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Post by adamjbrass on May 2, 2018 7:58:43 GMT -6
I will try it out and report my findings. Of course, the Rep pushing it to me, was super gushy about it. Like he is with everything he reps.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,940
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Post by ericn on May 2, 2018 13:08:36 GMT -6
I will try it out and report my findings. Of course, the Rep pushing it to me, was super gushy about it. Like he is with everything he reps. Hey he’s got to work for that 7%😎
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Post by adamjbrass on May 2, 2018 13:14:34 GMT -6
I will try it out and report my findings. Of course, the Rep pushing it to me, was super gushy about it. Like he is with everything he reps. Hey he’s got to work for that 7%😎 What a life! #pimping
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Post by the other mark williams on May 2, 2018 21:59:08 GMT -6
I just sold my VMS a few days ago. For a ridiculous number of reasons, it had sat unopened on the floor of my studio for over a year-and-a-half. During the course of that year-and-a-half, I went from: - being excited about its possibilities
- to becoming a bit more skeptical
- to noticing commonalities in almost all of the online files and shootouts
- to deciding I didn't really like what I was hearing in these shootouts
- to getting increasingly disappointed with the proprietor's engagement at the purple site with people who disagree with him
- to deciding I really, really wanted to sell it
I'm actually quite relieved to have moved it to a new home. I think it's probably wonderful tech that really fits the working style of some people. An awful lot of recording is done on the fly these days, in makeshift living rooms and lofts. I can certainly see the appeal of having one mic that's not terribly expensive, but is versatile enough to work in a variety of settings, song styles, and with a lot of different singers. I just decided that I didn't want to work that way, and the top end of the mic was really starting to grate on me. The capsule just doesn't seem to "hold together" or self-compress the way a really good capsule does. At least in the examples I've listened to. Vincent R. , your video where you compared the FG-47 to other mics was really, really well done. If I hadn't already decided to sell at that point, your video would've closed the deal for me. I spent about two days thinking I might try the Antelope mic, but then I saw a video where they explained that they used an edge-terminated capsule because an edge-terminated capsule is superior to a center-terminated capsule. If I remember correctly (and I may not...), the implication was that the termination wire obscures the capsule in a center-termination. At that point, I decided I didn't want to buy that one, either. So I put down some money on the upcoming Stam 67.
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Post by Vincent R. on May 5, 2018 9:51:51 GMT -6
the other mark williams, I'm glad it helped out. If it makes you feel better, I had buyers remorse from the moment I plugged it in. I still had my Peluso 2247SE which people in the VMS discussion on the purple site had said the VMS killed. I also had my custom Advanced Audio CM67LE with vintage mode. I immediately realized their FG67 was based on a modded U67, something Steven had neglected to disclose when selling the VMS, which was not what I wanted or was looking for. Then I put it against the Peluso and it was no contest. The 2247SE, though brighter had the bigger than life sound I expected from a U47 type mic. The FG47 did not. I have a shootout I never released with the FG47 next to Advanced Audio's CM48T and a FleA47. jtc111 and I both agreed the CM48T didn't really sound like a U48, but had it's own more modern character that was really nice and for $599 would make a ton of people happy. Against the FleA it was not contest. The FleA was bigger than life, rich sounding, with a 3D quality you get from real pro mics. The FG47 was U47ish, but dull, not as 3D, and had that same harsh capsule frequency thing all the emulations have. I also could not get the system to work on my computer so I could listen to the emulations while recording. I always needed to record flat and use the emulations afterward. Probably my computer's fault, as it was old and slightly below what they recommended for the minimum requirements (Actually when I pre-ordered it the minimum requirements were what my computer had. By the time it shipped Slate had posted new minimum requirements). I used it for about 8 months. Then I sold it for the BLUE Bottle Rocket Stage II, which I have found to be a much better mic that gives me the same sort of thing; a mic that has a bunch of different sonic options. What I did like about the VMS is it saved prep time. I did not need to worry about the preamp or microphone if someone new came into the studio. That said, over the last couple of years I also learned my gear, my mics, and my aesthetic pretty well and have a pretty good idea what to use these days.
