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Post by popmann on Feb 15, 2018 19:03:03 GMT -6
This is for the songwriter/self recording artists....but, I was wondering how many of you have an idea, start to record it--and THAT project is typically producing the final mix?
Which could also be phrased "do you make demos"?
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Post by wiz on Feb 15, 2018 19:08:54 GMT -6
Not really
But I do re record till it’s right.
Most of the time it’s because the arrangement evolves
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by noah shain on Feb 15, 2018 21:33:14 GMT -6
Sometimes the first days work acts as a demo but 100% of the time that I’ve finished the song myself the “demo” is the foundation of the final track.
If it ends up being just a writing session and I dont do the production then it’s just a demo.
So...I do make demos but I never intend for them to be demos.
I would guess the Nashville guys make more demos than any other people on the planet. I have friends in Nashville who’s entire livelihood is demos.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 15, 2018 21:46:23 GMT -6
Things have changed dramatically. Up until about 5 years ago, it was commonplace to have a demo budget of around $800/song. Crazy. For full-band demos. Anyway, these days, I write and I’ll pick Songs I want to demo...otherwise they’ll never get heard. So I usually start with an acoustic track and then build from there. If I was doing a big enough record and going in with a live band, I might do a small reference demo...but I go back and forth with that because I don’t want to limit the musicians - or put them in a headspace when they might have done something totally different.
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Post by Vincent R. on Feb 15, 2018 21:55:38 GMT -6
I usually do a quick scratch vocal with me playing piano and send it to whomever is arranging the song. From there we work on the final product. When I’m lucky we can take some of the VIs and replace them as we go. Most of the time it’s just VIs, real guitars, and a real solo instrument or two. Either way, after that scratch we begin working of the final project, or the scratch just sits in my library waiting for me to give it a rewrite or only to be heard by a select few.
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Post by drbill on Feb 15, 2018 22:05:57 GMT -6
It's a rare day when I do a "demo" in the traditional sense. I start, and things morph until I'm finished and it gets mixed - as a master. If it ends up junk, then I discontinue working on it, but there's never a "demo" ala the 1990's.
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Post by chessparov on Feb 15, 2018 23:03:01 GMT -6
Just getting started... Recording my acapella vocal first, then will take it to one (of several) of recording buddies to add any other instrument(s) to. Nowhere near as technically adept as Vincent is (who has a fantastic voice!), but also am extremely accurate "pitchwise", so they can base an arrangement on it. There is a terrific local "Laguna Beach" singer/songwriter (Jason Feddy), who effectively mentored me, partly in the value of being open to singing in other keys (on cover songs)-to improve song "interpretation", which also influences the arrangement.
Also am studying producer/arrangers like Philly Soul greats Thom Bell & Gamble/Huff where they'd build the arrangements to better frame the singer(s), to understand potential song arrangements. That way I can help out more.
Chris
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Post by Vincent R. on Feb 16, 2018 8:19:31 GMT -6
This actually sounds like a good topic for one of my videos. :-D
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Post by john on Feb 16, 2018 10:22:02 GMT -6
I always do a demo. helps ease the tension but often some or most elements from the demo make it to what I consider the final version. lately I record my own 'click' track of just snapping my finger and humming the arrangement. a loose and fun way of getting the ball rolling.
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Post by mjheck on Feb 16, 2018 10:34:17 GMT -6
I think there is a philosophy thought experiment that goes something like this: "a ship leaves London loaded with ship building supplies. En route, the crew gradually makes modifications to the ship and throws the old pieces over board. By the time they reach New York, every piece of the ship has been replaced. The question is - can this still be considered the same ship, or is it a new ship?"
My recordings are kind of like this : ).
Since the Logic file will contain markers, tempo information, lyrics, etc. I will often add, mute, re-record, etc. as I work through arrangement ideas. I may end up not using the originally recorded components at all. Or I mute everything and go back to the original guitar track, if that is what communicates most effectively.
