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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 24, 2017 16:11:05 GMT -6
Maybe I’ll download a demo of ARMD. Maybe it’s entirely different, but I don’t see how it could be better than SD3.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2017 17:14:17 GMT -6
I'm using for songwriting, it has some cool midi features.. I'm using the progressive foundary SDX and of course the core library. As for the actual mix, nah.! Abbey road modern drummer (which I got like two days ago) sounds so much better, to the point I can't understand how some think it's the other way around. The triggering is far more natural between phrases, I do a lot of fast heavier stuff so it becomes far more apparent.. The presets are great ball parks and the inbuilt effects are good enough that I don't have to split the tracks, all I did was add the transient master on the buss for the NI stuff then shape the snare as it was a little bright / hard.. It's less fiddly across the board and easy to get it the way you want it.. The NI stuff is smaller size wise and less CPU intensive, I can happily run my interface at 64 samples with it enabled unlike SD3.. You can check it out via a demo unlike the Toontrack stuff so there's nothing to loose. Don't get me wrong in the VST world I'd probably put SD3 as a firm second in a lot of cases but I'm glad I got both really, one for songwriting and one for the final product. Personally though I'd just get EZdrummer 2 and some decent expansions if you've never owned SD, although I had SD2 already so for support reasons alone it was a logical upgrade. I couldn’t disagree more...I don’t have ARMD, but I do have all the other incarnations...and I just don’t see how you could come to that conclusion. It's absolutley cool, these differences are what contribute to our own sound and ultimatley you're doing it for yourself.. I honestly don't get what the big whoop is about it, but agree to disagree .. Wouldn't mind some other opinions (besides mine , there's demo tracks of both and you can get Abbey Road Modern as a demo. I'm always willing to admit I could be missing something.
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Post by popmann on Sept 24, 2017 17:43:21 GMT -6
Shadow---this is a complete side note, but what is your interface and host that your'e seeing SD3 use a bunch of CPU? Windows? Mac? Host? I'm not seeing any big CPU use here on my antique, which should be super sensitive to that.....
I'm not looking for a drum product so much as I'm demoing what's out there....which MIGHT lead to my replacing what I use, which is the Fairfax kits of AD2 for demos.....BFD2 for drum augmentation in mixes.
SD3, having now played with it a little, is pretty wonderful. And plays without latency on my 10 year old PC. I wish they had sampled more variation in the snares--which there are a LOT of snares, they sound, grand scheme VERY similar. Like they're all tuned kinda to the same pitch....they all have had the ring removed at some point in the process....so, there's not really a meaty low Don Henley snare....nor a Counting Crows (Steve Bowman) Anna Begins ringy snare....but, overall, it's super well done. And I say that as someone who has literally never heard ANYTHING from Toontracks that wasn't shit on a stick.
BTW....ARMD is a DW and Pearl Kit....so, literally the same thing I'm saying about the snare. those are modern boutique ringy snares. If that's the sound you want, you can't get it from the Core of SD3. That's what I mean....it's not "better"---it's a different kind of source drum/tuning....the undamped ringy snare is "a thing" in a lot of varieties of music.
Thought to anyone who wants the ring....you need to get it playing the "edge" articulation. Part of this is all in presets--what do they map to D1 D#1 and E1? They do the roll on D#....but, for some reason don't group it to the others so you still hear "rolling" if you move your finger from D# to E. and they put the R/L hand strokes down on A0.....I do think FXPansion's mapping is better for the keyboard--closed hats on the F#1 and Bb0....progressively open(er) hats on A#0 and F#0.....typical full open splash on A#1--so you can actually get a hat groove going with two hands. Likewise, the snare is R/L on D1 and F1--Rimshot in the middle (which sounds more like SD3's "edge") and the little roll on D3. You can roll your finger down to D1 to get a normal roll to hit....or up to E1 to get the roll into a loud ringy hit.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 24, 2017 18:44:58 GMT -6
You try the Yamaha Nouvette or whatever it’s called. Liked that snare.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Sept 24, 2017 19:01:17 GMT -6
popmann lol ever thought of editing your posts instead of replying multiple times when no one else is replying? Johnkenn on other forums, the software running in the background will consolidate multiple posts from an author if no one else replies in between postings. maybe there is an option for this board's software?
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 24, 2017 19:06:34 GMT -6
popmann lol ever thought of editing your posts instead of replying multiple times when no one else is replying? Johnkenn on other forums, the software running in the background will consolidate multiple posts from an author if no one else replies in between postings. maybe there is an option for this board's software? Really bother you that much?