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Post by drsax on Jan 2, 2019 19:23:39 GMT -6
After a 2 day battle mixing a song where the artist used a Slate VMS Mic, my previous opinions have been beyond confirmed. It’s a saxophone lead. They recorded the rest of their album on high end condenser mics, and one song on the VMS. And it was recorded by an experienced engineer. No issues with the recording or position or settings. It’s the mic that is the issue. The artist totally regrets using the VMS on this one song and I’ve been hired to try to fix the mix that used the VMS. The VMS sounds completely horrid against the tracks recorded on higher end mics. This is one of the toughest mixing tasks I’ve ever been given. I will make it right in the mix, I’m determined. But it reminds me of many tracks I’ve fought before that were recorded with the TLM103. Except this is worse. It’s bad enough that I feel compelled to resurrect this older thread and post about it. Personally I’ll be staying a long way away from the VMS. Hopefully this will be my last encounter with a track recorded on this mic.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 2, 2019 19:29:39 GMT -6
After a 2 day battle mixing a song where the artist used a Slate VMS Mic, my previous opinions have been beyond confirmed. It’s a saxophone lead. They recorded the rest of their album on high end condenser mics, and one song on the VMS. And it was recorded by an experienced engineer. No issues with the recording or position or settings. It’s the mic that is the issue. The artist totally regrets using the VMS on this one song and I’ve been hired to try to fix the mix that used the VMS. The VMS sounds completely horrid against the tracks recorded on higher end mics. This is one of the toughest mixing tasks I’ve ever been given. I will make it right in the mix, I’m determined. But it reminds me of many tracks I’ve fought before that were recorded with the TLM103. Except this is worse. It’s bad enough that I feel compelled to resurrect this older thread and post about it. Personally I’ll be staying a long way away from the VMS. Hopefully this will be my last encounter with a track recorded on this mic. Yikes, sounds like a not-very-fun job. What does the Zulu do to the VMS track? Might it calm down the VMS's top end a bit?
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Post by drsax on Jan 2, 2019 19:58:56 GMT -6
After a 2 day battle mixing a song where the artist used a Slate VMS Mic, my previous opinions have been beyond confirmed. It’s a saxophone lead. They recorded the rest of their album on high end condenser mics, and one song on the VMS. And it was recorded by an experienced engineer. No issues with the recording or position or settings. It’s the mic that is the issue. The artist totally regrets using the VMS on this one song and I’ve been hired to try to fix the mix that used the VMS. The VMS sounds completely horrid against the tracks recorded on higher end mics. This is one of the toughest mixing tasks I’ve ever been given. I will make it right in the mix, I’m determined. But it reminds me of many tracks I’ve fought before that were recorded with the TLM103. Except this is worse. It’s bad enough that I feel compelled to resurrect this older thread and post about it. Personally I’ll be staying a long way away from the VMS. Hopefully this will be my last encounter with a track recorded on this mic. Yikes, sounds like a not-very-fun job. What does the Zulu do to the VMS track? Might it calm down the VMS's top end a bit? here’s how bad it was... I ran it thru three seperate Zulu channels, the Silver bullet, and a couple other pieces of Outboard including Outboard EQ... now finalizing with some surgical EQ in the box. Whew... this is a beast of a track to fix. No VMS love here. But thank God for my Zulus and the SB!!
