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Post by jayson on Nov 2, 2017 19:07:59 GMT -6
Is the kit isolated? Any chance of using a Glyn Johns approach? i.e. micing the kit at more of a distance; as a single instrument rather than a conglomeration of smaller instruments? Finding myself liking that approach more these days. But no denying it's definitely a bit more involved. There's fewer mics to manage but it requires a lot more time to move mics around hunting for the sweet spots. But once you get them nailed down it's worth it. You can avoid some of the phasing issues that happen when you mic individually.
I would absolutely agree that SM57 makes for a great mic on higher toms. You don't have to worry too much if they get smacked with a stick!
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Post by notneeson on Nov 2, 2017 20:01:56 GMT -6
With this figure 8 concept, the capsule is at about 90 degrees relative to the batter head? Trying to picture it.
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Post by spindrift on Nov 2, 2017 22:14:17 GMT -6
I don't know your role with the band but maybe you could convince the drummer to only bring minimal toms? "Tell me which 3 toms you'd like on the record."
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Post by Tbone81 on Nov 2, 2017 22:17:47 GMT -6
Try some Sennheiser e604's. They're pretty decent tom mics and easier to position than 421's, also cheaper. But make sure to use stands as the rim clips really limit your mic placement. Thanks. You're the third person here who has used or has suggested the e604's. . In the Audix d2 video that I watched, the rim clip seemed pretty flexible for rack toms for either getting a full sound with the mic pointed in the middle of the tom or a more ring sound pointing near the edge. What problems did you encounter with the e604's and mic placement? In my experience the clips either work great, or not at all. It's really dependent on how the kit is setup. And if you have a drummer with lots of low cymbals they can be difficult to get in the right spot. Having them attached to mic stands solves most of that. For my own setup I bought some xlr's with right angle female jacks, they leave a little more room for cymbals etc.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 3, 2017 0:08:35 GMT -6
Problem with MD421's is they're hypercardioid. I've used RE20 over 2 toms and it works well. But if you've the channels, mic each. 421s also have pretty poor off-axis responce.
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Post by levon on Nov 3, 2017 0:13:21 GMT -6
With this figure 8 concept, the capsule is at about 90 degrees relative to the batter head? Trying to picture it. I was wondering about that too, can someone explain?
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Post by EmRR on Nov 3, 2017 5:22:25 GMT -6
picture it as a lighthouse throwing opposing beams of light.....
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Post by levon on Nov 3, 2017 7:04:28 GMT -6
I can picture that alright, but how do you place the mic? When the capsule is at a 90 degrees angle relative to the heads, it does not point towards the heads but rather right across them, or am I missing something?
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Post by notneeson on Nov 3, 2017 8:52:45 GMT -6
I can picture that alright, but how do you place the mic? When the capsule is at a 90 degrees angle relative to the heads, it does not point towards the heads but rather right across them, or am I missing something? Same.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 3, 2017 10:28:02 GMT -6
I love the e604 and use the clips with no issues. Look up a video of Bob Clearmountain recording drums with them. It's part of some Apogee promo videos where he starts with a couple mics only. Clearmountain is the guy who always replaces drums with samples...
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 3, 2017 10:41:47 GMT -6
picture it as a lighthouse throwing opposing beams of light..... I dunno - it seems to me that you'd be asking for phase problems, as the the two toms would be out of polarity with each other, which means any interaction with another mic would, of necessity, put one or the other tom in reversed polarity with the leakage. Wouldn't it?
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Post by subspace on Nov 3, 2017 10:46:09 GMT -6
Agreed, 421s on fat toms, 58s on skinny toms. There are exactly zero fig-8 mics I would put in front of a drummer who practices with 2 toms but wants to record with five. thud-thud-thud-pop!
