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Post by johneppstein on Nov 3, 2017 21:34:11 GMT -6
I use the e604 on my rack toms, clipped on. I manually clip out all the bleed in the DAW leaving only the exact times the toms are being played. Takes about 5 minutes for a 3 minute song with three toms. I really like these mics. I've seen Nigel Godrich, my #1 guy using these on Radiohead in studio. If you have extra cash, I believe the e904 to just sound that much more clear in the high end. It's a subtle difference though. I think for a big modern rock sound, you're going to want those close mics. I like simpler setups like John's too but maybe for music that's not quite as 'straight ahead' I mean it's just a drum sound but you do have to make a choice. Vibey vs in your face, whatever you want to call it. The floor tom I treat as a bass instrument, and would use a larger mic there. Most of the time a D112 for me. Sounds thunderous. I'm sure an MD421 would be great. The thing is, trap kit really is ONE INSTRUMENT and should should present as an integrated whole. Of course one can (should) emphasize certain aspects of that integrated whole at specific times but the kit shouldn't really present as a colection of disparate instruments. A musical composition/production should present as an integrated whole, not a bunch of various separate entities. To do that is distracting (you want people to enjoy the musical composition, not be listening to the kick, the guitar, the glockenspiel, the snare, the bicycle horn, the clausenframmer, etc. That's distracting from the musical purpose. This mania for perfect separation of everything is actually a relatively recent thing, born of the obsession with "technical perfection" that started coming in with the advent of the big multitrack machines and exacerbated by inadvised application of digital technology without real consideration of overall aesthetics, and, it can be effectively argued, actually represents a step backwards in the quest for musicality. In orchestral music the conductor's primary role (in addition to associated things like controlling tempo, etc.) is to shape and guide the blend and the balance. Should that not be the goal in all musical production? When I do a mix what concerns me most is the emotional reaction and immersion of the listener. I don't want them being distracted by listening to the individual instruments, except in certain very specific, defined cases/events. When the vocalist's delivery of a emotionally charged song should be tearing the listener's heart out I (for one) don't want him being distracted by thinking "MAN, that's as GREAT kick drum sound. or LISTEN to the clarity and separation on that GLOCKENSPIEL!!! Or, in other words, the listener should be listening to the SONG, not the production... The production should serve the song, not vice-versa.
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Post by jazznoise on Nov 4, 2017 2:59:54 GMT -6
Some people want a really dry drum sound, though, and if the only space you have is reverberant than it comes down to isolating the drums and trying to make a simulacra of a kit in a dry room. RE: Recording the kit as a whole. I generally prefer to work that way - some bands really like it, some want something more sculpted/elaborate seeming. Today I'm in recording a band who are young and have basically said they don't really mind about the audio quality, the day after I'm working with a stoner metal band, wednesday it's a much tighter Post-Hardcore/Emo band that are working to a guide click. Here's a track I did recently for a band, one of the 10 songs we recorded live that day. Kit sounds great - player tuned it nicely and absolutely hammered the thing. We did some guitar double tracks just to feel a bit posh and that was it: drive.google.com/open?id=0B1hzErNHBufHRWdheXlSMVJTRDQThe band and I were happy with the raw feel it gives the tracks. Not every band would want that, though.
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Post by kevinnyc on Nov 4, 2017 6:41:05 GMT -6
I don't know your role with the band but maybe you could convince the drummer to only bring minimal toms? "Tell me which 3 toms you'd like on the record." As a musician I'd take great issue with someone saying this to me.
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Post by spindrift on Nov 4, 2017 10:17:38 GMT -6
I don't know your role with the band but maybe you could convince the drummer to only bring minimal toms? "Tell me which 3 toms you'd like on the record." As a musician I'd take great issue with someone saying this to me. Hence the smiley face...
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Post by kevinnyc on Nov 4, 2017 10:44:13 GMT -6
If you and I were working together and I brought a rack of esoteric gear to be used on the session, would you decline because you've only practiced your craft with your existing gear?