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 2, 2019 20:17:18 GMT -6
Sheesh.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 2, 2019 21:07:54 GMT -6
Yikes, sounds like a not-very-fun job. What does the Zulu do to the VMS track? Might it calm down the VMS's top end a bit? here’s how bad it was... I ran it thru three seperate Zulu channels, the Silver bullet, and a couple other pieces of Outboard including Outboard EQ... now finalizing with some surgical EQ in the box. Whew... this is a beast of a track to fix. No VMS love here. But thank God for my Zulus and the SB!! Holy smokes.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 2, 2019 21:26:53 GMT -6
I'm almost done with another shoot out that I filmed a while back. A friend with the VMS helped me out by running my raw tracks through the emulations. I think there are only 3 emulations I really liked; FG12, FG800M, and this new FG47 MKII. That said, it still doesn't have the depth of the FleA 47 I put it next to. Video is almost done.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jan 2, 2019 21:32:48 GMT -6
I’ve never tried a mic modeler, VMS or otherwise, but my problem with the idea of it all is that I want less options, not more, and certainly not infinite options. I find I’m easily distracted with “options” and get lost trying decide witch compressor sounds best, which mic pre is the most euphoric etc. when really, if you have quality gear, it doesn’t matter a whole lot. At some point it just gets in the way of making good music.
I realize everyone’s workflow is different, so I don’t begrudge others who feel different. But for me, I can’t buy into systems like this, that offer you everything at your fingertips. I’d rather have a few, really great mics, for specific purposes, and be done with it.
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Post by drbill on Jan 2, 2019 21:40:50 GMT -6
Less options is often where creativity begins....
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Post by roundbadge on Jan 2, 2019 22:22:27 GMT -6
After a 2 day battle mixing a song where the artist used a Slate VMS Mic, my previous opinions have been beyond confirmed. It’s a saxophone lead. They recorded the rest of their album on high end condenser mics, and one song on the VMS. And it was recorded by an experienced engineer. No issues with the recording or position or settings. It’s the mic that is the issue. The artist totally regrets using the VMS on this one song and I’ve been hired to try to fix the mix that used the VMS. The VMS sounds completely horrid against the tracks recorded on higher end mics. This is one of the toughest mixing tasks I’ve ever been given. I will make it right in the mix, I’m determined. But it reminds me of many tracks I’ve fought before that were recorded with the TLM103. Except this is worse. It’s bad enough that I feel compelled to resurrect this older thread and post about it. Personally I’ll be staying a long way away from the VMS. Hopefully this will be my last encounter with a track recorded on this mic. did you try the oek sound plug ins?.super helpful for turd polishing.
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Post by svart on Jan 2, 2019 22:35:28 GMT -6
Is mix modelling still a thing? Seemed like the buzz died off pretty quickly..
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Post by jtc111 on Jan 2, 2019 23:15:28 GMT -6
Another reason I'm not a fan of this kind of tech...
Our gear essentially breaks down into two major categories: hardware and software. My hardware consists of microphones, preamps, and compressors. I know that no matter what else changes, my hardware is never going to be obsolete in my lifetime. In 30 years, those things will still work ...they may require a little maintenance along the way, but they'll still work. All the other stuff ...the software... has a shelf life and I have no idea how long that shelf life is. We buy the software because it's relatively cheap. If the eq plugin I spent $100 on becomes unusable at some point, I'm not out much money. But now we're seeing hardware that is software dependent. So which category does that fall into? To my thinking, it's still software since the functionality of the hardware is dependent on the software. While I may not be bothered by the loss of a plugin that I paid $100 for, I'd be kind of pissed if I spent $1-2K on a VMS type system and it became unusable for whatever reason (company folds, new system introduced and support ends for the old, etc.). Software dependent hardware will become obsolete and lose much of its resale value should that happen. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure every piece of gear I bought secondhand could be sold today without a loss, and my Flea 47, which I bought new, I could actually make a few bucks on if I sold it (not that I'm ever selling it).
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Post by sirthought on Jan 3, 2019 4:01:39 GMT -6
After a 2 day battle mixing a song where the artist used a Slate VMS Mic, my previous opinions have been beyond confirmed. ... Hopefully this will be my last encounter with a track recorded on this mic. Curious if you've worked with the Townsend or Antelope modeling mics?
