pair of Royer's, same height/angle/pitch everything and I LOVE that sound. It actually makes my job faster because I can just mute out the Royers for the choruses and condensers (bright's) for the verses or turns. Don't really use them together, although I have, just depends on the song. A lot of guys in town use either a pair of Royers like that or the Stereo Royer right between the brights. The SF24-V sounds absolutely amazing, you could use that one mic right over the kit and it'd sound killer, I do that sometimes for any of the gimmicky stuff they request. To me, that SF24-V from Royer is easily one of the best ribbons I've ever heard. I just did a tracking session with the SF-12 for the first time as OH. Fell in love with it and am planning on picking one up soon. Can't even imagine how fantastic the tube version must sound.
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Post by rowmat on Apr 4, 2018 21:25:49 GMT -6
A spot mic on the ride is not common but can make a big difference compared to trying to capture it with the OH's. Being able to clearly hear a subtly hit ride cymbal in a mix can add a sense of hi-fi to the drums. Ok - let’s keep it on target and talk about the subject at hand. You can schedule your own personal circle jerk for personal attacks. I’m actually mixing some tracks that had a “ride” mic along with OH. My immediate reaction was “great more phasey cymbal noise”. But I actually found it really useful in a track where the ride and Bell were pretty prominent. Strangely, the OHs didn’t seem to have a ton of cymbal...just something I haven’t run into. It’s probably more to do with the style I Mix most often, but I rarely use much if any room, mono room, hall, crouch, saddle - you name it. I’m these dense (less creative) mixes, there’s just not a lot of room for - well - room.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 4, 2018 21:30:31 GMT -6
One of my favorite producers I mix for always gives me a pair of normal OH's and then he places right next to them a pair of Royer's, same height/angle/pitch everything and I LOVE that sound. It actually makes my job faster because I can just mute out the Royers for the choruses and condensers (bright's) for the verses or turns. Don't really use them together, although I have, just depends on the song. A lot of guys in town use either a pair of Royers like that or the Stereo Royer right between the brights. The SF24-V sounds absolutely amazing, you could use that one mic right over the kit and it'd sound killer, I do that sometimes for any of the gimmicky stuff they request. To me, that SF24-V from Royer is easily one of the best ribbons I've ever heard. I just did a tracking session with the SF-12 for the first time as OH. Fell in love with it and am planning on picking one up soon. Can't even imagine how fantastic the tube version must sound. I really don’t want to hear a stereo ribbon...because I know I’d want it...good thing I don’t track drums.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Apr 4, 2018 21:37:46 GMT -6
I just did a tracking session with the SF-12 for the first time as OH. Fell in love with it and am planning on picking one up soon. Can't even imagine how fantastic the tube version must sound. I really don’t want to hear a stereo ribbon...because I know I’d want it...good thing I don’t track drums. I was a LDC OH guy for a long time, moved onto the LDC Glyn Johns thing, and then read a bunch of stuff Ryan Freeland posted about using 122's as OH. I LOVE his recordings, so the first chance I got to try the Royer thing on OH's I jumped at it. It was fantastic. - I won't dismiss the fact that 90% of the records he tracks have Jay Bellerose on drums...
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Post by Tbone81 on Apr 4, 2018 22:09:44 GMT -6
I just did a tracking session with the SF-12 for the first time as OH. Fell in love with it and am planning on picking one up soon. Can't even imagine how fantastic the tube version must sound. I really don’t want to hear a stereo ribbon...because I know I’d want it...good thing I don’t track drums. Then don't ever listen to a royer sf12 on OH, because your wallet will instantly loose $2500
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 5, 2018 1:06:51 GMT -6
However by avoiding mics like SM57 (snare) and probably 421 (toms) you'll have far less ugly off axis shite to mess up your drum tone and an easier job mixing.
Off axis high-hat spill into a SM57 snare mic is a great way to get very fugly hat-snare interaction.
