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Post by mrholmes on Aug 31, 2017 8:27:24 GMT -6
Good advise, I forgot to change the Logic Drummer region to a Midi region to check if some notes where at the exact same velocity. And to my surprise there where a lot of. Lesson learned .... Logic Drummer needs some help to make it better. Happy again thanks for your help.... Make sure the left hand (snare backbeat hand) is behaving properly, i.e.: some ghost notes double hits and such and also make sure hats and rides aren't playing when the right hand would be busy doing other things. That is to my surprise very good solved with logic drummer. This algo ads nice ghost notes and leaves the HH out when palying fills etc. Programming the whole song with drums never has been faster than ever before, special the logic drums seem to be premixed pretty good. I have just the bad habit from my early years that I am shy when it comes to mix drums. I think it now sounds pretty good maybe not real as hell but so good that a drummer friend asked if it was palyed real, - that proofs he was in doubt. I appreciate your andivse Noah - thanks a lot.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 31, 2017 8:46:26 GMT -6
I've used Superior Drummer for almost five years. I'm way too involved with other things, so I've avoided learning how best to optimize it. I find that the main issue is snare samples. No matter what I've tried, they're just too hard too often. Let's say I need the drums to lay back a bit for the second verse, I want the same snare sound, but relaxed just a little, volume and velocity changes help a little but honestly don't work. It's possible someone more familiar with SD and the programming potential could fix it, but I'm not sure it can be fixed.
Still, seven out of ten tracks on my next record will have SD drums. I wish it was zero out of ten, but all the factors involved prevented me from going that way. I will next time.
Popmann, I understand how someone might see all Punks as posers, but you're wrong. I was there, part of making that happen, and the people I knew and worked with and played with were in fact, being so completely themselves, it undermined the entire fake music business for a while.
The sound of those pop/punk bands is basically Herman's Hermits with loud fake rock guitar.
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 31, 2017 10:56:03 GMT -6
I've used Superior Drummer for almost five years. I'm way too involved with other things, so I've avoided learning how best to optimize it. I find that the main issue is snare samples. No matter what I've tried, they're just too hard too often. Let's say I need the drums to lay back a bit for the second verse, I want the same snare sound, but relaxed just a little, volume and velocity changes help a little but honestly don't work. It's possible someone more familiar with SD and the programming potential could fix it, but I'm not sure it can be fixed. Still, seven out of ten tracks on my next record will have SD drums. I wish it was zero out of ten, but all the factors involved prevented me from going that way. I will next time. Popmann, I understand how someone might see all Punks as posers, but you're wrong. I was there, part of making that happen, and the people I knew and worked with and played with were in fact, being so completely themselves, it undermined the entire fake music business for a while. The sound of those pop/punk bands is basically Herman's Hermits with loud fake rock guitar. Martin once again start to use Logics Drummer to do the hard part of the work. The rest is up to taste, its just to easy with logic drummer to create drums with nice variation and fills etc.
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Post by svart on Aug 31, 2017 11:18:58 GMT -6
One of my faves in the last bunch of years. That's good.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 31, 2017 12:26:46 GMT -6
Jesus christ, with all the effort it takes to make fake drums convincing, you might as well learn to play real drums. It's never really convincing. A computer moving hits by a random amount is nothing like what a real drummer does. Drummers don't randomly hit off beat, in my experience - and I've played with enough bad drummers to know. They're always off in a particular direction or way, it's never really random. That's the whole problem with computer "humanizing" features - humans aren't really random or even pseudo-random. "Rushing or dragging? WERE YOU RUSHING OR WERE YOU DRAGGING?"
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 31, 2017 12:32:25 GMT -6
C'mon....punks were AWLAYS posers. Obviously you weren't there.
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Post by schmalzy on Aug 31, 2017 15:18:58 GMT -6
One of my faves in the last bunch of years. That's good. I agree. Both that record and their follow-up were killer. Not everything on those records was as aggressive as that one, but it's all pretty schnazzy. A little more musical wandering, a little more vocals, a little more crazy drums - it's all throughout their two full-lengths. I've had SO MANY bands come to me saying "we love this and want to sound like this." I have to tell them that, to me, it just sounds like rad musicians playing their hearts out like their lives depend on it. The sonics vary from fine to good, but the attitude and feel is overflowing. THAT's what I love most about their two records.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 31, 2017 20:23:42 GMT -6
You don't think that nails the modern pop punk sound? The "modern punk pop sound" is an abomination and an insult to punk rock In fact the very phrase "punk-pop" is an oxymoron. This is punk rock. (Not pictured in the photo, but the drummer on this was the late Larry "Brittley" Black, son of Dave Black, the famous jazz drummer. (From Akron, Ohio, but had to include them.) (Bass player was Jimmy Wilsey, later guitarist for Silvertone with Chris Isaak.) (Guitarist was Alejandro Escovedo. Original bassist was Mike Varney, before he became a "metal mogul".) (I was supposed to get executive producer credit for setting up the session and providing the time. Didn't. Oh, well. The drummer in the band it Brett Valory, brother of Journey's Ross Valory.) (i was mixing the house sound for that last one. Yes, that's Krist on bass. Without Flipper there likely would have been no Nirvana as we knew it.) Sorry if I have a bit of an attitude, but you simply cannot do this stuff by programming a computer. ESPECIALLY the drums. The SF punk scene boasted some of the best rock drummers in the Bay Area. NONE of these people were poseurs. A number of them died for it.
