ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,940
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Post by ericn on Dec 6, 2017 12:44:29 GMT -6
Does anyone have any experience with the ATM450's? Small side address condensor, 150dB dynamic range with the pad and a 3-7Khz presence lift. On paper it seems like it'd be great for tom sounds and the profile would make placement easy, not too expensive either (I guess about 150 US dollars?). Being the Albini freak I am I'd love the E22's, but I'm not spending 4 figures on Tom Tom microphones. 450 is not a great mic, but other than the Josephson e22's discontinued Sony C36 & C536 very few side address SDC's even fewer at a price you really aren't afraid to put right in there as a drum mic. It's a shame, for Scoring or Live a side address SDC is easier to get in their quite often than an end address!
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Post by Guitar on Dec 6, 2017 13:08:55 GMT -6
I use quite cheap microphones on my toms with good results. High Toms Audix D2, Floor Toms Audix D4 or D6. Sometimes I have Shure SM7 Me too. I heard Joey Waronker recently, who is one of my favorite producers/drummers, say something about it. I'm going to paraphrase. "I usually stick something like an EV 666 in the kick drum because they already sound kind of messed up, then I don't have to spend all day searching for a unique drum sound with mixing." I think he spoke some wisdom, there. I was just telling my buddy in town, "I like old or new oddball EV mics inside the kick drum...not sure why, they just sound good." Then I said, "Wait a minute...that's why I like them...because they sound good!" I feel the same way about drum room mics. That is a great place to use weird ribbons and stuff, EV 635a, whatever. Overheads, snare, I'm probably going for a little more hi-fi sound in general. When I was at Omega they used a "crotch mic" on me. I've heard other people call this a "heart" or "knee" mic when placed slightly differently. Lot of times people will mangle it with some compressor like a Dynamite, or do other extreme processes like gating or distortion. I've had good luck slamming a 4-track cassette recorder with one of these. Moses Schneider has a good Sound On Sound video about this technique. All in the name of personality and character, I suppose.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,940
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Post by ericn on Dec 6, 2017 17:02:18 GMT -6
I use quite cheap microphones on my toms with good results. High Toms Audix D2, Floor Toms Audix D4 or D6. Sometimes I have Shure SM7 Me too. I heard Joey Waronker recently, who is one of my favorite producers/drummers, say something about it. I'm going to paraphrase. "I usually stick something like an EV 666 in the kick drum because they already sound kind of messed up, then I don't have to spend all day searching for a unique drum sound with mixing." I think he spoke some wisdom, there. I was just telling my buddy in town, "I like old or new oddball EV mics inside the kick drum...not sure why, they just sound good." Then I said, "Wait a minute...that's why I like them...because they sound good!" I feel the same way about drum room mics. That is a great place to use weird ribbons and stuff, EV 635a, whatever. Overheads, snare, I'm probably going for a little more hi-fi sound in general. When I was at Omega they used a "crotch mic" on me. I've heard other people call this a "heart" or "knee" mic when placed slightly differently. Lot of times people will mangle it with some compressor like a Dynamite, or do other extreme processes like gating or distortion. I've had good luck slamming a 4-track cassette recorder with one of these. Moses Schneider has a good Sound On Sound video about this technique. All in the name of personality and character, I suppose. Any EV mic other than the modern Chinese made stuff is a great buy!
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Post by EmRR on Dec 6, 2017 18:11:04 GMT -6
666 on kick and bass amp is an instantly recognizable thing.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 7, 2017 2:24:29 GMT -6
In my experience one of the major problems with the e604 is that it's not very durable, not a trait I admire in a tom or snare mic. Mine has seen relatively few gigs (maybe half a dozen or so) and a few recording sessions and it had lost its front grille and is starting to come apart. Sounds like the problem is the shit drummer that can’t hit the middle of the head 😂 Maybe he wanted to produce a sound that isn't produced by hitting the center of the head?
