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Post by EmRR on Nov 28, 2017 15:18:47 GMT -6
I will point out that Al Schmidtt uses 414s in OMNI to mic "tom toms" (as he called them and I giggle)....with the idea being that rather than try to isolate, you want to lose all the off axis coloration and phase shift and just be able to bring it up bleed and all and sound good, only "not the toms are louder/fuller and you can EQ them".... Amen to that. Many times it's the better approach. Also true with guide vocals in room with band, when they might decide to keep them instead of re-tracking. None of the nasty off-axis drum bleed, let it be part of the drum sound. Saved my butt many times.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 28, 2017 15:21:55 GMT -6
As fare as hearing some of my stuff is concerned I'd be more than happy to post a few cuts off the album I have coming out soon, if I knew how to post music files on this site (Advice please? I've actually been wanting to post some stuff here for some time now.). soundcloud.com Thanks, but.... There's no other way? I didn't pay Bob for mastering to have Soundcloud do their thing to it..... If it's the only way....?
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 28, 2017 15:23:49 GMT -6
I will point out that Al Schmidtt uses 414s in OMNI to mic "tom toms" (as he called them and I giggle)....with the idea being that rather than try to isolate, you want to lose all the off axis coloration and phase shift and just be able to bring it up bleed and all and sound good, only "not the toms are louder/fuller and you can EQ them".... Amen to that. Many times it's the better approach. Also true with guide vocals in room with band, when they might decide to keep them instead of re-tracking. None of the nasty off-axis drum bleed, let it be part of the drum sound. Saved my butt many times. That's essentially what I've been trying to get across.
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Post by jampa on Nov 28, 2017 15:24:43 GMT -6
Not minimal leakage, but...
Sometimes I use the Line Audio CM3 on toms - subcardioid pickup but neutral off-axis sound
The bleed sounds like the kit
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Post by EmRR on Nov 28, 2017 15:32:09 GMT -6
Thanks, but.... There's no other way? I didn't pay Bob for mastering to have Soundcloud do their thing to it..... If it's the only way....? Band camp sounds better, has higher quality delivery options for purchases. You can name your price, or make things free.
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Post by Guitar on Nov 28, 2017 15:54:08 GMT -6
I kind of do what svart does and just use the manually edited tom hits for "whumpf" or whatever on rock stuff. That's pretty much everything I've ever recorded so I'm not sure it applies to other genres. Dynamic mics are perfect for the job. Also, I find that it's best not to worry about toms too much. You start to hear all these various ideas, start to split hairs, and you're focusing on tom tom sound instead of producing a song. At least I have had analysis paralysis over it before. That said, this is a good, concise thread on the topic. My new Gretsch Renown toms just sing! A lot of it is the drum and the head. And I agree. I have had some really horrible players with bad touch get bad drum sounds out of any gear, no matter how good.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 28, 2017 16:00:34 GMT -6
Thanks, but.... There's no other way? I didn't pay Bob for mastering to have Soundcloud do their thing to it..... If it's the only way....? As Doug said, Band camp. Dropbox or Google Drive are also convenient for sharing.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 28, 2017 16:06:12 GMT -6
It's probably time for a change in your thinking about drum micing. Any mic with sufficiently minimal off axis leakage (if such a mic even exists) is going to sound funny when close micing a drum because it won't pick up much of anything beyond the tiny spot on the head it's aimed at. And frankly I don't believe such a mic exists - you're still going to get leakage becauser proximity to other high decibel sources is too close. And mics with very tight patterns usually have highly colored off axis pickup. If you're looking for a more natural drum sound you don't want to close mic. You want to use mics with a normal cardioid pattern an d good off axis response at a distance of a couple of feet from the kit. First thing you have to change is your thinking about the kit itself. A drum kit is an single instrument, not a collection of disparate sources. Leakage is your friend, not your enemy. As such, it needs to be picked up by a simple, but well thought out array of mics, working together synergisticly. There are a couple of approaches to doing this. One is a pair of overheads with a kick mic. The other, which is the one I favor, is a front of kit, a side (FT) of kit, a snare, and a kick. If you have the mics and want to get fancy you can use a kick (in) mic and a kick (out) mic at a distance of about 2 feet with a tunnel to prevent leakage. You can also add