MJH
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Post by forgotteng on Feb 16, 2018 10:38:07 GMT -6
Interesting question. It seems like the industry and technology has changed so much that the definition of a demo has changed. I think it also depends on your market. If you are in a heavily publishing oriented market that is one kind of demo. I am not, so what we would call demo's used to be primarily for getting a record deal. These days that translates into getting gigs and many people morphed into referring to them as EP's. Of course this may not be the line of topic you had intended but it is just my thoughts and a smaller market definition.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 16, 2018 11:48:09 GMT -6
Things have changed dramatically. Up until about 5 years ago, it was commonplace to have a demo budget of around $800/song. Crazy. For full-band demos. Anyway, these days, I write and I’ll pick Songs I want to demo...otherwise they’ll never get heard. So I usually start with an acoustic track and then build from there. If I was doing a big enough record and going in with a live band, I might do a small reference demo...but I go back and forth with that because I don’t want to limit the musicians - or put them in a headspace when they might have done something totally different. How much are you paying musicians for their parts today? And how much of the work are you doing yourself-vocals, Superior Drummer, Keyboard beds using VST's etc, etc.? An $800.00/song budget for a demo must have been sweet for everybody. |
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Post by swurveman on Feb 16, 2018 12:01:51 GMT -6
Interesting question. It seems like the industry and technology has changed so much that the definition of a demo has changed. I think it also depends on your market. If you are in a heavily publishing oriented market that is one kind of demo. I am not, so what we would call demo's used to be primarily for getting a record deal. These days that translates into getting gigs and many people morphed into referring to them as EP's. Of course this may not be the line of topic you had intended but it is just my thoughts and a smaller market definition. I would add that the small market "demo/EP" should go immediately to iTunes and other revenue generating sources. However, most bands just give it away on Facebook, Reverb, Soundcloud etc. and then are surprised/disappointed that they don't make any money. In my small market, bands are being asked to pay to play by guaranteeing tickets, or are playing for transportation (gas/tolls) amounts. It is amazing to me how much passion these bands have doing something that nets them no income and takes up a lot of their time. |
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Post by popmann on Feb 16, 2018 12:12:50 GMT -6
To be clear, I'm not talking about the functional "demonstration for someone else". MJheck is what I'm talking about--when you have an idea for song....you DO record it, right? Does that project become what you publish to the world? I know that TRACK doesn't....thankfully. But, I get the feeling that the workflow is more like MJHeck describes now....you might start writing with a guitar riff....ad drum loop....basically in a DAW....AND....that DAW project file ends up producing the final version. I prefer the delineation. If I write a song I WILL demo it quickly. Maybe it sucks. Maybe the lyrics don't come....maybe....lots of maybes, but an actual recording is an exponential time commitment that I don't do because I had a song idea.....and is much cleaner/easier to start over and create a linear performance/recording. I blurred that line with this project I'm on now because of some odd circumstances....figured I'd see how that was easier now....it's not. I mean I guess it's "easier"--but, end of the day, I replayed 90% of everything....and I'm not convinced I couldn't have done it faster by taking the drum audio out....with it's tempo map....new project--GO. I used to be "all writing is done sitting at piano" (or with acoustic)....and I made no demos even though I had a home studio....until I got a bunch of tunes written--then I'd put a mic up and record them straight through so I could listen back and see which ones I wanted to record for the album. I philosophically felt like whatever I forgot was better off forgotten.  Just curious to see if my perception is correct. |
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Post by christopher on Feb 16, 2018 12:24:40 GMT -6
It took me way too long and so many failures to understand that demos are VERY important, and really all I record are demos, lol. Not because the quality is not there, or the tone, or the performance. Its because you/me/the artist can't know what a song feels like until its recorded and a demo mix is done. Then you realize all the little things that need to be addressed, what works what doesn't. And while we think its just re-track this and that and we will be good, really the main issue is tempo/emotion and they are completely related. I refer to classical music as proof. A few bpm faster or slower you can find the magic or lose it completely. DAW varispeed unfortunately sounds terrible, but its very useful to play with to find out where the demo should be and where it should go. And when the musicians are in the right tempo, they play better with feeling and emotion. If the song is new, and they are still learning it while recording, its very hard to find the magic. IME anyway..  |
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Post by swurveman on Feb 16, 2018 13:57:19 GMT -6
This is for the songwriter/self recording artists....but, I was wondering how many of you have an idea, start to record it--and THAT project is typically producing the final mix? Which could also be phrased "do you make demos"? Yes, I do. I'll typically start with a beat from a drum vst for the tempo and sing a melody, using gibberish which sometimes produce a word or phrase that begets an idea for the content of the lyric. I've found that my melodies are more dynamic if I don't have any chord structure, but I typically use a verse - chorus song structure. I'll then write a guitar, bass, keyboard, drum arrangement around that. As the song and arrangement evolves, I either punch in or redo entire sections of the song depending if it sounds good enough just punching in. Once I'm done, I'll mix the song and master it. In the future, I'm going to start my demo by trying to write complex instrumental arrangements and then add the vocal later. I'm tired of hearing simple arrangements. So, I'm not going to write them either. Once I'm done, I'm going to use it like a "demo"- as a template that I'll give to musicians much better than me. I'll ask them to improve their part if they can. I'll probably still do the mixing, but not sure yet. I'm gonna farm out the mastering. |
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Post by popmann on Feb 16, 2018 21:05:58 GMT -6
I was thinking about this in part because technology has done very little in recent memory to increase the quality of audio recording/mixing. HD was basically it..circa late 90s....which isn't to say their haven't been some nice and even innovative stuff made, but it generally does less to make the end result better as to get there quicker or with less knowledge.