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Post by sirthought on Jan 3, 2019 4:22:50 GMT -6
Another reason I'm not a fan of this kind of tech... Our gear essentially breaks down into two major categories: hardware and software. My hardware consists of microphones, preamps, and compressors. I know that no matter what else changes, my hardware is never going to be obsolete in my lifetime. In 30 years, those things will still work ...they may require a little maintenance along the way, but they'll still work. All the other stuff ...the software... has a shelf life and I have no idea how long that shelf life is. We buy the software because it's relatively cheap. If the eq plugin I spent $100 on becomes unusable at some point, I'm not out much money. But now we're seeing hardware that is software dependent. So which category does that fall into? To my thinking, it's still software since the functionality of the hardware is dependent on the software. While I may not be bothered by the loss of a plugin that I paid $100 for, I'd be kind of pissed if I spent $1-2K on a VMS type system and it became unusable for whatever reason (company folds, new system introduced and support ends for the old, etc.). Software dependent hardware will become obsolete and lose much of its resale value should that happen. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure every piece of gear I bought secondhand could be sold today without a loss, and my Flea 47, which I bought new, I could actually make a few bucks on if I sold it (not that I'm ever selling it). My guess is the biggest flaw with the Slate VMS product is still the mic itself. The software used is not all that different than another mix engineer's use of some sort of dynamics and EQ treatment. Improve the mic itself and you're likely going to be happier. If you don't like the modeling though, there's several others to try. I don't have one of these, but I've been considering the Sphere L22. A lot of the people who own them say they like the mic's sound just by itself. But the concern is real over whether a change in Apple's OS or a thunderbolt system or Apollo whatever — does that mean Townsend might not support that product any longer? The same crap has happened with companies like ProTools and Apogee. But if you do like the mic, there is a pro/con balance point, because getting the funds to buy one Flea 47 means a lifetime on the sidelines (for me) when I could be recording music with a Sphere and still have options for other mic sounds. Yeah, I could invest in a nicer boutique clone mic for less, but even if they are great components, you won't get your investment back without a bigger brand name. Finding buyers for that can be hit or miss. Just look at how long some products are listed on Reverb. Also...it must be nice to be at a place where losing a $100 production tool isn't viewed as a big loss. Cheers to you.
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Post by drsax on Jan 3, 2019 9:01:04 GMT -6
I’ve never tried a mic modeler, VMS or otherwise, but my problem with the idea of it all is that I want less options, not more, and certainly not infinite options. I find I’m easily distracted with “options” and get lost trying decide witch compressornalunds best, which mic pre is the most euphoric etc. when really, if you have quality gear, it doesn’t matter a whole lot. At some point it just gets in the way of making good music. I realize everyone’s workflow is different, so I don’t begrudge others who feel different. But for me, I can’t buy into systems like this, that offer you everything at your fingertips. I’d rather a a few, really great mics, for specific purposes, and be done with it. Well said man. And I agree!