either stereo or mono room mics at a distance of several feet. Front and side of kit mics should be good quality cardioid LDCs. I use Pearlman TM-1s, one about 1.5-2 feet from the racks (front-of-kit) and the other the same distance from the floor. both are between 6" and 1.5' above the top rims of their respective tome, adjusted by ear for balance with the cymbals. the two mics should be roughly the same distance from the snare, but you don't need to be anal about it. If it sounds good, it is good. I only use a single kick mic (space considerations, plus I don't have the second mic I'd want to use), which is either an EV RE-20 (NOT one of their cheaper look alikes). A reissue U-47 FET would be better, but I don't own one. Alternately, I use an AKG D12 (NOT a D112, which is an horrible excuse for a microphone). That would be my preferred mic on many kits other than my house kit. Another good alternate is the Beyer M-88 but I don't use mine for that as it's my vocal mic for live performance. Snare mic is a bit odd in my placement. I currently use a Neumann KM84 ( DO NOT cheap out with a 184, they sound like crap.) Placement is up to you, but I have found that optimum placement is on the SIDE of the drum about 2" away, give or take a smidge, off-axis from the soundhole by 1-3 inches, and height adjusted by ear for a balance between top an bottom heads. Yeah, it's weird, but try it, you'll be amazed. You can get a better, more natural sound than any two mic combo and ther are zero phase problems. The drum sounds like the drum. (Yeah, I didn't believe it either at first, but try it.) Before I got the 84 is was getting acceptable results with an AKG C451EB ( NOT the new piece of crap, the old, modular one), but the 84's unparalleled off axis response allows a very natural sounding and (with proper placement, which ain't hard) pickup of the hi-hat, in balance and with great tone. For a room mic I use a U87, which is OK but less than ideal - but I do not presently own a pair of Coles 4058s. My current setup is based on a variant of the Glyn Johns method developed by William Wittman aka "Weedy Wet" , who had a thread dedicated to it on the now defunct Womb Forums. There's an internet archive of it if you know how to use that, but I believe the photos are gone....
Thank you for your reply, John. No matter how presumptuous parts of it was But it did not address what I asked. What mics have you found to have little off axis leakage? In those rare cases where you'd want separation? To prevent further misunderstanding with you, John, here's my current drum mic'ing setup (as long as the drummer can deal with it): Recordeman setup OHs: Coles 4038 (32" above the snare and from snare to over right the shoulder. Also equidistant from the kick in both places) Kick: U47 FET + Beta 91 inside (no hole in the front head) Snare: Top:Beyerdynamic M201 / Bottom: Beta 57 Toms: MD421s Ambient: Mono Royer 121 (no place for spaced pair at the moment) As with everything; it all depends on the band/sound wanted/the musician. But lately, this has been a perfect fit for the recordings I've done. Now, if I could only find a better tom mic... Well, within the context you're using I'd suggest a couple or three Beyerdynamic M-88TGs. Hypercardioid moving coil dynamics, sound pretty darn good on most anything you care to use them on. Priced somewhere between a 421 and a 441. Physical format like a 58. Beyer M201s are also good sounding hypercardioid dynamics Smaller diaphragm, format like an average SDC. Around $300 at Sweetwater. You can probably do better if you have a good relationship with a dealer.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 28, 2017 16:12:28 GMT -6
I kind of do what svart does and just use the manually edited tom hits for "whumpf" or whatever on rock stuff. That's pretty much everything I've ever recorded so I'm not sure it applies to other genres. Dynamic mics are perfect for the job. Also, I find that it's best not to worry about toms too much. You start to hear all these various ideas, start to split hairs, and you're focusing on tom tom sound instead of producing a song. At least I have had analysis paralysis over it before. That said, this is a good, concise thread on the topic. My new Gretsch Renown toms just sing! A lot of it is the drum and the head. And I agree. I have had some really horrible players with bad touch get bad drum sounds out of any gear, no matter how good. I hardly ever think about tom sound anymore. I set up the rig and it just works. I will spend some time on snare balance between top and bottom - which is pretty easy with the sidemiced drum and the 84, but not even close to the fooling around I had to do with top and bottom mics and I'll spend a little time getting the kick mic right
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 28, 2017 16:16:40 GMT -6
Thanks, but.... There's no other way? I didn't pay Bob for mastering to have Soundcloud do their thing to it..... If it's the only way....? Band camp sounds better, has higher quality delivery options for purchases. You can name your price, or make things free. Thanks!
