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Post by chessparov on Feb 17, 2018 14:10:43 GMT -6
Excellent Popmann! Chris
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Post by popmann on Feb 17, 2018 14:24:15 GMT -6
Thx. I'm trying to give some perspective to the discussion of what I mean by a song idea demo.
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Post by Guitar on Feb 17, 2018 17:29:24 GMT -6
Everything I do is a demo. All of my ideas get documented, I don't throw anything away. Less common is the iPhone demo (there are a few of those, of course.)
Some of them get far enough to show to other people, some of them stop short.
Recording, and songwriting, are often part of the same process for me. I learned "automatic writing" in college and I guess it got kind of stuck in my method. A lot of my lyrics are written live to the mic as well. As well as arrangements, and various instrumental bits.
Obviously this changes when a band is introduced, i.e., other people. It's time to change the arrangement, and write new parts.
And obviously if I'm recording someone else's music it's never a demo, always some sort of attempt at a record or EP or whatever.
But in my spare time, I'm constantly writing/demoing songs on my best equipment with my best methods.
I guess I consider myself a songwriter and musician above and beyond any other thing so it's all intertwined for me. It's my reason for living however you say that in French.
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Post by chessparov on Feb 17, 2018 19:28:01 GMT -6
Yes, it's the "raisin entree" for living. Chris
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 17, 2018 21:59:00 GMT -6
I'm using less and less and less plug-ins lately, I actually forget what I have sometimes. A couple of nice reverbs and compressors, and that's about all I really need, other than an occasional guitar effects and Bass Rider.
None of the "mojo" type plugs claiming Neve, or API, or REDD sounds really sound right to me. The little Stam SA73 sounds like it came from a good mid-level studio, so I just track through that and don't add too much. Two reverbs on a bus, the 7th Heaven, Relab XL. My 2 bus does get a lot of action though.. I use the UAD ATR-140 on every mix, Grey and Red from the Slate VBC often, the Waves L2 or L3 last, and occasionally a pinch of EQ in the middle. A few compressors doing a little seems better than one doing it all like the FG-X is supposed to.
I almost wish I was asked to do demos, it would be quick and dirty, stereo drum pattern, two guitars and a bass, vocal, and maybe some keys, done. I'd mix as I tracked. Come to think of it, I don't do much more than that anyway, but I do lots of automation and careful drum and guitar editing for nuance. On a demo, I'd keep it straightforward and compress more rather than automate levels of every little thing.
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Post by M57 on Feb 18, 2018 5:35:13 GMT -6
"Demo" is somewhat of a misnomer in my book, but I suppose that's what most of you would call what I do. If anything, it's more vanity recording than demo. I'm not looking to have someone else record it and I doubt that I'll ever want to put in the energy to marketing it ..or myself for that matter. It's simply art for art's sake. I create it because I have to, and everything is the final product.
I don't think my process is unlike many of yours. I write the song, or the bones of the song away from the studio with an instrument. I like the 'idea' of sketching, but like others here I've learned that first performances can be special. The reality is that I do go back anD re-record some things after having lived with them for a while, but nevertheless, unless it's a VI I pretty much always take care to record as if I'm creating the final product.
As I go, I make arranging decisions. I usually know what the form will be at the outset, but almost never have it all arranged (instrumentation-wise) in my head before I start. I prefer to use a simple Logic drummer or a shaker as a click with the idea that I'll get a pro drummer to record it either in my studio or remotely. I've been having great luck with the latter ..if only because I'm so happy with his work, but optimally I'd like to bring drummers into my studio and record them. Problem is ..the only time that ever worked out in the past is when the drummer was also an engineer (Jcoutu). I'm excited about trying out Logic's new 'memo' feature - we'll see if that's a game-changer or not.
Same applies to other instruments. Fortunately, I'm not displeased with my singing and ability to play a number of instruments so I usually don't bring many people in on my projects. I have mixed feelings about that, I feel like my music often needs an injection of diversity, but I just don't know that many musicians in my area or even on-line. I'd love to find a really good electric guitarist - someone who really knows thier chord scales ..arrgh! I just haven't put any work into finding one. But that's my problem. I don't get out - I come home from work and cloister myself in the studio.. but I digress.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2018 8:04:35 GMT -6
#releasethedemo
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Post by Guitar on Feb 18, 2018 8:39:08 GMT -6
Yeah, I think for me maybe "Writing in the studio" is a better term than "Demo."
A lot of my favorite bands/albums work or happen the same way.
I am more often alone as well. But I try really hard to make music that doesn't sound "lonely" if that makes any sense. Some of my past mistakes I've seen friends making as well is doing something that sounds so obviously like "a guy by himself in a room." I've come to really loathe that sort of vibe, since I got stuck there for too long in my development.
