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Post by deckerator on Jul 6, 2017 19:08:47 GMT -6
Hey Billy I think this goes to one of those very simple but oh so often forgotten, you have to know the ballistics and what the meters are saying! From my live days I remember guys walking by the board and complaining how I didn't know what I was doing because the clip lights were blinking away ! They were set for 3db below clipping , so a short blink meant we still head headroom! i think this is important to clarify this, because I just took a quick peak at his tutorial and 5 of his 17 tracks in the frame are hitting red. Does Billy change the clip light to be below 0dbfs? It doesn't appear so. He also clips plugins in the tutorial. He said "they dont stay red and are not distorting so i dont worry about it". So, I'm thinking he doesn't change the clipping meter. nope, dont change the meters...hell i dont even know how to do that...hahahahahah
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Post by deckerator on Jul 6, 2017 19:11:35 GMT -6
i think this is important to clarify this, because I just took a quick peak at his tutorial and 5 of his 17 tracks in the frame are hitting red. Does Billy change the clip light to be below 0dbfs? It doesn't appear so. He also clips plugins in the tutorial. He said "they dont stay red and are not distorting so i dont worry about it". So, I'm thinking he doesn't change the clipping meter. Wasn't saying he changed, it's all about knowing what it means. If it means it's clipping it's one thing if it means it's before clipping it means something else. I see so many noobies treat clip lights like they are radiation warnings, and as you are saying sometimes they say they are the line of death but in reality they are warning your close! It comes back to knowing what they mean in reality! This also goes to what I still feel is the most important thing we all need to spend time doing, just fing around in the studio! We all can learn something in the time where nothing matters, no client no band just us and the gear telling us what we can and can't get away with! excellent point amigo!!! when i do have a down day, i always practice...i go out and find a record where i hear something and go...ohh wow...i then go in and try to mimic it, using new plugs and tricks i pick up from reading forums like this etc......
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Post by deckerator on Jul 6, 2017 19:15:03 GMT -6
yes, i mix very hot levelwise...all the way up to zero... yes i use the l2 on individual instruments..ive gone on to using the l3 on the 2buss usually it takes me about an hr to do a mix...i will then send to clients and they can tweak for as long as they like...i always go til they are happy:) wait you use limiters in mix time that is interesting to me. can you explain the why deeper... and we talk mixing all ITB? for me at least...compression has a sound to it...limiting just keeps the sound the same and makes it louder and fuller/bigger......i use tons of limiting...lots of l2....massey 2007.....l3.....the isotope maximizer...etc....and yes i am all in the box......
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 6, 2017 19:16:31 GMT -6
decorator said: "i actually use an l3 as the last plugin on the 2buss....i have the output set at -.2 i think......"
I have a huge Waves bundle but hardly touch them these days. I'll have to give that L3 on the 2 bus a try Billy, thanks.
L2 on individual tracks never occurred to me either. Depending on the instrument, I usually reach for CLA76 or UAD 1176, UAD API 2500 or one of the Slate compressors.
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Post by deckerator on Jul 6, 2017 19:24:39 GMT -6
Hi Billy, welcome to the forum. When you high pass filter at the bass at 70Hz and the 2 bus at 35 Hz, which plug-in do you do that with?Jay Messina, (the great engineer/producer) is a friend of mine. I sent him a note a few days ago about my vocal chain, and his answer threw me a bit. I have the UAD Apollo, so I can print with UAD plug-ins directly if I want. I also have hardware clone of the Neve 1073, 1176, LA2A and Pultec EQ. The 1073 just got here last weekend, and when I asked Jay about stopping by to help me dial in my vocal chain, (assuming I'd go 1073 > 1176 > LA2A > EQP-1A), he said track without compression, and fix any volume issues in automation. I wouldn't dream of arguing otherwise, but somehow feel that's not the path for me, although as an experiment, I'll try a "plain" vocal one time, just to see. What are your thoughts about this?
My benchmark vocal sound is Lyle Lovette's "Road to Ensenada". Nathaniel Kunkle told me he used a U67 on voice and a C24, (stereo C-12) on the guitar at the same time for that track, and the bleed was part of the sound. There were Masenberg converters and I think Massenberg EQ and Compression, but I'm not sure about the compression.One of my more recent benchmarks vocal sounds is Dierks Bentley's "Home". I'd guess a U47 on that. What kind of processing you would use to get close to that kind of sound?1) i use the sony oxford for hi-passing...slope usually at 18db/octave....i will go up to 40hz on the 2buss but will then loosen up the slope to 12db /octave. 2) that vox tracking chain you just mentioned...looks more like a mix chain rather than a tracking....i usually go thru a preamp..then into something light compression wise....2-1 3-1 and only have the meters bump down about 3 db on the really hard loud parts....anything more and you end up painting yourself into a corner.....jay is also correct....the first rodney atkins record that had 4 no1's off it, and just recieved the most played song of the decade....rodney sang into a manley gold mic straight into the first generation mbox...using whateverpreamp it had in it...he didnt have a compressor, and sang in his bedroom....no baffles, no room acoustics....he just "rode" the mic physically to mimic compression...hahahahah.... 3) i listened to your lyle lovett trk...that vox sounds really nice....dont know about dierks, but i can ask reid, he would know...as far as that sound all i can do is point ya to something i've done recently and see if ya like that? check out chris young's brand new one losing sleep, or dustin lynch's small town boy....both those are on the radio right now and i can tell ya what i did to those?....hope that helps....