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Post by schmalzy on Nov 28, 2017 17:05:41 GMT -6
I'd say that most any hypercardioid mic will work, you just have to find the distance and angle to the right part of the head that balances everything you want from it. Also, it's important to note that almost no professional tracking guys will allow the drummer to place his cymbals and such as close as they normally would. Get the cymbals as far from the drums and mics as the drummer can reliably play them. Even moving the cymbals a few inches can dramatically drop the bleed. ALSO #3, Most folks who record drums regularly only use the close mics as the meat n' potatoes of the tom sound. The attack and sustain are usually from the overheads and rooms. I aggressively gate/edit my toms to little more than thumps and either add a little reverb to them to "fake" the tails, or let the compressed OH/Room sound fill them out. Then again, I'm usually doing rock/metal stuff. These are huge points to me. Earn some respect if possible before the drummer shows up. Show them how good your stuff can sound. Show them how pro you are. Show them you're interested and invested in them. Then, show them where their cymbals should be. Inverse square law (I'm pretty sure it's called): doubling the distance halves the volume. If you can squeeze 4-6 inches of extra space between cymbalsand the mics, you'll be in much better shape then you'd have been otherwise. Hell, I'll sacrifice some ideal tone just to get the mic a little closer to the drum head and gain another extra inch or two. The more I do this stuff - which is a lot less than most of you other cats - the more I'm finding myself relying on room mics and overheads for drum tone and the close mics for the attack. I'm in a similar position to svart in the fact that I do a lot of rock/metal bands. So many of those bands need attack WAY MORE than they need anything else from their toms just by virtue of the tempos of the songs. The room mics can often give me the sustain and length I want. Gate that close tom shit tight and let Satan sort 'em out! ... or take some samples on each drum tracking day and drop those things underneath the existing tom hits. On the occasions where all I needed was some extra sustain, a 6db/oct low pass filter starting around 200hz gave me a good bit to work with to add in the bottom of the tom tone. Check phase, blend into a tom group (or print them together) and Bob's your uncle. Mics I've been using lately? I've been using the Sennheiser e604s when space is at a premium and/or when I can't trust the drummer's stick accuracy. Sometimes on the tom mounts and sometimes on stands ( stormymondays , you're crazy...but I might be, too). I give 'em a B- but, you know, I don't need someone breaking stuff in my already-small mic locker. I used some cheaper AKG LDCs (Perception 400s) a long time in the past and I think I'm going to have to try them again soon - I remember liking them but I've only got two and a lot of the drummers I've been tracking lately have mega-kits. I've also used some Chinese SDCs on toms and got varying good/bad results. The off-axis sound is more even than on a lot of my dynamics so I was able to point it down through the tom more than straight at the center. That angle seemed to reject more cymbals than my standard dynamic mic/mic position combinations, gave me more tom body and a ton of boxy stuff that got EQ'd out (because it was pointed into the head more), but gave me decent attack because the slightly off-axis stuff still sounded good. Downside? The toms resonated a ton just by the kick and snare expressing energy in the room and, since the mic was pointed downward right near the rim, the SDCs picked up a ton of that constant ring along with a really long sustain when the drums were hit. We tuned for less ring and used moongels but the ring was still problematic. That stuff got edited out in the end so there was no real negative effect unless you were hoping to leave that tom mic bleed in. If you're a really good drum tuner, I'd say SDCs are a great way to go. In a perfect world I'd have been able to raise 'em up a little higher to lose a little of that ring but, as is often the case, the mega drum kit I was working with at the time also had a ton of brass not far above the shells and I didn't have the space to move the mics higher off the drum heads. One of the bands I do live sound for uses the Shure Beta98A miniature condenser mics ( www.shure.com/americas/products/microphones/beta/beta-98a-miniature-cardioid-condenser-microphone ). Four toms including a 16" and 18". I'm never 1000% thrilled by the low end coming out of them but I'm always able to get something useable. A little higher self-noise than I'm excited about possibly relegates it to on-stage-only but if you loved the sound it might be worth it to scrub the tom tracks with Isotope RX to reduce the noise. Slow day at the day job. Sorry for the long post!