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 3, 2017 12:03:26 GMT -6
Is the kit isolated? Any chance of using a Glyn Johns approach? i.e. micing the kit at more of a distance; as a single instrument rather than a conglomeration of smaller instruments? Finding myself liking that approach more these days. But no denying it's definitely a bit more involved. There's fewer mics to manage but it requires a lot more time to move mics around hunting for the sweet spots. But once you get them nailed down it's worth it. You can avoid some of the phasing issues that happen when you mic individually. I would absolutely agree that SM57 makes for a great mic on higher toms. You don't have to worry too much if they get smacked with a stick! For recordings I no longer close mic and have adopted a version of William Wittman's Glyn Johns based method. It works great! (Understand that I'm not into any of that drum replacement/sample augmenting, etc. type stuff. I go for good, natural kit sounds and this gives it to me.) The setup is this - (1) Front of kit mic, placed about 1.5 - 2 ft in front of the rack toms(s), roughly 1 foot higher the the rim(s), centered. (2) Side of kit mic (floor tom side), placed about 1.5-2 feet from the floor tom, roughly 6"-8" above the rim. (1) and (2) are roughly equidistant from the snare but it doesn't have to be exact - balance by ear. (3) snare, place at the side of the drum offset a couple of inches from the vent hole, roughly under the hi-hat and maybe 2" from the shell. Mic should be roughly centered between top and bottom, balanced by ear. This placement may seem counterintuitive at first but it gives a surprisingly natural sound and picks a good balance between heads with none of the usual polarity issues caussed by using two mics. Using a SDC with good off-axis frequency response this generally pick just the right amount of hat as well. Adjust placement for balance. (4) Kick, placed near the front of shell an inch or two from the side with the plane of the diaphragm roughly aligned with with the front edge of the shell (with no head or properly placed hole) aimed somewhat towards the center of the back head, placement adjusted by ear, or if there's a front head thern wherever it sounds right. (5) room mic. usually mono because I don't have another good stereo pair. It's essentially a modified Gly Johns with added snare and room. Of course if it's a bad drummer with no sense of balance in his playing you just get a great recording of a terrible drummer - but he probably doesn't belong in the studio anyway. Mics are: (1)&(2) Pearlman TM-1 tube LDC, (3) Neumann KM84. I used to use an AKG C451EB before I scored the 84, (4) EV RE-20, occasionally AKG D-12 (NOT D112 - I hate those) (5) Neumann U87 Ai (pre-Sennheiser), which is the only mic I have left of adequate quality. I'd really like a pair of Coles for room mics but don't have any - yet. When I adopted this setup and ditched conventional close micing my drum sould improved about 1000% and phase problems pretty much went away - setup is MUCH faster now. Recording drums close-miced always sounded a bit bit funny to me, no matter what mics I tried or how hard I worked on placement and phase issues. The sound of a drum generally doesn't really "form up" until you give it bit of distance. Stage micing for live shows is totally different, partly because I won't use my really good mics on most live shows I I do and partly because distance mics pick up way too much guitar and monitor bleed with even a moderately loud band. For the same reason I hardly ever use overheads - I really don't need any any off-axis distance mics on the guitars! Live setup is usually 1 or two rack tom mics and I'm not shy about splitting a mic between toms if necessary. If so I usually try to have at least 6", up to a maximum of a foot above the drums to get something resembling a decent balance between the pair, Floor tom mic - again if there are two floors I'll often split the mic, depending on what I have to work with. Snare is usually a Beyer M201. If one is available and its a punk gig with potentionally wild bashers for drummers I'll use an EV 664 "Buchanan Hammer". I won't use a 57 on snare, I've had too many broken. If necessary I will use a 58 instead*. Kick is usually an RE-20 or EV N/D 868. all tom mics are usually Sennheiser MD421s (live toms is about the only use I have for 421s these days), sometimes I'll use an 868 on floor. Sometimes I'll use SM 56s or 57s on racks but I don't like to because I don't think they sound all that great and I don't much appreciate having the front grills whacked off and lost