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Post by gouge on Dec 7, 2017 6:19:29 GMT -6
i've got a pair. crisp sounding mics. i've used them on brushes and snare and some americana drums i made from plastic buckets and cardboard. worked very well in all of those situations. imagine they'd be good on guitar cabs too. not used them on toms. i've not use the e22s but from what was described to me the sound is nothing like the atm450. you should try an sm57 with the transformer removed... hint hint.... I would love to hear the Americana drums you rigged up Cheers Wiz hi wiz, I posted the file in the what are you working on forum. cheers.
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moze
Full Member
Posts: 35
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Post by moze on Dec 9, 2017 15:16:51 GMT -6
Based on the other tom mic thread, I thought I'd start one for finding good/great/best mics for toms with minimal bleed/off axis leakage. What have you guys found to be good in this respect? I've been using 421s forever and grown used to them, warts and all. But I think it's time for a change. It's probably time for a change in your thinking about drum micing. Any mic with sufficiently minimal off axis leakage (if such a mic even exists) is going to sound funny when close micing a drum because it won't pick up much of anything beyond the tiny spot on the head it's aimed at. And frankly I don't believe such a mic exists - you're still going to get leakage becauser proximity to other high decibel sources is too close. And mics with very tight patterns usually have highly colored off axis pickup. If you're looking for a more natural drum sound you don't want to close mic. You want to use mics with a normal cardioid pattern an d good off axis response at a distance of a couple of feet from the kit. First thing you have to change is your thinking about the kit itself. A drum kit is an single instrument, not a collection of disparate sources. Leakage is your friend, not your enemy. As such, it needs to be picked up by a simple, but well thought out array of mics, working together synergisticly. There are a couple of approaches to doing this. One is a pair of overheads with a kick mic. The other, which is the one I favor, is a front of kit, a side (FT) of kit, a snare, and a kick. If you have the mics and want to get fancy you can use a kick (in) mic and a kick (out) mic at a distance of about 2 feet with a tunnel to prevent leakage. You can also add either stereo or mono room mics at a distance of several feet. Front and side of kit mics should be good quality cardioid LDCs. I use Pearlman TM-1s, one about 1.5-2 feet from the racks (front-of-kit) and the other the same distance from the floor. both are between 6" and 1.5' above the top rims of their respective tome, adjusted by ear for balance with the cymbals. the two mics should be roughly the same distance from the snare, but you don't need to be anal about it. If it sounds good, it is good. I only use a single kick mic (space considerations, plus I don't have the second mic I'd want to use), which is either an EV RE-20 (NOT one of their cheaper look alikes). A reissue U-47 FET would be better, but I don't own one. Alternately, I use an AKG D12 (NOT a D112, which is an horrible excuse for a microphone). That would be my preferred mic on many kits other than my house kit. Another good alternate is the Beyer M-88 but I don't use mine for that as it's my vocal mic for live performance. Snare mic is a bit odd in my placement. I currently use a Neumann KM84 ( DO NOT cheap out with a 184, they sound like crap.) Placement is up to you, but I have found that optimum placement is on the SIDE of the drum about 2" away, give or take a smidge, off-axis from the soundhole by 1-3 inches, and height adjusted by ear for a balance between top an bottom heads. Yeah, it's weird, but try it, you'll be amazed. You can get a better, more natural sound than any two mic combo and ther are zero phase problems. The drum sounds like the drum. (Yeah, I didn't believe it either at first, but try it.) Before I got the 84 is was getting acceptable results with an AKG C451EB ( NOT the new piece of crap, the old, modular one), but the 84's unparalleled off axis response allows a very natural sounding and (with proper placement, which ain't hard) pickup of the hi-hat, in balance and with great tone. For a room mic I use a U87, which is OK but less than ideal - but I do not presently own a pair of Coles 4058s. My current setup is based on a variant of the Glyn Johns method developed by William Wittman aka "Weedy Wet" , who had a thread dedicated to it on the now defunct Womb Forums. There's an internet archive of it if you know how to use that, but I believe the photos are gone....
This is a fun technique. I happened to save some of the pics from that thread.
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Post by jampa on Dec 9, 2017 16:36:32 GMT -6
Here's the audio example that goes with it
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Post by Guitar on Dec 9, 2017 17:47:11 GMT -6
that's a really cool drum sound
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