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Post by rocinante on Sept 1, 2017 1:13:11 GMT -6
Punk has evolved into something way beyond so many of the bands listed. Way beyond. That stuff was cool when I was 13 but there were far better bands of that era. And Johns right you weren't apart of it. It was awesome. It was something very special and it was full of talent and rawness. It was something you had to experience and no YouTube video or corperate sponsored schmuck will ever help you to it. You simply have to go yourself. Which you won't. it really began with bands like
Rudimentary Peni (especially the album cacophony) Conflict Dirt Subhumans (the day the country died) Discharge Anti-cimex Flux of punk Indians Amebix Doom Omega Tribe Crass Anti-schism Anti-sect Are a great starting point to name just a few. Brains, talent, and most of all spirit. They stood against. And then in the 90s some amazing bands wrote some amazing albums and punk evolved even more; crust, grind, sludge, all became sub genres of punk, but ask any punk nowadays (and not some jack ass who likes Henry Rollins or Green day) and they would consider them punk. Bands like;
Dystopia (especially the album "human = garbage") Nausea Extreme Noise Terror Skit system Aus Rotten Neurosis Skaven Initial state Contropetera Citizen fish Choking victim His hero is gone Rise against Asunder Filth Phobia Homomilitia Drop Dead Witch Hunt Damad Grief Oi polloi Leftover crack Toxic Narcotic Capitalist Casulties Eye hate god Abc diablo Agoraphobic nosebleed
All of whom are light years beyond the 3 chord junk and redefined what punk was. Made it become a threat by actually exposing corruption, standing up for what they believe in, etc... They put meaning to what was really terrifying; nuclear war, the kkk, nazis, your government, and the best part they actually could play their instruments.
Years ago and obviously at some time when many others stopped going to underground punk shows, punk evolved and became something way bigger than Henry fucking rollins. Bands like Dystopia introduced highly complex jazz metal drumming while bands like Rudimentary Peni let their schizophrenia out in the name of art. Bands like Neurosis wrote detailed atmospheric soundscapes to accompany the gloomy distorted guitars, while bands like Amebix and Antischism actually beat the shit out of neo nazis and screamed about various companies that torture animals to save on costs. *when i lived in SF and NYC we used to go "moon-stomping" back in the day and beat the shit out of neo nazis and skin heads. Back then nazis were bad. A few of my friends damaged a few slaughter houses that kept their animals in abhorrent conditions* Go to any great punk record store (I'm lucky I live near 'Extreme Noise') and very few of the bands in there will be the drunken plaid jacket and Mohawk sporting shit bands of yesteryear (that i liked when I was like 13) Don't get me wrong bands like minor threat, operation ivy, black flag, poison idea, flipper were fun when I was a kid and introduced me to good punk rock. As a matter of fact my first show when i was 14 was Bad Brains. But i hadn't gone to many punk shows at that time and once i found that there were so many more amazingly talented and highly intelligent and intense punk bands out there I never let go. Cause they were that good. You'll never hear them on the radio. They don't make YouTube or MTV videos. You would have to go and seek them out but they are worth every effort.
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Post by jazznoise on Sept 1, 2017 4:02:53 GMT -6
If you guy's haven't seen it, Soul Jazz have done compilations of the Punk 45's of various punk communities incl Akron, Ohio, Bay Area and they're really great. You get stuff like The Jazz Destroyers, X-X, The Urinals etc. and a lot of it is way ahead of where music was at the time.
While I appreciate all this talk of 'real punk' the DIY communities are still quite large and even with much punk co-opted into popular music, I think declaring punk dead to be the most old man trope in the world. A lot of us young people are playing punk, and they'd find your dismissal jarring. They do shows, they put up touring bands in their homes, they write about the world around them and they don't have cash for band tee's or whatever. What's not punk other than you're not in it?
