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Post by scumbum on Apr 26, 2017 9:07:40 GMT -6
This no compression idea on vocals came to me cause I've been tracking without headphones using monitors and it reminded me of a P.A. at a live show . At live shows a lot of times theres no compression on the vocals . So why not do the same thing in the studio ? Why does it work live but not in the studio ?
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Post by scumbum on Apr 26, 2017 9:11:36 GMT -6
Just great .... haven't listened to any Doors for ages. Dunno about compression - it certainly has "glue" provided by that beautiful bass. Been listening to this cut a lot lately. Sounds great. You can't hear the kick drum at all, but the bass drives the song, and the top of the kit sounds sweet and classic Densmore groove. When LA Woman came out, I'd thought the Doors had shot their wad, and I was floored by how good the record was. your right , there is no kick drum !
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 26, 2017 9:15:50 GMT -6
This no compression idea on vocals came to me cause I've been tracking without headphones using monitors and it reminded me of a P.A. at a live show . At live shows a lot of times theres no compression on the vocals . So why not do the same thing in the studio ? Why does it work live but not in the studio ? It works shitty live. I wish my venue would spring for some decent compression to keep the singers a little more balanced.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 26, 2017 9:37:03 GMT -6
Lionel Richie's solo albums in the '80s had no compression on anything. They were recorded using DBX on a Studer.
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Post by swurveman on Apr 26, 2017 10:20:28 GMT -6
Been listening to this cut a lot lately. Sounds great. You can't hear the kick drum at all, but the bass drives the song, and the top of the kit sounds sweet and classic Densmore groove. When LA Woman came out, I'd thought the Doors had shot their wad, and I was floored by how good the record was. your right , there is no kick drum ! I read an interview with Bruce Botnick The Doors engineer. He used an Altec โsalt-shakerโ mic on the kick without a head.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,959
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Post by ericn on Apr 26, 2017 12:36:56 GMT -6
This no compression idea on vocals came to me cause I've been tracking without headphones using monitors and it reminded me of a P.A. at a live show . At live shows a lot of times theres no compression on the vocals . So why not do the same thing in the studio ? Why does it work live but not in the studio ? It works shitty live. I wish my venue would spring for some decent compression to keep the singers a little more balanced. Bring your own ! Best FOH and Wedge guys have a very particular rider and or their own rack! Most are now think they can get Buy with what a Digital board offers, few realize how important dynamics control before conversion is so bringing your own preamps is also a must!
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Post by scumbum on Apr 26, 2017 16:11:37 GMT -6
Lionel Richie's solo albums in the '80s had no compression on anything. They were recorded using DBX on a Studer. Thats cool , Do you know why that decision was made ?
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 26, 2017 17:05:29 GMT -6
We avoided compression as much as possible at Motown. DBX offered the opportunity to use none and Cal Harris jumped on it. He told me there was none used for the mastering too. Heaven knows what happened to the CDs.
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Post by scumbum on Apr 26, 2017 23:41:20 GMT -6
We avoided compression as much as possible at Motown. DBX offered the opportunity to use none and Cal Harris jumped on it. He told me there was none used for the mastering too. Heaven knows what happened to the CDs. Time to buy some used Lionel Richie albums from the 80s to use as a mix reference .
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Post by M57 on Apr 27, 2017 4:53:46 GMT -6
Okay , the concept of no dynamics on vocals is almost no existent when you consider mixing, anything on the buss or during mastering is going to effect the vocal! It's more a question of when was the compression applied! It seems to me that you'd better have a singer that knows what they're doing if you want to use no ..or even just a little compression. As a one-man singer/songwriter operation, I'm finding that putting a little on the way in (and monitoring it while I sing) is not only more pleasing, but also guides my performance because I'm hearing something closer to the end product. As far as less is concerned, I've recently discovered the trick of sending most everything except the vocal to a buss with a compressor keyed to the vocal. That way, I feel like I don't have to apply as much additional compression to the vocal. More and more ITB comps have this feature now. All that said, I'm enamored with the idea of using compression to create the perception of dynamic range. It seems counter-intuitive, but that mind-set seems to work for me.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 27, 2017 8:32:38 GMT -6
I know some might say practice better vocal technique, but sometimes I hold back if the compression isn't right on my lead vocal.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 27, 2017 8:38:02 GMT -6
One of the biggest causes of the need for vocal compression is head movement close to the mike. If you can move people back, you can mostly just ride gain.