Maybe there is one distinction when I start working and immediately I know, "This is not serious." It's either testing some new equipment, throwing down a half-formed idea that seems promising but not quite full, or some jokey-ass lyric that's just too funny to throw away even though it's not serious. Once in a while, you can get some accidental jems this way, but more often than not, yeah, that's probably best regarded as a "Demo."
It's also hard to fully-finish many tracks all by one's lonesome. So a lot of stuff is existent as "Work half finished," but I still wouldn't call that a demo. In the instance that the performances and sounds are just too far off center, then yeah, you truly do have a demo at that point. I've got a number of these piling up the past 3 years or so that I would love to do with a band of some sort. Because the songs themselves are strong enough. You could probably call this "Pre-production." The hard part will be finding the band...
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 18, 2018 10:05:22 GMT -6
Part of this discussion is about confidence. My tracks could be called demos, except I'm confident the writing is strong enough, that even with limited production, (one man in an apartment with an Apollo, and some friends pitching in on some tracks), I feel the song's message gets through, so that makes them productions.
I like how Wiz's tracks walk that line perfectly. He never goes overboard with production, but manages to get it all done in a clear and well thought out way.
* I just realized I don't make what could traditionally be called demos, but I often send a track with a shaker, acoustic guitar and vocal to friends to see what they think, and maybe those could be called demos. I usually keep those tracks for finishing, so maybe they're "pre-production", or maybe they're just songs I sent to friends to get feedback from.
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Post by Guitar on Feb 18, 2018 13:01:55 GMT -6
That's a good point about confidence.
I had a band pay me for 5-6 songs one time, I was thinking about it as an EP.
But the singer was so displeased with his performances they released it and called it a "demo."
I guess I was a little miffed at the time but it sort of makes sense now.
That guy just had no confidence at all. To the point that his pitch was all over the place when the mic was pointed at him. Just scared shitless.
I should have autotuned in retrospect. Maybe that would have helped a tiny bit.
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Post by christopher on Feb 18, 2018 13:11:31 GMT -6
I find the first take usually is perfect except the musicians can't play it right. It is confidence I think big time. To get that "first take feel" on a redo, I feel like they have to be on total autopilot for the notes and listening along while performing- like an audience member who is hearing the song on some trancendent level.. then those inflections and micro emphasis on beats that are so cool start coming out. It can require taking a break, or more practice, re-record a few weeks later. Clearing the mind, etc. Recordings that have that flow and vibe just feel better and mix easier, to me anyway..
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 18, 2018 14:03:07 GMT -6
It's usually takes 1 or 2, occasionally 3 for me. Otherwise I'm comping something together that's still incohesive.
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Post by chessparov on Feb 18, 2018 15:46:10 GMT -6
How would you guys feel, if we started a "Collaboration Demo Project" thread. One idea might be to put any initial instrumentation, on one side channel (left or right)? Then the other could be left open (perhaps with an original "keeper" or just a guide vocal) for vocal(s) and (possibly) additional instrumentation. A further option would be mixing to Mono, after it's completed. Might be fun! Just a thought...Chris
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Post by wiz on Feb 18, 2018 16:15:21 GMT -6
How would you guys feel, if we started a "Collaboration Demo Project" thread. One idea might be to put any initial instrumentation, on one side channel (left or right)? Then the other could be left open (perhaps with an original "keeper" or just a guide vocal) for vocal(s) and (possibly) additional instrumentation. A further option would be mixing to Mono, after it's completed. Might be fun! Just a thought...Chris just do it with stems. You do a stereo bounce of each instrument. Zip it and put it up on drop box. Its how I have done it in the past. cheers Wiz
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Post by chessparov on Feb 18, 2018 16:45:04 GMT -6
Thanks wiz, I'm on a low tech level here, & record primarily on simple DAW's ala Multitrackstudio/Kristal Audio Engine/Audacity.
So... I'll do some homework and learn about stems, along with dropbox. I have a good friend, who ought to be able to help me too.
Thanks again, Chris
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Post by popmann on Feb 18, 2018 22:45:28 GMT -6
There's no need for stems OR silly "half of stereo" for collaboration. Timestamped PCM tracks go right from one DAW to another at literally sample accuracy.
It should take you five minutes to figure out how your DAW handles timestamped import/export. Which you should know anyway, because storing files in Logic or Cubase or ProTools format is not that different than throwing them away long term--you need to understand how to archive the PCM files that are the consolidated tracks. Done this for 15 or 20 years.