by wild drummers (who never pay for broken mics). If I'm having to deal with a (usually metal) drummer with a forest of cymbals riding low over the toms I'll use those Sennheiser e609s with a flat form factor like an old MD409 (which I used to use back in the day when they were still available) because they're generally pretty easy to sneak in between the cymbal and the drum. and it's still usually possible to more or less cover 2 drums with 1 mic if you really have to. They're really not that great a mic (but not really worse than a 57) but they don't get in the way! If I really have to I'll put an M201 on hat, or a 57 in a pinch, being careful to keep it well away from the drummer. Back when I was doing a lot of metal bands with monster kits I was able to get good coverage of a very large kit with somewhat limited channel count by doubling drums on a mic (1 mic for a rack of 3 roto-toms, miced from below) and, if necessary, using a Y on the kicks. But I would NEVER use a setup like that for studio recording I also used to have a trick mic stand for singing drummers based on an idea I stole from Don R's band. Still have one, actually. * - I used to have a Frankenstein snare mic that consisted of a 57 with the cartrige guts removed from the original shell and mounted in the shell of an old 58 to give me mounting threads for a ball. I had a old beat up ball that I'd stripped all the foam out of and knocked out most of the dents, which I used to protect the from of the 57 cartridge from wild snare hits. Not quite a durable as a 664 but not bad, much more rugged than a stock 57.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 3, 2017 12:10:32 GMT -6
Agreed, 421s on fat toms, 58s on skinny toms. There are exactly zero fig-8 mics I would put in front of a drummer who practices with 2 toms but wants to record with five. thud-thud-thud-pop! Beyer M-201s are MUCH better on small toms than any Shure SM series. And they're really great for micing from inside the drum as well. There are, in fact, a few figure-8 mics I'd put in front of such a drummer. Seems like as good a method as any for disposing of them. (these are mics I probably would not want to put anywhere else..... )
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 3, 2017 12:28:02 GMT -6
Try some Sennheiser e604's. They're pretty decent tom mics and easier to position than 421's, also cheaper. But make sure to use stands as the rim clips really limit your mic placement. I have one one 604 that I picked up on sale cheap to try out. For awhile I was using it quite a bit on snare and small toms. I really dislike the limited placemant options (too damn close to the head) and the way the mic bobs up and down evey time the drum gets hit, which has GOTTA cause some degree of modulation of the signal. And they're really pretty flimsy - the front grill fell out of mine and got lost pretty quicly, leaving the front of the capsule totally exposed. And a few times the clip has come loose from the drum and dropped the mic on the floor in the middle of a set. An inexpensive Sennheiser mic made in the last, say, 15 years is generally a really cheaply made mic IMO. There are some clip-ons (which I haven't used) from other manufacturers that are likely significantly better - I'm talking about the ones that incorporate a little gooseneck in the clip so positioning is more versatile and you can get a bit more distance from the head.
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Post by stormymondays on Nov 3, 2017 12:34:51 GMT -6
I love the e604 and use the clips with no issues. Look up a video of Bob Clearmountain recording drums with them. It's part of some Apogee promo videos where he starts with a couple mics only. Clearmountain is the guy who always replaces drums with samples... Here's the video for reference:
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Post by Guitar on Nov 3, 2017 12:50:44 GMT -6
I use the e604 on my rack toms, clipped on. I manually clip out all the bleed in the DAW leaving only the exact times the toms are being played. Takes about 5 minutes for a 3 minute song with three toms. I really like these mics. I've seen Nigel Godrich, my #1 guy using these on Radiohead in studio. If you have extra cash, I believe the e904 to just sound that much more clear in the high end. It's a subtle difference though.
I think for a big modern rock sound, you're going to want those close mics.
I like simpler setups like John's too but maybe for music that's not quite as 'straight ahead' I mean it's just a drum sound but you do have to make a choice. Vibey vs in your face, whatever you want to call it.