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 24, 2017 19:14:32 GMT -6
There is one...but I'm kinda scared it's gonna combine everybody's threads everywhere...lol
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Sept 24, 2017 19:23:50 GMT -6
lol that would scare me too :-P
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Sept 24, 2017 19:24:29 GMT -6
nah, it doesn't bother me.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Sept 24, 2017 19:24:53 GMT -6
but it is bad forum etiquette in some internet cultures. YMMV...
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Sept 24, 2017 19:28:04 GMT -6
correction: *it is considered bad forum etiquette
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 24, 2017 19:29:01 GMT -6
So is being a dick. But yes, you're right. That annoyed me.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2017 20:02:17 GMT -6
Shadow---this is a complete side note, but what is your interface and host that your'e seeing SD3 use a bunch of CPU? Windows? Mac? Host? I'm not seeing any big CPU use here on my antique, which should be super sensitive to that..... I'm not looking for a drum product so much as I'm demoing what's out there....which MIGHT lead to my replacing what I use, which is the Fairfax kits of AD2 for demos.....BFD2 for drum augmentation in mixes. SD3, having now played with it a little, is pretty wonderful. And plays without latency on my 10 year old PC. I wish they had sampled more variation in the snares--which there are a LOT of snares, they sound, grand scheme VERY similar. Like they're all tuned kinda to the same pitch....they all have had the ring removed at some point in the process....so, there's not really a meaty low Don Henley snare....nor a Counting Crows (Steve Bowman) Anna Begins ringy snare....but, overall, it's super well done. And I say that as someone who has literally never heard ANYTHING from Toontracks that wasn't shit on a stick. Using Samplitude on PC with an ASUS ROG I7 / 32GB RAM / 1TB SSD.. I'm using the Soundcraft MTK as an interface (it's a hybrid board). It's not necessarily a "ringy" snare or anything in particular I'm looking for, I tried out the "studio" kit from the Studio Drummer addon with NI.. Again, it doesn't sound slightly phasey / weak, cymbal transitions are far more natural again the built in effects are better (as in don't need to split them out).. It triggers better, it's simpler to use and the samples don't sound as fake.. Now I would usually put this down to stupidity on my part bar the fact I've used SD for a long time with many bands and not one single SD3 demo track I've come across sounds any better. I suppose some of it like I mentioned could be down to repeat use over the years, but I don't know anyone that doesn't use superior drummer in the rock / metal scene over here and I've never heard anyone say it sounds great. It's just a necessity in a lot of cases when mic'ing a real kit wasn't an option.. There's demo's here to compare to, can't say I'm a massive fan of the "sparkle kit's" HH but the rest of it sounds good: www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/drums/abbey-road-modern-drummer/If you have any examples / mixes of SD3 I could compare to I could change my mind but for now it's going on songwriting duties..
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Post by popmann on Sept 24, 2017 21:16:33 GMT -6
edit made. For John.
FWIW--I do it because I don't believe in editing after things are public-thus potentially read, unless for simple grammatical error or bad links or whatever. But, I'll keep it in mind that Kennedy wants it done that way here.
Shadow--I think the Abbey Road stuff sounds good....but, that's the thing....I think a LOT of drum libraries sound good, just nothing made PREVIOUSLY by Toontracks sounded good to me. So, yes--pick your poison. I'm not really interested in convincing anyone to use anything but what sets them on fire artsitically. I was literally asking to see where people were coming from....
I think, first impression is that TT got it right this time. It's a great balance between natural kit sound and enough processing to be easy to control. Time and use, though, are really the pudding where the proof lies.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2017 22:26:17 GMT -6
Shadow--I think the Abbey Road stuff sounds good....but, that's the thing....I think a LOT of drum libraries sound good, just nothing made PREVIOUSLY by Toontracks sounded good to me. So, yes--pick your poison. I'm not really interested in convincing anyone to use anything but what sets them on fire artsitically. I was literally asking to see where people were coming from.... I think, first impression is that TT got it right this time. It's a great balance between natural kit sound and enough processing to be easy to control. Time and use, though, are really the pudding where the proof lies. It's cool, just taking it as some friendly convo between audio nuts.. I just wondered if I was doing something wrong? If nothing else I'm glad I spent the time trying various things and found something that works for me.!
