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Post by johneppstein on Dec 24, 2017 16:35:12 GMT -6
The unsolveable issue as I see it is that the country is split roughly down the middle with each side having pretty vastly different ideologies - and each side unwilling to budge, and each side essentially thinking/believing that the other doesn't exist, or that the other side are complete morons who don't deserve to vote / think for themselves. It's been shown here in this thread. I think we have been in the same place in the past (50/50 splits) but the hatred and degradation of the other side was not nearly as rampant as it is now. That coupled with an extremely biased press and lobbyists buying every politician they can find is killing the country. Criticism of politicians and the president is one thing, hatred and uncontrolled anger and the hubris to tear down anything in their way for any reason is another. I don't care WHO our president is, I don't want to turn on the news and hear anti-president stuff that's absolutely stupid every day of the week. The press has no respect for itself anymore. Politicians have no respect for themselves or for their constituents. I honestly think our country as it once was is done. I hope I'm wrong though. Exccept for the fact that the polls are showing anything BUT an even split - it's a lot closer to 80-20 or maybe 75-25. It's just that the minority side has all the money. Or most of it, anyway.
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Post by matt@IAA on Dec 24, 2017 16:38:36 GMT -6
Haha. You basically suggest that to hold a view other than your own in either evil, stupid, or ignorant. Kind of funny, Dr bill or someone pointed this very thing out.
Again this is probably a good place for me to get off the ride.
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Post by drbill on Dec 24, 2017 17:28:54 GMT -6
The unsolveable issue as I see it is that the country is split roughly down the middle with each side having pretty vastly different ideologies - and each side unwilling to budge, and each side essentially thinking/believing that the other doesn't exist, or that the other side are complete morons who don't deserve to vote / think for themselves. It's been shown here in this thread. I think we have been in the same place in the past (50/50 splits) but the hatred and degradation of the other side was not nearly as rampant as it is now. That coupled with an extremely biased press and lobbyists buying every politician they can find is killing the country. Criticism of politicians and the president is one thing, hatred and uncontrolled anger and the hubris to tear down anything in their way for any reason is another. I don't care WHO our president is, I don't want to turn on the news and hear anti-president stuff that's absolutely stupid every day of the week. The press has no respect for itself anymore. Politicians have no respect for themselves or for their constituents. I honestly think our country as it once was is done. I hope I'm wrong though. The problem is that only one side is irrationally biased, Hahahaaaaa!! By saying that you prove my point. Thanks.
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Post by drbill on Dec 24, 2017 17:30:40 GMT -6
The unsolveable issue as I see it is that the country is split roughly down the middle with each side having pretty vastly different ideologies - and each side unwilling to budge, and each side essentially thinking/believing that the other doesn't exist, or that the other side are complete morons who don't deserve to vote / think for themselves. It's been shown here in this thread. I think we have been in the same place in the past (50/50 splits) but the hatred and degradation of the other side was not nearly as rampant as it is now. That coupled with an extremely biased press and lobbyists buying every politician they can find is killing the country. Criticism of politicians and the president is one thing, hatred and uncontrolled anger and the hubris to tear down anything in their way for any reason is another. I don't care WHO our president is, I don't want to turn on the news and hear anti-president stuff that's absolutely stupid every day of the week. The press has no respect for itself anymore. Politicians have no respect for themselves or for their constituents. I honestly think our country as it once was is done. I hope I'm wrong though. Exccept for the fact that the polls are showing anything BUT an even split - it's a lot closer to 80-20 or maybe 75-25. It's just that the minority side has all the money. Or most of it, anyway. you mean 75/25 pro trump? Cause that's how it is where I live. Probably closer to 90/10. go figure. I'll restate the obvious. The country is split roughly down the middle
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 24, 2017 17:53:51 GMT -6
Exccept for the fact that the polls are showing anything BUT an even split - it's a lot closer to 80-20 or maybe 75-25. It's just that the minority side has all the money. Or most of it, anyway. you mean 75/25 pro trump? Cause that's how it is where I live. Probably closer to 90/10. go figure. I'll restate the obvious. The country is split roughly down the middle I dunno, wherever people answer polls. All I know is that nobody's asked ME a damn thing yet.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 24, 2017 18:00:12 GMT -6
Haha. You basically suggest that to hold a view other than your own in either evil, stupid, or ignorant. Kind of funny, Dr bill or someone pointed this very thing out. Again this is probably a good place for me to get off the ride. None of those things, really. Mostly just duped, and duped by some very skillfull people who have been working at this for a very long time and who who are experts at getting people to believe and vote against their own interests. It's basically the same techniques that were used against the German people in the years leading up to WWII. A lot of good, honest, intelligent people were duped into supporting some incredibly evil and horrific policies and actions. It's unfortunately not that hard to do if you're the kind of person who does those things. And if you've been trained to blindly accept authority. Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it.