90% of the work I do is bands playing live of the floor, overdub the vocals and out the door but the music has evolved. Since the post-hardcore thing there's been drum machines (Big Black), big weird chords and psychadelia (Gasp). Genres like Black Metal would be considered coherent musical peers, albeit with different aesthetics and because of the change in cost a lot of these groups also have stronger visual elements. Bands like Slint, The Fall, Scratch Acid etc. tore up the rule book a long time ago and now we can make punk rock out of whatever as long as it's authentic.
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Post by indiehouse on Sept 1, 2017 12:00:46 GMT -6
I've done quite a few productions with programmed drums in place of real ones. If you take the time to do detailed programming and make sure it's "played" like a drummer and then print each drum track to audio separately (kick, snare, toms, oh, etc) and treat it like a recorded drum kit you can get it to sound pretty convincing. Curious to know what program you use? I've always recorded live kits, but I'm interested in programming drums on an upcoming project. Any recommendations?
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Post by noah shain on Sept 1, 2017 22:16:16 GMT -6
I've done quite a few productions with programmed drums in place of real ones. If you take the time to do detailed programming and make sure it's "played" like a drummer and then print each drum track to audio separately (kick, snare, toms, oh, etc) and treat it like a recorded drum kit you can get it to sound pretty convincing. Curious to know what program you use? I've always recorded live kits, but I'm interested in programming drums on an upcoming project. Any recommendations? I've only used the Kontakt ones. 60s, 70s and studio drummer.
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Post by thehightenor on Sept 2, 2017 8:56:07 GMT -6
You don't think that nails the modern pop punk sound? The "modern punk pop sound" is an abomination. This is punk rock. So speaks an old man looking back on his youth This is me too John, just replace "Punk" for "Prog Rock" and I feel the exact same way about the bands I loved from the prog idiom. They just don't make music like they used to eh. And the kids listening to Punk and Prog by today's bands will look back in 30 years from now and say the exact same thing. It's a cycle that been going around since music begin, nothing is ever as good as the music of your youth, no matter when your youth was.
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Post by Tbone81 on Sept 2, 2017 9:53:41 GMT -6
I've done quite a few productions with programmed drums in place of real ones. If you take the time to do detailed programming and make sure it's "played" like a drummer and then print each drum track to audio separately (kick, snare, toms, oh, etc) and treat it like a recorded drum kit you can get it to sound pretty convincing. Curious to know what program you use? I've always recorded live kits, but I'm interested in programming drums on an upcoming project. Any recommendations? The Steven slate stuff is really good, I've used it a lot, sounds very finished out the gate. BFD is the more "real" sounding but in my experience clumsy to use, the GUI and default routing is not as nice, and it takes more work to get them to sound good in the track. Especially for rock stuff.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Sept 2, 2017 10:10:08 GMT -6
Ok, so to be real punk, you need sloppy musicians with poor sonics. Got it.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 2, 2017 11:48:37 GMT -6
The "modern punk pop sound" is an abomination. This is punk rock. So speaks an old man looking back on his youth This is me too John, just replace "Punk" for "Prog Rock" and I feel the exact same way about the bands I loved from the prog idiom. They just don't make music like they used to eh. And the kids listening to Punk and Prog by today's bands will look back in 30 years from now and say the exact same thing. It's a cycle that been going around since music begin, nothing is ever as good as the music of your youth, no matter when your youth was.
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Post by indiehouse on Sept 2, 2017 12:02:58 GMT -6
Curious to know what program you use? I've always recorded live kits, but I'm interested in programming drums on an upcoming project. Any recommendations? The Steven slate stuff is really good, I've used it a lot, sounds very finished out the gate. BFD is the more "real" sounding but in my experience clumsy to use, the GUI and default routing is not as nice, and it takes more work to get them to sound good in the track. Especially for rock stuff. I've got some Slate stuff, as well as Addictive Drums, though I hear people saying unkind things about it.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 2, 2017 12:13:21 GMT -6
So speaks an old man looking back on his youth This is me too John, just replace "Punk" for "Prog Rock" and I feel the exact same way about the bands I loved from the prog idiom. They just don't make music like they used to eh. And the kids listening to Punk and Prog by today's bands will look back in 30 years from now and say the exact same thing. It's a cycle that been going around since music begin, nothing is ever as good as the music of your youth, no matter when your youth was. Very late youth or is 27 early middle age? But that's not it - by definition punk rock isn't made with fake computer instruments. It's the antithesis of the core punk ethic. About the only "real" punk around these days that I'm aware of is skate punk and even that has become a caricature of itself. Punk is alive and moribund in the Bay Area - for at least a couple more weeks until the techies finish driving everyone out of town. As to prog, I'd say it's fared a lot better. For one thing, prog was never really a social movement the way punk was. Prog was/is a musical form and has kept evolving. Punk never was an identifiable musical form the way prog is. The original punk bands were all over the map, musically. When is became pigeonholed into a rigid musical form was when it died, really. The only real punk bands left are all geezers, repeating the glories of their youth*. The kids have lost the narrative. * - I'm affiliated with a group that put on sporadic mini-festivals of geezer punk in the earlier years of this decade. We got a lot of the old bands to re-form, some of them actually got second "careers" out of it for various short amounts of time.