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Post by drsax on Jan 3, 2019 9:04:47 GMT -6
After a 2 day battle mixing a song where the artist used a Slate VMS Mic, my previous opinions have been beyond confirmed. It’s a saxophone lead. They recorded the rest of their album on high end condenser mics, and one song on the VMS. And it was recorded by an experienced engineer. No issues with the recording or position or settings. It’s the mic that is the issue. The artist totally regrets using the VMS on this one song and I’ve been hired to try to fix the mix that used the VMS. The VMS sounds completely horrid against the tracks recorded on higher end mics. This is one of the toughest mixing tasks I’ve ever been given. I will make it right in the mix, I’m determined. But it reminds me of many tracks I’ve fought before that were recorded with the TLM103. Except this is worse. It’s bad enough that I feel compelled to resurrect this older thread and post about it. Personally I’ll be staying a long way away from the VMS. Hopefully this will be my last encounter with a track recorded on this mic. did you try the oek sound plug ins?.super helpful for turd polishing. thanks for the heads up, I’ll have to check them out. I have a lots of great Outboard and tons of great plugs. I used more rounds of conversion, more Outboard and more plugs on this one track than I’ve ever used before, lol, whew. I’ll check out the oek plugs
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Post by drsax on Jan 3, 2019 9:07:19 GMT -6
Is mix modelling still a thing? Seemed like the buzz died off pretty quickly.. I’ve bumped into several studio guys who recently purchased the VMS saying it was “cool”. So I guess the fad hasn’t ended. The concept may be cool, but this track definitely isn’t, lol
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Post by drsax on Jan 3, 2019 9:08:41 GMT -6
Another reason I'm not a fan of this kind of tech... Our gear essentially breaks down into two major categories: hardware and software. My hardware consists of microphones, preamps, and compressors. I know that no matter what else changes, my hardware is never going to be obsolete in my lifetime. In 30 years, those things will still work ...they may require a little maintenance along the way, but they'll still work. All the other stuff ...the software... has a shelf life and I have no idea how long that shelf life is. We buy the software because it's relatively cheap. If the eq plugin I spent $100 on becomes unusable at some point, I'm not out much money. But now we're seeing hardware that is software dependent. So which category does that fall into? To my thinking, it's still software since the functionality of the hardware is dependent on the software. While I may not be bothered by the loss of a plugin that I paid $100 for, I'd be kind of pissed if I spent $1-2K on a VMS type system and it became unusable for whatever reason (company folds, new system introduced and support ends for the old, etc.). Software dependent hardware will become obsolete and lose much of its resale value should that happen. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure every piece of gear I bought secondhand could be sold today without a loss, and my Flea 47, which I bought new, I could actually make a few bucks on if I sold it (not that I'm ever selling it). amen to this
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Post by drsax on Jan 3, 2019 9:11:37 GMT -6
After a 2 day battle mixing a song where the artist used a Slate VMS Mic, my previous opinions have been beyond confirmed. ... Hopefully this will be my last encounter with a track recorded on this mic. Curious if you've worked with the Townsend or Antelope modeling mics? no I haven’t used those before. I do have the almost all the UAD plugs and see the Townsend modeling plugs on UA’s site. Have you tried either of those? I have plenty of great reliable mic choices here though and that has kept me from really wanting a mic modeler. And I agree, I suspect the VMS harshness is the mic, because the issues I’m fighting to reverse are baked into the sound... like the source is the issue
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Post by jtc111 on Jan 3, 2019 11:18:09 GMT -6
My guess is the biggest flaw with the Slate VMS product is still the mic itself. The software used is not all that different than another mix engineer's use of some sort of dynamics and EQ treatment. Improve the mic itself and you're likely going to be happier. If you don't like the modeling though, there's several others to try. I don't have one of these, but I've been considering the Sphere L22. A lot of the people who own them say they like the mic's sound just by itself. But the concern is real over whether a change in Apple's OS or a thunderbolt system or Apollo whatever — does that mean Townsend might not support that product any longer? The same crap has happened with companies like ProTools and Apogee. But if you do like the mic, there is a pro/con balance point, because getting the funds to buy one Flea 47 means a lifetime on the sidelines (for me) when I could be recording music with a Sphere and still have options for other mic sounds. Yeah, I could invest in a nicer boutique clone mic for less, but even if they are great components, you won't get your investment back without a bigger brand name. Finding buyers for that can be hit or miss. Just look at how long some products are listed on Reverb. Also...it must be nice to be at a place