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Post by Guitar on Nov 28, 2017 17:32:28 GMT -6
I get ring problems sometimes even with dynamic mics. Can't imagine what that SDC must have sounded like!
Of course this is the reason for editing/gating. Or one of them.
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Post by popmann on Nov 28, 2017 17:45:31 GMT -6
Funny thing--I went to find Al saying it himself, and found a video saying he keeps the toms in cardioid and the overheads in omni...now....so...YMMV.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Nov 28, 2017 18:51:29 GMT -6
I get ring problems sometimes even with dynamic mics. Can't imagine what that SDC must have sounded like! Of course this is the reason for editing/gating. Or one of them. I find I can usually tune the ring out of most drums, with the exception of DW drums. Those things just resonate forever and don’t seem to ever stop. So many people spend time editing out sections, or setting gates. I prefer to take an hour with a kit, throw on new heads, and get it right from the start. I do usually like to use my own drums too - just cause I know what I’m getting into.
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Post by svart on Nov 29, 2017 10:19:02 GMT -6
I get ring problems sometimes even with dynamic mics. Can't imagine what that SDC must have sounded like! Of course this is the reason for editing/gating. Or one of them. I find I can usually tune the ring out of most drums, with the exception of DW drums. Those things just resonate forever and don’t seem to ever stop. So many people spend time editing out sections, or setting gates. I prefer to take an hour with a kit, throw on new heads, and get it right from the start. I do usually like to use my own drums too - just cause I know what I’m getting into. I have a pile of drum heads in the studio. I mean like 40 heads of various types. Most of them are heavier or have more plies than people normally play. I find they tend to cure most ills without resorting to moongels or tape or trick tuning (detuning single lugs, etc). My favorites are emperor CS for metal snares with rounded edges (black beauty/magic, sensitone, etc) or aquarian triple threats for wood snares of any type, all tuned between E and A for the key of the song. Remo pinstripe/Evans EC2 (same thing basically) for toms, tuned for intervals between D2 and D3, and EMAD2 or Superkick2 for bass tuned to D1 to F1 depending on the key of the song and/or the bass guitar. If you can't get a basic rock sound from these, there is something wrong! As a drummer, it shames me to say it that my fellow brothers are generally the worst at keeping their own instruments up to snuff. They typically can't tune them, and they typically let the drums fall apart and there's no way around going through the drums with the drummer. I try to get them to use my personal/studio kit, and a lot end up doing it once they hear it, but a lot won't and we'll end up spending a few hours swapping heads and fixing buzzes. While it's kind of a drag to do, the results are worth it, and usually the drummers are more than ecstatic about how much better their kits sound. i find it makes them play better too.
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Post by nobtwiddler on Nov 29, 2017 10:23:43 GMT -6
For most of the stuff I do here, when I'm in charge it's usually 3 or 4 mics on the kit...
But for everything else, when all the drums are mic'ed up, I usually use Shure Sm-98's for the attack, & punch of toms, while getting most of the sound from my overheads, which can vary from a Royer SF-12 (my personal favorite) to Neumann SM-69 tube. When using the Shure's for the toms, sometimes, I will clean the tracks and just keep the toms hits, thus eliminating all the bleed and rely on the overheads for the real sound !
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Post by Bender on Nov 29, 2017 11:20:58 GMT -6
I don't think my posts are really negative at all - elitist perhaps, but not negative.
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Post by Ward on Nov 29, 2017 12:10:49 GMT -6
Electro=Vice ND 2308 and 408 mins from the mid90s give fantastic rejection... but they also reject tone sometimes... So, meh.
CAD M179s are great for off axis rejection but are prone to failure and suddenly catching fire (kidding about the last bit) Neumann U89s work well. So do KM84s (s John Ep stated)
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 29, 2017 13:19:12 GMT -6
Electro=Vice ND 2308 and 408 mins from the mid90s give fantastic rejection... but they also reject tone sometimes... So, meh. CAD M179s are great for off axis rejection but are prone to failure and suddenly catching fire (kidding about the last bit) Neumann U89s work well. So do KM84s (s John Ep stated) Yeah, ND408s can work well on drums. Thery're actually a pretty good kick mic and work pretty well on most floor toms. Racks, too. And they're easy to place. However I have not really used them since becoming sensitive to the off-axis response question.