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Post by scumbum on Apr 27, 2017 9:17:33 GMT -6
Okay , the concept of no dynamics on vocals is almost no existent when you consider mixing, anything on the buss or during mastering is going to effect the vocal! It's more a question of when was the compression applied! It seems to me that you'd better have a singer that knows what they're doing if you want to use no ..or even just a little compression. As a one-man singer/songwriter operation, I'm finding that putting a little on the way in (and monitoring it while I sing) is not only more pleasing, but also guides my performance because I'm hearing something closer to the end product. As far as less is concerned, I've recently discovered the trick of sending most everything except the vocal to a buss with a compressor keyed to the vocal. That way, I feel like I don't have to apply as much additional compression to the vocal. More and more ITB comps have this feature now. All that said, I'm enamored with the idea of using compression to create the perception of dynamic range. It seems counter-intuitive, but that mind-set seems to work for me. So far from practicing I've found you gotta have the mindset and goal of using no compression from the start or its not gonna work . Record yourself and then listen back . You'll hear where you have to make minor adjustments . After awhile you start fine tuning your singing and each take gets a little better . Like bob said you gotta keep the same distance from the mic . And a lot of notes you hit too loud or too soft , that you rely on compression to fix , you either need more vocal control or move your head from the mic . Usually its more vocal control . I also play drums . Its feels like the same thing as far as controling your dynamics . If you wanna sound good you gotta control your drum hits . Its like minimal micing the drums and relying on the drummer to control his dynamics . If the mindset isn't there it ain't gonna work . I think everyone should try it . It seems like its improving my singing a lot ! Before I didn't think about all these details and would compress like crazy . Now I'm focused 100% on controling every detail of the sound . Sing into a mic , playback and listen , if it doesn't sound good adjust until it does . Even if you still use compression its a great exercise and when you do use compression I'm sure it will sound better and you'll need much less .
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Post by swurveman on Apr 27, 2017 9:26:41 GMT -6
When I listen to Morrison on LA Woman I doubt he had much mic technique and his shouts that poke out of the mix enhance the mood. The rest of the mix sounds glued, but if he was as glued the song wouldn't be as rousing. I can't think of a single modern song that has as much raw energy coming from the vocal. Perhaps that's because rock is dead, replaced by a sanitized, over compressed version of engineer overreach. And I say that as one who is just as guilty as the next guy. This is something I too am going to be experimenting with.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 27, 2017 9:44:10 GMT -6
"engineer overreach". Well said swurveman, mind if I borrow that phrase?
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Post by ChaseUTB on Apr 27, 2017 10:42:58 GMT -6
How do you ride a fader while performing a take ๐๐?
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Post by bluegrassdan on Apr 27, 2017 11:10:54 GMT -6
Gotta start with a good singer who can work a mic and enunciate. Also, you would need a dynamic and thoughtful band to stay clear of the subtle vocal nuances.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 27, 2017 11:24:32 GMT -6
Sinatra had brilliant technique, but it was a different kind of music then. The same approach wouldn't work as well in a rock or rap context, although the techniques do work generally.
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Post by scumbum on Apr 27, 2017 11:31:51 GMT -6
When I listen to Morrison on LA Woman I doubt he had much mic technique and his shouts that poke out of the mix enhance the mood. The rest of the mix sounds glued, but if he was as glued the song wouldn't be as rousing. I can't think of a single modern song that has as much raw energy coming from the vocal. Perhaps that's because rock is dead, replaced by a sanitized, over compressed version of engineer overreach. And I say that as one who is just as guilty as the next guy. This is something I too am going to be experimenting with. He had mic technique , he expressed the song exactlly how it should be , hitting the loud notes and soft notes with just the right amount of volume and power . He had control of his voice . Have another guy sing that song and he'd hit those notes too loud and hard , it would be overbearing and you'd have to compress it . Thats what I'm hearing when I practice without compression , when the right words are emphasized and it pokes out where it should be its really more interesting to listen too . I think its just a matter with every instrument , either you practice to get control of your dynamics or you don't and then have to rely on compression to fix inconsistencies in your playing .