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Post by thehightenor on Sept 3, 2017 8:29:46 GMT -6
Very late youth or is 27 early middle age? But that's not it - by definition punk rock isn't made with fake computer instruments. It's the antithesis of the core punk ethic. About the only "real" punk around these days that I'm aware of is skate punk and even that has become a caricature of itself. Punk is alive and moribund in the Bay Area - for at least a couple more weeks until the techies finish driving everyone out of town. As to prog, I'd say it's fared a lot better. For one thing, prog was never really a social movement the way punk was. Prog was/is a musical form and has kept evolving. Punk never was an identifiable musical form the way prog is. The original punk bands were all over the map, musically. When is became pigeonholed into a rigid musical form was when it died, really. The only real punk bands left are all geezers, repeating the glories of their youth*. The kids have lost the narrative. * - I'm affiliated with a group that put on sporadic mini-festivals of geezer punk in the earlier years of this decade. We got a lot of the old bands to re-form, some of them actually got second "careers" out of it for various short amounts of time. Lol .... I knew there wasn't a cat in heck's chance we'd agree on this (or anthing in fact I was around at the beginning of the "Punk" movement in London - my uncle ran the then famous Marquee Club in Wardour Street and the Reading Rock Festival. Punk wasn't a social movement per say - well not any more than Mods & Rockers/New Romantic/New Wave - Punk in the UK was as much a fashion movement as anything else with music to match. The Sex Pistols gave the impression of being "hopless wild boys" but were actually great musicans and great song writers. Punk was just like any other music - succesful because of great marketing, great songwriting and massive youth appeal. Maybe "Punk" in the USA had a different story? I just don't get why people see computers as anti-music - people have always made music with reference to the techology of the day. At one time in history piano's were looked upon as an "anti-music" contraption! Computers weren't in use as they are today - so we'll never know if The Clash or The Damaned would of used them, but they did use the recording technology of the day - so I imagine they would of embraced computers happily as many Punk bands do today. But one thing is certain in my mind - back when I was young music had way more meaning to the youth of the day - it's really all we had. For my two kids today - music is nothing more than a side salad on their entertainment dinner table. For us it wasn't only the main dish - it was the only dish!
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Post by EmRR on Sept 3, 2017 8:40:09 GMT -6
Ok, so to be real punk, you need sloppy musicians with poor sonics. Got it. mmm......no.....
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Post by jcoutu1 on Sept 3, 2017 8:50:18 GMT -6
Ok, so to be real punk, you need sloppy musicians with poor sonics. Got it. mmm......no..... That was based on John's comments.
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Post by jazznoise on Sept 3, 2017 9:44:07 GMT -6
No, they can have chops as long as they credit their producers correctly.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 3, 2017 12:15:30 GMT -6
Jesse, when you say "Ok, so to be real punk, you need sloppy musicians with poor sonics. Got it.", that's like saying play one wrong note and it's wrong, play it four times in a row and it's Jazz. Funny, with a pinch of truth, but miles off.
Hightenor, yes, Punk was a completely different thing in NYC, with few precedents, mainly Iggy, the Velvets, and the NY Dolls. British Punk was much as you described.
Those of us working at home with our computers, singlehandedly trying to make something musically good are in a small way, the result of the Punk revolution. Anyone can do it well if they are expressing themselves truthfully. Now, opportunity doesn't makes one's musicgood, but space was opened up for people who otherwise might not have pursued their art. Of course, the downside is there's tons more drek too.
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Post by thehightenor on Sept 3, 2017 12:27:52 GMT -6
Hightenor, yes, Punk was a completely different thing in NYC, with few precedents, mainly Iggy, the Velvets, and the NY Dolls. British Punk was much as you described. That is interesting, something I did suspect. I've seen some USA "punk" artists at one time or another here in the UK and they did seem to have a different ethos to British Punk.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 3, 2017 14:46:58 GMT -6
Maybe "Punk" in the USA had a different story? Well, yes. As I understand it, punk didn't even exist in the UK until the Ramones came over the first time. In the US it was different, and there had been punk movements on the east coast and in Northern California that were fully developed before the British thing happened - in fact the British influence had a negative effect on US punk, bringing in a lot of poseurs and conformity. Actually, when you get right down to it, American punk rock dates back to the late '50s and Link Wray.
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