Not sure what that has to do with the topic....but, collaborate....PLEASE....yes....I've always found it ironic that the very tech that allows the entire world to easily collaborate over the internet is the tech that is turning people into one man bands who were not previously. That tech being PCM file standardization. Old guys will remember sounddesignes files....and proprietary hardware storage formats....it used to be a big PIA to collaborate with other musicians in their home studios....I remember when I cut keyboard tracks for a band's album--they brought the 16 track Reel 2 reel to my apartment....and left it there for a few days for me to cut the tracks!!
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Post by wiz on Feb 19, 2018 1:24:58 GMT -6
There's no need for stems OR silly "half of stereo" for collaboration. Timestamped PCM tracks go right from one DAW to another at literally sample accuracy. It should take you five minutes to figure out how your DAW handles timestamped import/export. Which you should know anyway, because storing files in Logic or Cubase or ProTools format is not that different than throwing them away long term--you need to understand how to archive the PCM files that are the consolidated tracks. Done this for 15 or 20 years. Not sure what that has to do with the topic....but, collaborate....PLEASE....yes....I've always found it ironic that the very tech that allows the entire world to easily collaborate over the internet is the tech that is turning people into one man bands who were not previously. That tech being PCM file standardization. Old guys will remember sounddesignes files....and proprietary hardware storage formats....it used to be a big PIA to collaborate with other musicians in their home studios....I remember when I cut keyboard tracks for a band's album--they brought the 16 track Reel 2 reel to my apartment....and left it there for a few days for me to cut the tracks!! There is a need for stems... Track count. Cheers Wiz
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Post by chessparov on Feb 19, 2018 1:56:12 GMT -6
IMHO it'll still take me a little while to figure this stuff out. Thanks guys for the feedback though.
There's good chance one of my local music buddies (who's quite gifted) might want to participate and would walk me through it.
BTW I found an interesting blog by Matthew Moran... Where he discussed using Google Drive instead of Dropbox, to share files.
Chris
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Post by M57 on Feb 19, 2018 6:44:07 GMT -6
There's no need for stems OR silly "half of stereo" for collaboration. Timestamped PCM tracks go right from one DAW to another at literally sample accuracy. -you need to understand how to archive the PCM files that are the consolidated tracks. Done this for 15 or 20 years. That tech being PCM file standardization. Old guys will remember sounddesignes files....and proprietary hardware storage formats.. I'm just amateur but I went from from 4track cassette to 8 tracks tape - ..and remember sd2 files (I think that's what you are talking about) so that qualifies me as an old guy Anyway, I don't recall hearing of PCM tracks before. When I share tracks/stems/collaborate, I send/receive wav files. Slap 'em in Logic and they line up, sample covert and auto-magically set the BPM. I'm pretty sure most of the people I work with are either using Logic or PT ..maybe Reaper, etc, it doesn't seem to matter. From my perspective, it seems like the standard is the standard as long as you use a decent DAW.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 19, 2018 8:21:01 GMT -6
I still use it occasionally, but wesendit is way easier to use than Dropbox. It's a much more elegant interface. In comparison, Dropbox feels like it's 15 years old in implementation. Same deal, free for most things. www.wesendit.com
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Post by popmann on Feb 19, 2018 8:52:55 GMT -6
What I said was a little unclear--the time stamped pcm files CAN be "stems" if you want them to be....but, you can send any combo of tracks or mixes or anything that makes functional sense to/from a collaborator who uses whatever DAW.
Doing various old school things like half a stereo file....or mixes with audible clicks before/after to line up--those kinds of things haven't been needed forever.
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Post by popmann on Feb 19, 2018 8:58:31 GMT -6
PCM is the digital tech behind it all including sd2. I use that word because both variations work the same--BWAV and AIFF. Both are standardized PCM containers WITH a header for a timestamp.
If you say WAV....logic users won't think they can send AIF files....and technical, WAV needs to be the broadcast variety to have the timestamp. AIFF always had it.
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Post by M57 on Feb 19, 2018 9:32:19 GMT -6
I still use it occasionally, but wesendit is way easier to use than Dropbox. It's a much more elegant interface. In comparison, Dropbox feels like it's 15 years old in implementation. Same deal, free for most things. www.wesendit.comI use wesendit too, and it is 'easier' to be sure. But the files have a shelf-life and disappear after a few weeks. Dropbox lets you store, organize, share and update files. They are two different animals to be sure. One of things I like about wesendit is that it supports enormous file sizes ..so you can send as many stems as you want in one fell swoop.
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Post by chessparov on Feb 19, 2018 12:15:47 GMT -6
I'm still learning how to program my VCR! Guess I'll have to try those new fangled DVD's soon... :-) Chris
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