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Post by drbill on Dec 24, 2017 18:05:17 GMT -6
Haha. You basically suggest that to hold a view other than your own in either evil, stupid, or ignorant. Kind of funny, Dr bill or someone pointed this very thing out. Again this is probably a good place for me to get off the ride. None of those things, really. Mostly just duped, and duped by some very skillfull people who have been working at this for a very long time and who who are experts at getting people to believe and vote against their own interests. And those dupe-sters only exist on ONE side of the political spectrum? ? ? John, you're making this way too easy. you've been duped as much as anyone else who believes opposite of what you do. The reality is, very few people on the planet know the inside stories....
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 24, 2017 18:24:46 GMT -6
None of those things, really. Mostly just duped, and duped by some very skillfull people who have been working at this for a very long time and who who are experts at getting people to believe and vote against their own interests. And those dupe-sters only exist on ONE side of the political spectrum? ? ? John, you're making this way too easy. you've been duped as much as anyone else who believes opposite of what you do. The reality is, very few people on the planet know the inside stories.... Well, first, you don't know what I believe or why. Second, what I believe is not shaped by what anybody in current politics says. However what I DON'T believe is indeed influenced by what certain people claim that's obviously in conflict with known facts. Including the fact that those people often say things that are in opposition to other things they say. Third, you don't know my background, interests, or personal history, or the history of my father, who was a strong influence on my beliefs. I dislike politics, but have a definite interest in history, and probably know more about certain aspects of history than most people. And not just recent history, history goiing back to the Roman Empire and before. Frankly, I find this whole thing extremely tiresome, but I was raised to belive that when you see something that must be said you have an obligation to speak up. All I can say is that you'd do well to delve into the history of Europe between the World Wars. History contains patterns, and those patterns repeat. We're in the middle of one of them now. And that's why my views are what they are. The major difference is that now we have the potential to easily destroy life as we know it on the entire planet in an amazingly short time. I don't like that much. Gotta go.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 24, 2017 21:07:29 GMT -6
I don’t get it. Y’all want it to be everyone’s problem, public charity, but you object to me saying I’d prefer for it to be everyone’s problem, private charity. Anyway I would not agree with a basic plan being national / federal if the basic plan is anything other than major medical. Cuz the inclusion of routine service is what causes broad price inflation by removing pricing feedback mechanism. That’s the whole problem. People aren’t really talking about insurance anymore, just vague “healthcare”. Huge warning flag. It's no charity. You can take your charity and ......... Itr's INSURANCE. You pay in when you able and you take out when you have to. It's as simple as that. Now tell me what's wrong with it, except that you don't want to pay? Responsible people live up to their obligations. You should try it some time, it feels good. I speak from experience.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 24, 2017 21:22:17 GMT -6
I don’t get it. Y’all want it to be everyone’s problem, public charity, but you object to me saying I’d prefer for it to be everyone’s problem, private charity. Anyway I would not agree with a basic plan being national / federal if the basic plan is anything other than major medical. Cuz the inclusion of routine service is what causes broad price inflation by removing pricing feedback mechanism. That’s the whole problem. People aren’t really talking about insurance anymore, just vague “healthcare”. Huge warning flag. Except financially that's ass backwards and how the plan goes broke, time & time & time again it's been shown it's major league cheaper to pay for basic care and prevent the need for costly & longterm major medical! It's not about takeing care of everybody it's about saving money in the big picture a core conservative value !
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Post by matt@IAA on Dec 24, 2017 21:43:51 GMT -6
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Post by yotonic on Dec 24, 2017 22:12:12 GMT -6
This ^ is totally disingenuous and you just called yourself out as one of those people that wants to cherry pick studies to support his own stubborn opinion. It takes little effort to see that the majority of studies don't support your conclusion, and even the study you quoted (quite old) qualifies that what you define as preventative care can skew the conclusions, i.e. unnecessary tests, or Doctor visits make no sense and drive up costs, all current research accepts that. www.surgeongeneral.gov/priorities/prevention/strategy/appendix1.pdf I honestly think this is what drives many people crazy about Trump supporters. Intellectual rigor is applied at whim and reminds people of the flat earthers. As Eric pointed out, you don't even understand the basic business principles of insurance. And you are getting pissed like a couple of the other old timers here and storming off. You have no interest in learning, or changing your mind. So to the young people inheriting the planet you "are" part of the problem. You are entitled to believe the earth is flat or to not understand the principles of insurance, but you aren't entitled to hire a guy to run our company/country who is equally as ignorant and then complain when we the shareholders & press raise holy hell.