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Post by jampa on Nov 29, 2017 14:34:00 GMT -6
At least for me, there's a drum resonating and then there's an annoying ringing
svart nails it - there are heads for the job or other tricks
The snareweight stuff is cool if expensive
A less resonant or ringy tom is less "noise" in the far mics - it's own sort of minimal bleed mechanism
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 2, 2017 3:25:39 GMT -6
e604s are not very good mics. John, why are all of your posts so negative? The post above this one, you're telling the dude that he shouldn't be close micing. In the SDC thread, you commenting about how the 184 is crap and Neumann made a mistake with that mic. 90% of your posts are a constant barrage of how everything sucks. It seems like your attitude is always your way or the highway. How about if you post an example of the stellar results that you're getting with 4 mics on the kit (or whatever combination you're using)? Let's hear some context to go with your posts so we can decide if any of the hot air coming out has merit or not. In this case because I own one and am singularly unimpressed with pretty much everything about it. Heck, it was designed to be a cheap semi-pro mic for "prosumer" use in small clubs. I believe I already talked about it once, maybe you missed it? How many times do I have to repeat that "context", anyway? About the best thing I can say about is that I'm glad I didn't buy the set of 3.
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Post by Guitar on Dec 2, 2017 9:45:13 GMT -6
I like my e604, I think they do a great job on toms. You can even record a guitar amp with one if you're feeling froggy.
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Post by christopher on Dec 2, 2017 10:28:07 GMT -6
I like e604. Live I've used them and they can sound just like I want a recording to sound. I've never owned them though. But a drummer I recorded had one. I tried to use it on floor tom, it sounded terrible, rattling etc. I took it off the clip and put it on a stand. Much better/no more rattling but kinda nothing impressive about the sound. I backed off the distance to get that fat floor I'm used to hearing. Didn't work. Im not sure why not- figured it was broken or something. The sound was not fat, not beefy, just all attack even at distance. So I tried beta58 because I ran out of mics. The beta58 destroyed the e604 immediatley, fat, clean, detailed etc. It confused me because I've used e604 hundreds of times live and they work really well. So I don't know if the one I used that day was broken, or if they changed the design along the way, or if they suffer from counterfeits out in the world, or what. But I learned something important that day: if it sucks, try EVERY mic. Even the ones I "know" won't work,.
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Post by stormymondays on Dec 2, 2017 12:59:05 GMT -6
No trouble at all with my e604 on a perfectly tuned Yamaha Recording Custom. I've tried a few better mics and they're not worth the hassle, especially since I'll probably get the sound from the overheads anyway :-D
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Post by Tbone81 on Dec 2, 2017 15:11:21 GMT -6
I like e604. Live I've used them and they can sound just like I want a recording to sound. I've never owned them though. But a drummer I recorded had one. I tried to use it on floor tom, it sounded terrible, rattling etc. I took it off the clip and put it on a stand. Much better/no more rattling but kinda nothing impressive about the sound. I backed off the distance to get that fat floor I'm used to hearing. Didn't work. Im not sure why not- figured it was broken or something. The sound was not fat, not beefy, just all attack even at distance. So I tried beta58 because I ran out of mics. The beta58 destroyed the e604 immediatley, fat, clean, detailed etc. It confused me because I've used e604 hundreds of times live and they work really well. So I don't know if the one I used that day was broken, or if they changed the design along the way, or if they suffer from counterfeits out in the world, or what. But I learned something important that day: if it sucks, try EVERY mic. Even the ones I "know" won't work,. I like e604's as well, I think they're very usable and do the job just fine. There are of coarse better mics to be had but I'd never call them bad. However I never end up using them on floor tom. Usually use a 421 for that. I tend to think of the floor tom as being closer to a kick drum than a rack tom. Interesting that you used a beta58, that wouldn't have been my first choice but its always nice when you surprise yourself like that. After reading all these posts I think I'll get a 2nd Beyer m201 and try it on floor tom (the one I own lives on snare).
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