Absolutely. I relagated those mics to my live punk rock show box several years ago. And as of two years ago I do very few of those shows... I'm actually convinced that the popularity of those mics is responsible for the sales of a lot of gratuitous room "treatment" by insulation hucksters. I select my spaces for natural acoustics BEFORE I rent and tend to rely on diffusion over absorption. But then I have a preference for live-ish rooms. I don't have the funds to cover a real build-out in a rental space, so I have to be careful going in. I'm actually somewhat aghast at the number of people for whom their studio space seems to be an afterthought when moving into a new location. Good mics and decent natural acoustics will take you a long way. Ha ! Well I’ll admit sell 57’s was very profitable for both the dealer and the sales person, U mean the Sure dealer award was called the Full Compass Award! A lot of close micing drums was an out growth of 3 major things. 1 the mixing engineer having nothing to do with mixing so you had to have those spot mics to push something in the mix. 2 The hair band Michael Wagner drum sound is all about close micing a kit to death and everybody wanted that big MTV sound in the 80’s! 3 ADATs and Mackie 8 bus set ups Tracks and inputs were easy and cheap, good rooms good drummers and patience were not so easy to come by! When I first started working as a budget rescue projects mixer a guy asked me what was my used piece of gear I replied “ the mute button, It’s as close as I have to a talent switch and a debug your session button”. It always seamed that every body thought they were Peter Gabriel by using a 101 tracks, and using every plugin they had on every track would magically make it sound like a record! Nobody understood the magic was a good sounding room and talent, Most thought the magic of a studio was 2 rooms even if they were closets and wood every where “cause that’s what you see in all the pictures of the great studios in Mix Magazine “ hey why read when you can just build it from the pictures like an IKEA bookcase? So thanking freaking god for those acoustic hucksters! I’ll admit my last place had zero treat but all interior walls were 2 layers of drywall with fiberglass insulation and no parallel walls plus 12 ft ceilings ! Ask BradD you walked in and thought , Damn this room doesn’t suck at all !
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Post by EmRR on Apr 5, 2018 6:57:11 GMT -6
For a pretty long time I've had a MS M160/M130 OH with a stereo Samar 10 feet-ish out in front. Many times a Shure 300 behind the drummer, smashed pretty flat in a BA-78A. A couple of loud garage bands with a lot of up/down dynamics have had the stereo Samar into dbx 902's in high freq limit mode to semi-erase the cymbal smashing, then deep into an RCA/NBC tube AGC pair, with that the majority of the mixed sound. I've done several things recently with mono MK-47 clone OH and MS Sennheiser MKH out front.
If I can ever sort through it, I have tracks from a large room session with Samar and Royer stereo room stacked in coherence, and an AEA 84(?) for comparison, but they were never intended to all be on at once.
If an arrangement specifically calls for it, cymbal spots with only a room mic can work great, but usually when I encounter stereo OH with spots in mixing it feels like neither is really right, that it's more of an attempt at coverage than a success, and they compete/cancel.
To the OP?, pretty much never that I put up more than a pair in OH position.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 5, 2018 7:48:55 GMT -6
It's not a matter of "figuring it out", it's a matter of reluctance to give it away. Hey, if you really want to hear some of it, you can BUY my first album - it's on CD Baby and distributed by Tunecore, so it should be available on a whole bunch of sites, including ITunes. Not everything on that album is representative of what I've been talking about here though, as I started using Weedy's drum technique about halfway through it and didn't get my mic set down completely until it had been released. Also the band (and studio) on that release was a work in progress and doesn't totally represent the sound I was after. Some of the songs on that were tracked by a guy I was working with using "conventional " (That's the way it's done! I'M a professional studio engineer!) mic technique and we really had to jump through hoops come mix time to get something approaching a decent drum sound (after firing him as both tracking engineer and bassist.*) Well, it looks like you're first album is on your YouTube channel (provided by Tunecore). Which track would you recommend checking out? www.youtube.com/channel/UCvx0_cEnP0FfICovkpfSgfA/videos?disable_polymer=1
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 5, 2018 11:44:41 GMT -6
People often confuse drum damping and miking for live sound with what has been used for recording.
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