....meanwhile, this tune I wrote this week, I had the Logic Drummer play "my" SD3 kit following my human (linear) tempo take on acoustic, which was muted immediately after....used the B5 for a little high pad(quicker than mic'ing the beast, right?)....Ivory American D for the main chords....then basically sang a track of non sense to document the melody, and dropped the mic in front of the speaker cab and did a guitar track or two...press into lookahead limiter....done. radio ready (sans vocal)....basically, the day after I wrote it. There WAS a first project with the A+B section....that got chucked when I wrote the C section, making the song cycle complete. And really, a good deal of my effort was around the silliness of using two computers because I need a new one....I could churn this stuff out. And the quality of this demo is better than previous--so it didn't make it faster, it made fast BETTER....demos are ALWAYS "fast" for me--that's the point, not to get hung up on the minutia of tone and arrangements. Get the idea out--an start massaging lyrics to fit....
I like to focus my attention on challenges, if you haven't figured that by now....I've sort of accomplished what I want sonically, so--can I get happy with digital plug ins rather than outboard? Check. How about getting happy with the results of moving target of built in plug ins? Check. So, now--maybe speed is the next frontier. The results of this "first tune written since Logic update" test AND the Drummer scripting being at 100%....was promising....
Anyone know of a good algorithmic string arranger? I've got a few I've been putting off because there's NO part of the process I hate more than arranging strings for VIs. Well--drum programming....but, I just don't DO that....
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 16, 2018 23:01:52 GMT -6
I write with a guitar, pen and paper. I only turn on my iPhone that's next to me when there's some chords or a melody that needs to be captured.
If I bother to open up Logic, I plan to make the track a record. I begin with a simple shaker or a simple drum pattern, track an acoustic to that, and then a vocal. Typically I keep those tracks. I've never actually been able to get a better vocal than my first vocal session, ever, though I've tried. So I now try to be sure I track them well. I used to be less careful about levels and mic positions, thinking it was just a first draft.
So, I don't do demos, but.. as a songwriter, another artist could consider my songs on my albums a demo. If I had a publishing deal, I guess I would make demos again. I used to make demos for presentation of radio and TV commercials I wrote and produced in the late 80's. Typically, there was a $750 demo fee then to cover costs, as I would pay AFTRA members and musicians a demo fee. The demo was done so clients could choose from a few different writer/producers.
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Post by chessparov on Feb 16, 2018 23:23:52 GMT -6
Thanks Vincent, I look forward to whenever you may cover that topic of "vocals first". As some of you may know... S&G's "Sounds of Silence" had the electric instruments added later, which helped it add it up to being a hit. On "These Boots Are Made for Walkin', the Carol Kaye bass line was the
"secret sauce" :-) My point is that having a musical rough draft AKA "demo", helps allow other participants to expand/enhance the song-Improving the musical conversation.
This may be "nothing new", for an (unusually sophisticated) forum like this, but important for me to keep in mind.
BTW I really do enjoy Pete Townshend's amazing "home" demos of various classic Who songs-sometimes more than the "hit versions"!
Chris
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Post by popmann on Feb 17, 2018 0:17:19 GMT -6
If you want to know what my "demos" sound like....or just want to hear the Logic Drummer playing SD3--something I've written a lot about, but have been dragging ass with the lyrics for the recordings I used the Javascripting for.... soundcloud.com/langsongs/saynothing-dayonedemoI spared you the caterwauling the melody in nonsense lyric(though the guitar at the end cops some of it)....because I run THIS down to write lyrics to....and a second pass with that as melody documentation--suffice to say there is actually a song that goes to this, but I ain't sharing THAT yet....neat as this is for a day one demo, it will likely be back to square one when (and if) I go to make it a record. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 17, 2018 8:57:24 GMT -6
Thanks for posting that Popman. I dig the bass playing. Which bass guitar did you use, signal chain?
If I ever bother to learn my way around Logic's Drummer, can I use my SD2 drums the same way you used SD3? The SD drums sound pretty natural.