where losing a $100 production tool isn't viewed as a big loss. Cheers to you. My reservations are not solely with the Slate VMS. That's the system I've heard samples from more than any other. As I said in my previous post, I don't like the dependency on software that may stop being updated at some point and become obsolete, but that's not my only reason. The VMS just sound awful to my ears. Vincent R. has done a bunch of vocal shootouts that have involved the VMS. I don't think he's put videos up for all of them, but I think I've heard all of them. And whether he's presented them to me labeled or blind, I've always picked the VMS as the worst of the bunch. I understand the "value" argument and that you get a bunch of flavors for your money but if the flavors are all bad, what good are they? In Vinny's shootouts that included the VMS there were always some Advanced Audio mics in the mix. Those mics beat the VMS sound quality pretty handily, imo. Admittedly, a Flea is going to be out of reach for a lot of people but the AA offerings are much more affordable and have much better sound quality than the VMS. Given the choice between owning a couple of those AA mics or the VMS system, I'll take the AA mics in a heartbeat. Better sound quality and fewer choices is better than inferior sound quality and more choices. The one caveat is this: if a person really has absolutely no sense of what mic might be best for them personally, the VMS might be helpful in pointing them in a direction. I say "might" because it also could point them in the wrong direction since they're relying on their own inexperienced ears to make that determination. I'm an example of that. Way back in the day I bought the Antares Mic Modeler plugin when it was first introduced. It was when I had little money to spend and my thinking then was the same as I see folks saying now: more choices, yada yada yada. My favorite setting using that plugin was the C12, so I thought that was the mic I was after in the long run, or at least something close to it. Skip ahead some years (and enough bad purchases to realize my instincts weren't all that great) I decided it might be best to seek some opinions. Using a simple rough demo of just me and my guitar, I made a thread over at the purple palace and asked folks to give a listen to my voice and tell me what mic they'd reach for first if I walked into their studio. I got a decent number of replies and most of them answered with a mic in the 47 family. At the time, a 47 wasn't even on my radar but it was absolutely the right advice. So I guess that's the caveat to my caveat.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 3, 2019 14:32:41 GMT -6
Unfortunately jtc111 is right. I find the VMS emulations to be hit or miss. Most miss the mark. I do think they have gotten better with each release. If you are recording any vocals with some warmth in it the differences become very apparent. If your recording someone whispering into the microphone it may not be as bad.
Classic Tubes 1: -FG47 is 2d and thin. Also a bit bright and boring. My Peluso 2247 SE was a bit brighter than this emulation, but was so much more 3D.
-FG800 is simply bright. If that's what a C800G sounds like then I'll never get the craze.
-FG251 has no low end at all. It sounds like there is a high pass filter on it. My Advanced Audio CM251 literally wiped the floor with this emulation.
Classic Tubes 2: -FGM7 I never really used. I rarely use dynamics for my work and the added tube stage means it's not really an emulation of an SM7 at all.
-FG269 is like the FG251 had no low end. I've used an M269 and had the RMS 269 in my studio most of this year. The low end is missing.
-FG67 was advertised as the rich stock U67 until many engineers including myself called Steven out on it and he admitted it was a modded U67. I had bought the mic when they announced this emulation.
-FG800M is much better than the original with a bit more low mids and low end in general. This emulation won a few shootouts on my brother's voice. He's a heck of an R&B singer with a crazy falsetto range. I was also able to throw this emulation onto a recording made by a client of mine. They had recorded their vocals on a cheap MXL mic which sounded like crap. I did some corrective EQ and added the emulation and it really saved their recording.
-FG12 was my favorite of the bunch. It wasn't as bright as my CM12 and had a big even low end. When paired with the FG76 preamp this gave a really nice C12ish sound. I also loved to throw it on a virtual piano I had on the close mics. It did something really nice on that. I knew the VI was recorded with a pair of R0DE NT5s, but when I tossed this emulation on to it it really came alive.
Classic Tubes 3: I've only actually heard 2 of these emulations. Both are in my upcoming video.
-FG49 gets them in the vicinity of the Advanced Audio CM49. The FG49 has a bit more mid range and is again a bit more 2D than the real mic. Both are noticibly brighter and lack the low mids and low end of my FleA 49 which is 3D in spades.
-FG47 MKII took me by surprise. It actually sounds good. When you hear it next to Jim's FleA 47 you'll hear how the FleA reaches both lower and higher and is just much more smooth. Still, this emulation surprised me and I'm willing to admit it.
I just need to do a voice over for the video and then I can edit it, which won't take more than a few hours. Hopefully I'll get part I out by the end of next week.
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