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Sept 25, 2017 19:51:44 GMT -6
When most folks use drum libraries, are they looking for "I want that <band name> drum sound from <famous song>" type tones from the library? Or are they looking for an amazingly well recorded kit that they can process however they want? Which libraries are good for the first scenario and which libraries are good for the 2nd? For example, is there a drum library out there that would deliver the types of drum sounds drumrec posted in that song Johnkenn shared recently? I've always felt that if I (or the instrument I was playing) sounded like <insert name> then I would create musical ideas like them. I guess the sound influences the ideas, and the ideas influence the sound..?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 25, 2017 19:55:21 GMT -6
I always hope for dynamic flexibility and find samples just miss the mark. They're usually either too hard or too soft, despite my going into midi to adjust velocity beat by beat quite often. The Massenberg drums seemed to solve that problem. I'll probably buy it next month, I have other priorities right now.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 25, 2017 21:28:16 GMT -6
I think you can make most of these things sound good if you processs them like real drums. I bet if Hakan had SD3 with an electronic kit he kid make it indistinguishable. To me, it’s my inability to play like a professional drummer that will always be the biggest problem.
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Post by keymod on Sept 26, 2017 2:17:33 GMT -6
How do the cymbals sound? Toms? Focus always seems to be on kick & snare.
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 26, 2017 3:00:31 GMT -6
I think you can make most of these things sound good if you processs them like real drums. I bet if Hakan had SD3 with an electronic kit he kid make it indistinguishable. To me, it’s my inability to play like a professional drummer that will always be the biggest problem. With Haken's gear and studio the sound quality is a given but for me the thing he really brings is the real drummer artistic musical contribution to the song: he nailed your last song John from the downbeat ! Call me old school but I still believe a real drummer brings the feel, programming doesn't
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 26, 2017 7:22:29 GMT -6
I think you can make most of these things sound good if you processs them like real drums. I bet if Hakan had SD3 with an electronic kit he kid make it indistinguishable. To me, it’s my inability to play like a professional drummer that will always be the biggest problem. With Haken's gear and studio the sound quality is a given but for me the thing he really brings is the real drummer artistic musical contribution to the song: he nailed your last song John from the downbeat ! Call me old school but I still believe a real drummer brings the feel, programming doesn't I would hire a real drummer all the time if I could...but I can’t pay $100 for every demo I do...it would cost me a fortune.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 26, 2017 8:03:36 GMT -6
Me too. I have a great drummer who's a very close friend. He's worked with Hall & Oates, Pete Townsend, Busta Jones, The Escalators, Michele Pagliaro, among others. We've worked together since we were 21 years old.
I still can't ask him to take time to learn a song and meet me at a studio unless there's at least a $100 bill involved. The sad part is that's actually an issue. The digital revolution burned us all, and I'm busy looking for solutions now.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2017 8:48:35 GMT -6
Me too. I have a great drummer who's a very close friend. He's worked with Hall & Oates, Pete Townsend, Busta Jones, The Escalators, Michele Pagliaro, among others. We've worked together since we were 21 years old. I still can't ask him to take time to learn a song and meet me at a studio unless there's at least a $100 bill involved. The sad part is that's actually an issue. The digital revolution burned us all, and I'm busy looking for solutions now. Pro's of being a jack of all trades, took me about three months to learn how to play drums.. Mainly stuff like Slipknot / LOG, today if it's a rock song it'll take me about an hour to get it down (including recording), if it's a technical metal track probably about 3 / 4 hours to learn and about 4 - 5 attempts to get it right. It takes me about two days just to program a somewhat simple drum track with enough variation to not sound completley boring.. You don't have to be the best drummer ever as with midi you can time align and touch up as much as you like but still get decent stroke dynamics. It's worth getting an e-drum kit and learning IMO..
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Post by popmann on Sept 26, 2017 12:51:26 GMT -6
I just loaded a 4.5GB of RAM BUFFERS drum kit. I don't even have the surround stuff loaded.
Remember when people called BFD2 a resource hog because it would load 1-1.5gbRAM of a buffers for a magnetic? Good times. Load this 4.5gb Ludwig kit and LIKE IT!!
Another thought--you REALLY need to change the "soft hit volume" on everything, IMO. It has snare ghosts and light hat hits hitting hard by default. You can't handle it JUST through velocity curve because it IS triggering the lighter ghost note'y samples--it's just still LOUD. I found "-8db" to feel/sound more natural to me. I might go more for an eKit. It's different than adjusting the velocity response curve--that's the velocity response of what sample are triggered--not how LOUD they are. So laying a stick on mesh (or finger on key) might trigger the really light sample, but it's by default WAY too loud relative to smacking it.
Also, by default the crash cymbals are WAY too low unless you really smack them. I thought it was broken....like "where do I turn on the overheads--I only hear them out in the room mics"....those overheads must be CRAZY high up.
Thoughts from the morning sesh. Consolidated to one post for your reading pleasure.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 26, 2017 12:54:34 GMT -6
Perhaps this is why I've never been satisfied when I lower velocity on my SD2 samples? Am I able to adjust that in SD2?
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