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Post by EmRR on Nov 4, 2017 14:17:41 GMT -6
If you and I were working together and I brought a rack of esoteric gear to be used on the session, would you decline because you've only practiced your craft with your existing gear? As someone who has played in a lot of bands and has a lot of esoteric gear, that seems quite different. But directly, depends on the session, I might decline an unexpected rack of esoteric equipment. Did we talk about a plan around that rack ahead of time? If we didn't, it's at best a complete lack of preproduction conversation, as it is a complete lack of reasonable preparation on a musician's part to throw in untested instrument/amp variables which have no established result benchmark. It makes a lot of untried assumptions. I've seen a lot of loaner instrument situations crash and burn on the clock. How big is the time budget? Now if the session has been agreed to be about untried assumptions, that's different. Some thrive on that, most don't seem to. I try to have as much of a prepro convo as I can, involving input list (instruments/amps/efx) and playing dynamics especially if the act doesn't have recording experience, only stage experience. The outcome of that convo is a best guess input chain that's preset before the client walks in, since there are usually only tens of dollars to be spent on the whole thing, so signal path changes have to be minimal. Sometimes the guesses are wildly wrong and a lot changes, but usually not.
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Post by notneeson on Nov 4, 2017 22:56:07 GMT -6
You pretty much always have to feel these things out. Some clients want you to capture "their sound." Some want you to help them find it. Some get mad when they discover you've put reverb on the snare. Only time and more convos will tell.
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Post by swurveman on Nov 5, 2017 9:18:06 GMT -6
If you and I were working together and I brought a rack of esoteric gear to be used on the session, would you decline because you've only practiced your craft with your existing gear? As someone who has played in a lot of bands and has a lot of esoteric gear, that seems quite different. But directly, depends on the session, I might decline an unexpected rack of esoteric equipment. Did we talk about a plan around that rack ahead of time? If we didn't, it's at best a complete lack of preproduction conversation, as it is a complete lack of reasonable preparation on a musician's part to throw in untested instrument/amp variables which have no established result benchmark. It makes a lot of untried assumptions. I've seen a lot of loaner instrument situations crash and burn on the clock. How big is the time budget? Now if the session has been agreed to be about untried assumptions, that's different. Some thrive on that, most don't seem to. I try to have as much of a prepro convo as I can, involving input list (instruments/amps/efx) and playing dynamics especially if the act doesn't have recording experience, only stage experience. The outcome of that convo is a best guess input chain that's preset before the client walks in, since there are usually only tens of dollars to be spent on the whole thing, so signal path changes have to be minimal. Sometimes the guesses are wildly wrong and a lot changes, but usually not. Since it's my session, I thought I'd chime in. I've recommended to the bandleader that for this week's two practices that the drummer bring all 5 toms. Like I said before, I've had guys insist on all 5 and then hit very few when the red light is on. It's up to them to know what their personnel is capable of. If the drummer struggles with his tom fills due to the increased number, they'll pay more. I have decided to buy three Sennheiser e604's just in case he hits them all.
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Post by Ward on Nov 5, 2017 14:38:19 GMT -6
The more open mics, the more bleed. The more bleed, the more smear. The more smear, the more mess. The more mess, the more to clean up later. And as has been pointed out, 421s sound downright ugly off axis, so that means going in and nullifying everything but when the channel is actually on for a tom hit, or automating the hell out of it. I prefer cleaning up the manual way.
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Post by svart on Nov 6, 2017 9:30:51 GMT -6
I've done this many times. it's not nearly as big a deal as it seems. I even use hypercardioid mics to do it too. Most mics like to be around 5-7" away from the tom anyway (it allows the bottom end to "bloom" some and sound bigger), so just kinda move it towards the middle between the two toms.
Also, the smaller toms don't project their sound as much, so angle the mic a little towards the smaller tom, then listen and see if you might need to adjust them.
OR..
If the drummer is using multiple floor toms, use the single mic for those toms and bring it up another few inches, maybe 8-10" and angle it down more so that you get less cymbal bleed.
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