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Post by popmann on Feb 17, 2018 10:03:35 GMT -6
Thanks for posting that Popman. I dig the bass playing. Which bass guitar did you use, signal chain? If I ever bother to learn my way around Logic's Drummer, can I use my SD2 drums the same way you used SD3? The SD drums sound pretty natural. It's my old Carvin fretless V....I recently put Labella flexible flats--jury is out whether they stay, but I am bringing it out of retirement. Thus use on a demo, where some trainwrecks were ok.... I used to ONLY play fretless bass--Nashville P bass playing made me lazy. The "chain" is funny....it's plugged into the idiot jack on the front of the $50 Tascam. That's the beauty of active basses....there's a touch of Logic EQ and compressor I added t the last minute to get it right where I wanted it. Few DB of gain reduction...little HPF and scooping some 160hz....nothing particularly "sculpting". The answer to the Logic Drummer question has been talked about exhaustively here....I've posts the way anyone can do it while using the DKD (logic) high hat. I had to write custom Javascript to remap high hat articulations in real time. So, you can use SD2 for every sound BUT the high hat fairly easily. But, my recommendation for the easiest way to get the best sound....is to use the Producer Kits in DKD (Vitnage 60s is all I use)--mute the room mics, and then going into the third party and ONLY load/use the room mics. But, also note--this isn't clicked. The "logic drummer" is following ME and my bass (and an acoustic tempo take you don't hear here)....so, used as some way to just pick drum sounds to play TO....YMMV. |
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Post by mjheck on Feb 17, 2018 10:07:43 GMT -6
The twin goals of "speed" and "ease," with a minimum baseline of "quality" is a cool way to look at this issue.
I find I am motivated by opposing poles: one is to find "the" signal chain that, once and for all, works for almost everything. Things like file templates, saved channel strip settings and the ability to recall complete digital recording chains via UAD console sit in this camp. The other is a joy from experimentation that has traditionally come from grabbing a new instrument or compressor, rewiring the patch bay or trying an unexpected mic choice or position.
What is different for me now rather than ten years ago is I can turn on one power strip, launch a constantly refined template from Logic and get finished sounds immediately. While clearly the result of a lot of trial and error, the impetus is what Martin referred to, which is the first takes often have something that is difficult to better, so I might as well get a quality capture just in case. The ability to save "alternatives" in Logic is also a nice addition that allows one to sort of start fresh without losing some of the tedious stuff like structure and instrument selection.
Recording with a heavy reliance on 84's is somewhat a result of this process - I keep a pair on a stereo bar and stand that can be pressed into service as quickly as hitting the phantom power. The Silver Bullet "Mix" and "Mic" settings are another "flip the switch" option I didn't have a couple of years ago. The sonic signature of the Zulu is so pleasing it just works - again, just a couple of small clicks to move from tracking to mixing and I'm good to go.
I timed it the other day (because, you know, OCD is a thing) an it took four minutes from the moment I walked into the studio until I was ready to track. Obviously, when I work with other artists its more complicated. I put up the nice tube mics and have to take some additional room treatment measures (I can't very well tell them "face this corner and don't move," like I do when I record myself).
That is not to say that all writing gets done this way. I still have tons of voice memos on the iPhone, and most lyrics seem to come in the dead of night and are typed into notes for some morning deciphering. However, I have had several instances where I went into the studio update software and came out with a new song - it is just that accessible.
MJH
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Post by swurveman on Feb 17, 2018 10:47:28 GMT -6
I was thinking about this in part because technology has done very little in recent memory to increase the quality of audio recording/mixing. HD was basically it..circa late 90s....which isn't to say their haven't been some nice and even innovative stuff made, but it generally does less to make the end result better as to get there quicker or with less knowledge. I would say internet access to the world's best musicians can make your demo better. Today, you can have Kenny Aronoff play drums, Troye Kinette play keyboards and other great musicians play on your demo. You may have to wait awhile, but if they have the time lots of them have their own setups and it's easy to get them the backing tracks. |
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Post by popmann on Feb 17, 2018 11:48:33 GMT -6
I would say that too....as I've been both offering and using remote session services for 15 years. That's been around longer still.
To be clear, the above is not something I share. I did that for the purpose of this discussion....that this is a demo for me. This will not get "worked on" until it's a real boy. I use it to write lyrics....when those are done, I'll cut a vocal with them and reprint. Done with demo. If I like the song enough to actually record a version to share....it will start over. Nothing there is saved. I actually won't even back those tracks up like I do for recordings. that's a quick, dirty, sloppy song idea demo--all that's useful is the actual mix. It gets put in with my song demos that get listened to when it comes time to make a record.
It seems like most people now are effectively taking the above (only done to a click/loop for tempo)....and massaging it....replacing this....recutting that....mix automation....plug ins....change patches....change snare drum sounds....and trying to go from THAT to finish recording. And I'm not here to say that's wrong--I'm here to say it's not how I work. I've tried and it just doesn't end up where I want it....and the process is.....not remotely fun.
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