The floor tom I treat as a bass instrument, and would use a larger mic there. Most of the time a D112 for me. Sounds thunderous. I'm sure an MD421 would be great.
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Post by notneeson on Nov 3, 2017 12:56:14 GMT -6
Agreed, 421s on fat toms, 58s on skinny toms. There are exactly zero fig-8 mics I would put in front of a drummer who practices with 2 toms but wants to record with five. thud-thud-thud-pop! Beyer M-201s are MUCH better on small toms than any Shure SM series. And they're really great for micing from inside the drum as well. There are, in fact, a few figure-8 mics I'd put in front of such a drummer. Seems like as good a method as any for disposing of them. (these are mics I probably would not want to put anywhere else..... ) Beyer M-201s are great on anything a 57 is known for. Sharkbite in Oakland has a bunch.
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Post by Tbone81 on Nov 3, 2017 13:19:52 GMT -6
Try some Sennheiser e604's. They're pretty decent tom mics and easier to position than 421's, also cheaper. But make sure to use stands as the rim clips really limit your mic placement. I have one one 604 that I picked up on sale cheap to try out. For awhile I was using it quite a bit on snare and small toms. I really dislike the limited placemant options (too damn close to the head) and the way the mic bobs up and down evey time the drum gets, which has GOTTA cause some degree of modulation of the signal. And they're really pretty flimsy - the front grill fell out of mine and got lost pretty quicly, leaving the front of the capsule totally exposed. And a few times the clip has come loose from the drum and dropped the mic on the floor in the middle of a set. An inexpensive Sennheiser mic made in the last, say, 15 years is generally a really cheaply made mic IMO. There are some clip-ons (which I haven't used) from other manufacturers that are likely significantly better - I'm talking about the ones that incorporate a little gooseneck in the clip so positioning is more versatile and you can get a bit more distance from the head. I'll agree that there are better mics out there, but mine have held up well and are durable enough. They've taken a few hits from wild drum sticks and are no worse for wear. I think they sound pretty good too, especially considering they can be found cheap. Got 3 them used, with an e609 and 2 clip on lav mics for $300, it was a good score.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 3, 2017 13:37:10 GMT -6
The floor tom I treat as a bass instrument, and would use a larger mic there. Most of the time a D112 for me. Sounds thunderous. I'm sure an MD421 would be great. I totally agree about treating the FT as a bass instrument if micing it separately, but I wouldn't want a D112 there (I don't even like them for kicks.) I was really pissed off (and still am) when AKG discontinued the D12E (one of my favorite mics) and replaced it with the crappy D112. (which is also one of the most funny looking, ugly mics ever made.) The D112 is really a piss-poor bass instrument mic when you get right down to it. I certainly wouldn't want one on floor because of the obnoxious baked-in "click". I generally dislike mics with EQ baked in at the factory (more often than not my idea of good EQ on a given source is not the same as of the labcoat at the factory) and the D112 has pretty extreme baked in EQ that does match my idea of good EQ on much on anything. And I've got a perfectly serviceable EQ section on my console. My idea idea of a great speed metal kick sound is Phil "Philthy Animal"l Taylor from Motorhead - no obnoxious click but you can certainly hear the kicks - right up front and in your face - and they really hit you in the chest in a way that the stereotyped "modern metal" kick sounds just..... don't. I do love the D12 on floor, but I don't take mine to live gigs anymore - can't get 'em serviced if they're damaged and despite the the bulky, solid looking appearance they're really somewhat fragile. Maybe the new owners of what was AKG Austria will see fit to reintroduce the real D12 design now that Harman's out of the way. The Electrovoice N/D868 is a a good solid kick mic that is also useful for other lower register sources. While it's a little bit enhanced for LF sources they didn't overdo it to the point where it smears its ineradicable muddy footprints over anything it touches like many mics sold as "kick mics" these days. It's also not excessively expensive and fairly rugged.