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Post by deckerator on Jul 6, 2017 19:26:21 GMT -6
decorator said: "i actually use an l3 as the last plugin on the 2buss....i have the output set at -.2 i think......"I have a huge Waves bundle but hardly touch them these days. I'll have to give that L3 on the 2 bus a try Billy, thanks. L2 on individual tracks never occurred to me either. Depending on the instrument, I usually reach for CLA76 or UAD 1176, UAD API 2500 or one of the Slate compressors. i also have been using the kramer pie at 2-1 barely tapping it......
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 6, 2017 21:02:56 GMT -6
Hmm.. I have a bunch of Kramer bundles, I didn't like any of them, but may have overlooked his compressor. I'll take a look around next time I'm mixing, thanks.
Billy, are the vocal tracks you get ever printed with compression?
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Post by ragan on Jul 6, 2017 21:19:26 GMT -6
I always really liked the Waves PIE comp.
Billy, you're making me want to fork over the WUP and get my waves stuff back.
Funny how impressionable we musicians/engineers are.
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge here. It is much appreciated.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 6, 2017 21:28:42 GMT -6
Have we talked about this, sll ? My wife is from York... GO BIG RED!!!!! You and I haven't talked about this much either - but we gotta watch some busker games together. I'm a huge ole miss fan but pull for the bugeaters because of the wife.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 6, 2017 21:44:33 GMT -6
decorator said: "i actually use an l3 as the last plugin on the 2buss....i have the output set at -.2 i think......"I have a huge Waves bundle but hardly touch them these days. I'll have to give that L3 on the 2 bus a try Billy, thanks. L2 on individual tracks never occurred to me either. Depending on the instrument, I usually reach for CLA76 or UAD 1176, UAD API 2500 or one of the Slate compressors. I've been using the L2 as a limiter on the drum bus after watching Billy. It completely shuts down the snare screwing up the 2 bus. I have no idea why I didn't do it before.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 6, 2017 21:50:03 GMT -6
Hmm.. I have a bunch of Kramer bundles, I didn't like any of them, but may have overlooked his compressor. I'll take a look around next time I'm mixing, thanks. Billy, are the vocal tracks you get ever printed with compression? That pie is super smooth
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Post by bradd on Jul 6, 2017 21:53:14 GMT -6
Good to see some Huskers around here. I grew up in Omaha.
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Post by ragan on Jul 6, 2017 22:03:41 GMT -6
deckerator Couple things I'm interested in hearing from you when you get a chance. 1. I know you like to use templates; do you have 'go to' chains for things? Do you find that for say, rhythm electric guitars, you do a similar thing with most tracks? Carve out certain frequencies/use certain processing chains/bus things together in certain ways/etc? 2. If so...um...can you tell us? Any general, broadly useful tips/tricks for vox/guitars/bass/drums? I don't expect you to type out a symposium on every potential source ever (unless you feel like it). But when I say "upfront, present-but-not-rip-your-damned-face-off lead vocal" do any specific techniques pop into your mind? 3. Personal thing here...I struggle with muddiness. I'm getting better at carving out those lows/low mids, but my bent is towards overly 'big', bloated sonics. Any carving tips? How aggressive are you with HPF, low/low mid cuts? 4. Last thing I'm curious about (for the moment)...you receive, I think? pretty well cut tracks. You mentioned Rodney Atkins vox done straight to M Box with a Ref C, but I would think a lot of the tracks you get are cut by pretty solid engineers with some pretty nice gear, is that safe to say? I honestly don't give two shits about the dogmatic "hardware vs software" thing but for myself, I can't get the weight and smile-inducing sonics with plugins that I can with hardware, even relatively budget hardware. You strike me as a pretty fast-working, results guy, which is great. But I'm curious, have you done much comparing of plugs and hardware? If you were a solo dude, producing your own stuff, would you keep a few key pieces of hardware around or would you just go straight, totally clean into the DAW and take it from there with plugins? I guess that's kind of a sprawling question. Answer as much or little of it as you see fit. Thx.