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 27, 2017 12:15:43 GMT -6
How do you ride a fader while performing a take ๐๐? That's why you rent studio time!
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 27, 2017 12:18:14 GMT -6
Sinatra had brilliant technique, but it was a different kind of music then. The same approach wouldn't work as well in a rock or rap context, although the techniques do work generally. Actually it would work much better for rock or rap because the vocals wouldn't be castrated by compression.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 27, 2017 12:31:58 GMT -6
Well. I found I naturally balance the vocal much better when singing with a live band than when I'm singing to pre-recorded tracks. It changes everything about the vocal, so I'm not sure no compression would be better for rap or rock, but certainly cringe when it's overdone and crushed to death.
I can barely listen to a Foo Fighters record it's so compressed. Same thing with Springsteen's "Radio Nowhere", just brutal vocal compression.
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Post by M57 on Apr 27, 2017 14:00:08 GMT -6
So far from practicing I've found you gotta have the mindset and goal of using no compression from the start or its not gonna work . Record yourself and then listen back . You'll hear where you have to make minor adjustments . After awhile you start fine tuning your singing and each take gets a little better . Like bob said you gotta keep the same distance from the mic . And a lot of notes you hit too loud or too soft , that you rely on compression to fix , you either need more vocal control or move your head from the mic . Usually its more vocal control . I'd like to think I have pretty decent mic technique - I've been recording with no compression on the way in all my life, so for some 30-odd years I've been recording and listening back as you describe and for better or worse my singing is about as fine-tuned as it's going to get. One thing that I've found refreshing about recording with compression on the way in is that I'm actually able to 'work' the compressor with my voice rather than the other way around. This may not be the best solution for many, but when I'm wearing all the hats in the room: producer/engineer/artist, it's more than just a work-flow solution, it's an artistic tool/effect that I'm able to play with in real time.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 27, 2017 15:30:15 GMT -6
So far from practicing I've found you gotta have the mindset and goal of using no compression from the start or its not gonna work . Record yourself and then listen back . You'll hear where you have to make minor adjustments . After awhile you start fine tuning your singing and each take gets a little better . Like bob said you gotta keep the same distance from the mic . And a lot of notes you hit too loud or too soft , that you rely on compression to fix , you either need more vocal control or move your head from the mic . Usually its more vocal control . Er......................................no. Have you ever heard the phrase "mic technique"? Or perhaps "Working the mic"? That's what Bob is talking about. He didn't say anything about "keeping the same distance from the mic". What he said was that you need to stay back from the mic. Most of you young kids (all things are relative) tend to get up on the mic way too close - there's too much proximity, too much sibilance, and every little head movement is magnified. And you end up using a pop filter, which causes additional problems. You set up the mic with the diaphragm at about eye level, but angled down toward the mouth a bit, usually hanging upside down. That way plosives and air lasts pass under the mic, buit it still gets the voice just fine. You sing back from the mic - at least a foot, maybe foot and a half. At that distance small head movements don't make much difference. On the louder parts you pull back a bit more or sing to the side. On the softer, more intimate parts you sing up closer, especially if you want a little low end boost from the proximity. If you have a word with a bad sibilant you turn briefly to the side at that point. It takes a little practice but it's not hard at all once you get the hang of it. It's not "more vocal control" in terms of controlling the voice itself - you sing naturally or you get lousy takes. What you control is the aspect of your mouth relative to the mic.
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Post by wiz on Apr 27, 2017 17:03:39 GMT -6
One of the biggest causes of the need for vocal compression is head movement close to the mike. If you can move people back, you can mostly just ride gain. inverse square law cheers Wiz
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