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Post by Guitar on Nov 3, 2017 13:42:59 GMT -6
The floor tom I treat as a bass instrument, and would use a larger mic there. Most of the time a D112 for me. Sounds thunderous. I'm sure an MD421 would be great. I totally agree about treating the FT as a bass instrument if micing it separately, but I wouldn't want a D112 there (I don't even like them for kicks.) I was really pissed off (and still am) when AKG discontinued the D12E (one of my favorite mics) and replaced it with the crappy D112. (which is also one of the most funny looking, ugly mics ever made.) The D112 is really a piss-poor bass instrument mic when you get right down to it. I certainly wouldn't want one on floor because of the obnoxious baked-in "click". I generally dislike mics with EQ baked in at the factory (more often than not my idea of good EQ on a given source is not the same as of the labcoat at the factory) and the D112 has pretty extreme baked in EQ that does match my idea of good EQ on much on anything. And I've got a perfectly serviceable EQ section on my console. My idea idea of a great speed metal kick sound is Phil "Philthy Animal"l Taylor from Motorhead - no obnoxious click but you can certainly hear the kicks - right up front and in your face - and they really hit you in the chest in a way that the stereotyped "modern metal" kick sounds just..... don't. I do love the D12 on floor, but I don't take mine to live gigs anymore - can't get 'em serviced if they're damaged and despite the the bulky, solid looking appearance they're really somewhat fragile. Maybe the new owners of what was AKG Austria will see fit to reintroduce the real D12 design now that Harman's out of the way. The Electrovoice N/D868 is a a good solid kick mic that is also useful for other lower register sources. While it's a little bit enhanced for LF sources they didn't overdo it to the point where it smears its ineradicable muddy footprints over anything it touches like many mics sold as "kick mics" these days. It's also not excessively expensive and fairly rugged. I agree about the N/D868 from EV. I have one and right now it lives outside my kick. That was one of the first "good" microphones I bought 11 years ago when transitioning out of low end gear. I remember being awe-struck at "my" kick drum sound with my first band's recordings. I agree that it's a little less baked than other kick mics. The curves are more gentle and it sounds bassy and expensive at the same time. If I had a second one, I'd probably stick it on the floor tom. My M88TG is also sitting unused right now. Might need to stick it inside the kick hole or on the floor tom..... by the way the M88TG Beyer is another fantastic tom/low end frequency microphone.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 3, 2017 13:43:09 GMT -6
Beyer M-201s are MUCH better on small toms than any Shure SM series. And they're really great for micing from inside the drum as well. There are, in fact, a few figure-8 mics I'd put in front of such a drummer. Seems like as good a method as any for disposing of them. (these are mics I probably would not want to put anywhere else..... ) Beyer M-201s are great on anything a 57 is known for. Sharkbite in Oakland has a bunch. Not quite. They're not very good at having poor off-axis response that will make your room tone sound like sh!t and they're really a poor choice for crappy overall sound.... I got turned on to the 201 when working for Bill Graham's FM Productions sound dept and have loved them ever since.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 3, 2017 13:47:22 GMT -6
My M88TG is also sitting unused right now. Might need to stick it inside the kick hole or on the floor tom..... by the way the M88TG Beyer is another fantastic tom/low end frequency microphone. I have an M88 and agree it does great on kick, bass, etc, but mine never gets used for any of that. That's because it's my vocal mic for live performance and I currently only have the one.
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Post by EmRR on Nov 3, 2017 16:00:57 GMT -6
picture it as a lighthouse throwing opposing beams of light..... I dunno - it seems to me that you'd be asking for phase problems, as the the two toms would be out of polarity with each other, which means any interaction with another mic would, of necessity, put one or the other tom in reversed polarity with the leakage. Wouldn't it? I haven't heard it make a phase problem so far.
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Post by spindrift on Nov 3, 2017 18:16:24 GMT -6
M88 is my go to Floor Tom mic, when I’m out of MK67s
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