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Post by Ward on Jul 7, 2017 5:43:44 GMT -6
The next inevitable question is...
On average, how many hours do you put into a mix, from start to stem to finish?
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Post by ragan on Jul 7, 2017 8:53:00 GMT -6
The next inevitable question is... On average, how many hours do you put into a mix, from start to stem to finish? He has said he usually takes about an hour and then sends it off for feeeback.
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Post by svart on Jul 7, 2017 11:38:26 GMT -6
Next question.. What do you do about problematic guitars? One thing I constantly run into is guitars that have been recorded poorly, or don't fit the mix very well and usually lack a DI version for reamping. Do you use a lot of tricks and work to get them to fit, or just push them down in the mix and hope for the best?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 7, 2017 11:43:02 GMT -6
Getting the bass to sit right has been one of the trickiest things for me. You wrote, ".i first hipass at 70 hz.....next i eq 2 db at 100hz....2 db at 125hz...-6 db at 800hz...then i put on the maxx bass plugin by waves...preset is called aggresive...hz is set at 80 hz...."
Just to be clear, you typically boost 2 db at 100 Hz and at 125 Hz?
Do you have any suggestions for matching the bass level with the drums?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 8:35:26 GMT -6
awesome thread.
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Post by deckerator on Jul 8, 2017 8:56:03 GMT -6
decorator said: "i actually use an l3 as the last plugin on the 2buss....i have the output set at -.2 i think......"I have a huge Waves bundle but hardly touch them these days. I'll have to give that L3 on the 2 bus a try Billy, thanks. L2 on individual tracks never occurred to me either. Depending on the instrument, I usually reach for CLA76 or UAD 1176, UAD API 2500 or one of the Slate compressors. I've been using the L2 as a limiter on the drum bus after watching Billy. It completely shuts down the snare screwing up the 2 bus. I have no idea why I didn't do it before. Yes....in the metal world is actually named the snare killer....
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Post by swurveman on Jul 8, 2017 11:13:28 GMT -6
I've been using the L2 as a limiter on the drum bus after watching Billy. It completely shuts down the snare screwing up the 2 bus. I have no idea why I didn't do it before. Yes....in the metal world is actually named the snare killer.... I have another question Billy: I've seen your lead vocals labelled as Vox.07 and Vox2.07 with the same waveforms and automation. Are you parallel compressing your lead vocals, slamming one while mildly compressing the other? If so, do you eq one differently from the other and how hard are you slamming the one channel in what I assume is again 3 levels of compression. Or, is the copied vocal being used in some other way?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 11:39:26 GMT -6
Hello Billy - thanks so much for sharing all of this! I have maybe a left-field question: Watching some vids with you and checking your site, it seems you're a fan of sticking with things that have worked well for you, and not necessarily all of the newest and greatest and etc pieces of gear/plugins... That also seems to extend to some of the trappings around you, like your computer, pro control, boombox, even keyboard or mouse or working chair. I wanted to ask, have those choices come from an intentional place? Like - not buying all of the latest and greatest certainly keeps more money in your pocket for your life and family and etc. I read a quote once that said, "profit is what you don't spend" - I'm trying to reflect on that in my life, and I definitely notice how quick I am to think, "maybe I should get that thing, or maybe my work would be helped by this other thing" rather than just digging in more with the gear I already have. Regardless, it's just cool to see another way for someone to go about this whole thing and inspiring to see/hear the work you do with that and your willingness to share. Thanks man!
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Post by Ward on Jul 9, 2017 16:46:36 GMT -6
The next inevitable question is... On average, how many hours do you put into a mix, from start to stem to finish? He has said he usually takes about an hour and then sends it off for feeeback. Clearly, I wasn't quite satisfied with that answer, but I thank and acknowledge your kind reply!!
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Post by ragan on Jul 9, 2017 16:50:22 GMT -6
He has said he usually takes about an hour and then sends it off for feeeback. Clearly, I wasn't quite satisfied with that answer, but I thank and acknowledge your kind reply!! And actually, as soon as I posted that I thought "I bet Ward is actually wondering about the whole process, not just start to first-send"
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Post by Ward on Jul 9, 2017 18:37:17 GMT -6
Clearly, I wasn't quite satisfied with that answer, but I thank and acknowledge your kind reply!! And actually, as soon as I posted that I thought "I bet Ward is actually wondering about the whole process, not just start to first-send" You nailed it there!!
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Post by clonewar on Jul 10, 2017 18:57:04 GMT -6
I'm curious about how your pro control fits into your workflow.. How much of a mix is done on the faders vs the mouse? Do you use it for plugin control?
Thanks! Mike
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