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Post by matt@IAA on Dec 25, 2017 0:07:57 GMT -6
Haha man. Who’s mad? And who’s a trump supporter? I didn’t vote for the guy. I’m pretty sure at this point in the game I’m the only one who hasn’t resorted to ad hominem. I just know a waste of time when I see it. Even in this post you call me disingenuous, implied I was showing information in bad faith, close minded, etc. It’s pretty funny actually. Even funnier since the summary on disease prevention you link ironically echoes the information in the article I presented. Some specific screenings are cost effective, most aren’t. The ones in yours are on the list of good bang for the buck. Notice what is not on the list you linked (all specifically mentioned in my article): cancer screenings and annual physicals. On the other hand, my article recommends some things not on your list: asthma care in the home vs hospitals, asthma, aspirin treatment for heart issues. And hypertension is on both lists as a good thing to look into. ACA requirements that all preventative medicine be covered is not only wasteful but ineffective. Be honest now - did you read the article I linked? I don’t claim to be some kind of actuarial expert but I’m pretty sure I know more than the average joe about the ins and outs of insurance, some because of my work, and specifically medical because my wife and mother both work in healthcare - my mom for an anesthesiology billing company. I’m trying to end the discussion gracefully, not because I think y’all are bad people or jerks but because it’s boring and tiresome to be insulted needlessly and lectured with tired arguments - mostly just regurgitated talking points. I do sincerely mean it when I say - merry Christmas! Now hopefully my boys will fall asleep so I can eat those cookies and get their presents ready and get some sleep.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 25, 2017 12:59:36 GMT -6
It depends on what data to include, if you simply look at the cost of a single day in a nursing home and multiply that out you see it's worth it to reduce those costs with preemptive care! That in fact is the biggest drain on Medicaid. & what many consider the poor man's death tax; before Medicaid kicks in you have to use up all your personal assets, guess who has the $$$ to set up trusts and other vehicles to protect them selves from this ? Here's a hint they just got a brake on the inheritance tax! This brings up a big personal bitch about all the "0bama Care Polls", forget that people liked most of the benifits when you didn't say the "O" word ( should have called it Oprah care?) nobody looked at the responses vs how much they had used the healthcare system, because nobody I know who ever really used their insurance was happy with their insurance! Side note, go back and listen to most CEO's back in the midst of the downturn, their biggest long term concern Their Healthcare Costs !
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 25, 2017 16:07:00 GMT -6
Some of my most conservative friends had the shock of their life when a family member got cancer or needed to go into a nursing home.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 25, 2017 16:07:00 GMT -6
None of those things, really. Mostly just duped, and duped by some very skillfull people who have been working at this for a very long time and who who are experts at getting people to believe and vote against their own interests. And those dupe-sters only exist on ONE side of the political spectrum? ? ? John, you're making this way too easy. you've been duped as much as anyone else who believes opposite of what you do. The reality is, very few people on the planet know the inside stories.... Bill, that's unbecoming of you. I'm disappointed.
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Post by rowmat on Dec 25, 2017 17:20:53 GMT -6
Just in case you think you have a monopoly in the US on uber rich privileged leaders who seem to always come out on top at the expense of the ordinary citizen... you don't! Ladies and Gentelmen I give you the current Prime Minister of Australia (former investment banker and CEO of Goldman Sachs Australia) Malcolm Turnbull! His Sydney waterfront mansion was valued in 2015 at $50 Million. Based upon the spiralling Sydney real estate prices in just the past couple of years it would be closer to $60 to $70 million today. Turnbull also turned his initial $500k investment in an Australian internet company in to $60 million in just five years. www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/the-investments-that-built-prime-minister-malcolm-turnbulls-wealth/news-story/ff0611a70a9a908066229f6d4e5910a5He is the leader of the conservative party here in Australia. However the three high ranking union leaders who support our major left wing party have all been caught up in multimillion fraud scams embezzling union member's money and spending up big on their union funded credit cards. Everything from overseas holidays, to cars to electrical goods and even prostitutes etc. etc. As they say..."Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely!" It's the same worldwide everywhere on both sides of politics.
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Post by drbill on Dec 25, 2017 20:21:40 GMT -6
Human nature and greed know no political or national boundaries.
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Post by Quint on Jan 8, 2018 20:34:35 GMT -6
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