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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2017 14:11:05 GMT -6
..are you guys doing when recording or need when mixing for lead vox and lead instrument? Reason for asking I was watching a vid of someone constructing a lead solo, and he used loads of takes for the whole thing, then recorded even more for the trickier phrases. In all he must have had something like 20+ takes which he then joined together using little bits. Also used similar methods on lead vox too. Is this normal?
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Post by Calvin on Mar 22, 2017 14:14:35 GMT -6
I've done stuff like that - set a section on cycle record and play the section through a number of times then piece together a part. Other times, I'll have a good idea of what I want to do from the get-go and will get it done in a single take. Depends. It's certainly not unheard of for folks to comp together several takes to create a part, whether we're talking vocals, guitar solos, whatever.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 22, 2017 14:15:35 GMT -6
..are you guys doing when recording or need when mixing for lead vox and lead instrument? Reason for asking I was watching a vid of someone constructing a lead solo, and he used loads of takes for the whole thing, then recorded even more for the trickier phrases. In all he must have had something like 20+ takes which he then joined together using little bits. Also used similar methods on lead vox too. Is this normal? Yes, normal. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Mar 22, 2017 14:18:09 GMT -6
It's Normal for me, but usually just for stylistic reasons if the singer is still trying to figure a part out,to audition different phrasing etc. And usually just for lead Vic and/or guitar solos.
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Post by ragan on Mar 22, 2017 14:24:24 GMT -6
If I have the part down, I'll usually do 3 or 4 and then comp from that, if I'm not totally sure what exactly I want, I'll do somewhere between 5 and 1 million.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Mar 22, 2017 14:32:55 GMT -6
Get it right and do it once 😂 Unfortunately not every artist does.. even now days for the chorus a couple stacks can sound good. Sibilance can build up so I like the artist to either stand further back or mute the lead. If the lead isn't turned Down or muted I find the stacks become leads 😂... Recording myself I may do multiple takes unless using auto tune....
I used to like to stack my Vox before I knew how to properly mix .... learning parallel compression, insert compression, fader riding, learning reverb and delays to fill in space and depth...
You guys are lucky... I have to piece together stuff for the artist . Sometimes I'm lucky if I get more than one take. I encourage artists for multiple takes for flavor and dimension plus it can keep things fresh when layering in a vocal stack in the last chorus that hasn't been present throughout the song...
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Post by c0rtland on Mar 22, 2017 14:39:08 GMT -6
Kevin Parker said in an interview either gets the take the first try or he ends up doing hundreds.
Either visit a vocal coach or a shrink at that point.
I'd imagine normal is anywhere between 1-10
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Post by svart on Mar 22, 2017 14:40:15 GMT -6
Sounds about right. I'll have the singer do backgrounds first to warm up, then hit a couple of the louder takes first, then the softer takes. Vocalists hate me for this, but it makes the voice a bit more lively sounding like this.. right up til they get too tired.
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Post by rowmat on Mar 22, 2017 14:42:40 GMT -6
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Post by M57 on Mar 22, 2017 15:10:43 GMT -6
This should be an interesting thread. I'll bet it varies quite a bit depending on things like budget, talent, amount of patience and production demands. I'm just your garden variety song-writer with a home studio, so I have an infinite amount of time and can put down as many takes as I want. I use Logic X and I assume I do what most people do and and record multiple takes on the same track, which creates a take folder. For something like a lead vocal I'm pretty much like ragan in that I usually end up laying down between 3 and a million takes. I generally record a verse or chorus at a time, roughly comping each verse/chorus as I go to make sure theres a usable take for every phrase. If I don't like a take as I record it, I stop and immediately delete so it's not in the take folder (that's where the million comes from). I usually end up with between 3-6 full takes in each section. If while comping I find I need more takes or really need to hit a specific phrase that's tricky, I'll record it then before moving on to the next section - I don't like to come back and punch. I don't know if people will agree with me here, but I use to find that when I recorded a band or ensemble playing a tune the whole way through in one take, the first takes tended to be the most musical, but also tended to be sloppy and/or have the most mistakes. Later takes tend to be technically better, but lack that certain something. By the 4th take, it's just lifeless. On the one hand I think it's an ensemble energy thing, but then I wonder that it applies even when I record a section at a time. When I go back and look to see how I comped things, I find I use pieces of different takes with equanimity, with the exception that I seem to rarely use much of the very first take. I expect that in the real world with pros, 1 or 2 takes should be enough. After all, these guys are usually performing the material every day, and should be able to do it in their sleep. I'll be curious to hear from folks that work with pros. |
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Post by tasteliketape on Mar 22, 2017 15:16:33 GMT -6
The tape op interview with Mike Shipley , he says Mutt Lang would do 20 or 40 tracks of one part then dump down to one track then do 20 more and dump to another track to make up a stereo pair.
He was talking harmony tracks .
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Post by joseph on Mar 22, 2017 15:34:34 GMT -6
Always felt the ideal method is Paul's from Oh! Darling, about one fresh take per morning until you get it right.
Not very practical, but makes a lot of sense.
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Post by M57 on Mar 22, 2017 15:40:50 GMT -6
The tape op interview with Mike Shipley , he says Mutt Lang would do 20 or 40 tracks of one part then dump down to one track then do 20 more and dump to another track to make up a stereo pair. He was talking harmony tracks . That sounds about right. I usually end up with somewhere around 15-25 BV tracks, which are often triples, even more if I can get my wife to throw down a dozen. But we're mostly talking about comping solo tracks here. |
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Post by jazznoise on Mar 22, 2017 15:53:05 GMT -6
Always felt the ideal method is Paul's from Oh! Darling, about one fresh take per morning until you get it right. Not very practical, but makes a lot of sense. Yeah, the freshness is important. Typically when I work with a singer we're doing maybe 4 songs or more in a day and harmonies. So we get a headphone mix with them talking, I rough out the gains and we get to work. Try and keep each song to 3 takes or so, if we're having issues the singer stops and rests and we try to see what will make life easier - breaking it up into sections, varispeeding etc. Harmonies and bits like that go last or can be done later altogether. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2017 16:41:51 GMT -6
Interesting, I suppose instruments are likely to remain the same tone wise, but vox must be tricky, particularly keeping the same tone, and as said energy. So the need "punching in" was probably lost with the demise of tape and the limitless DAW options.
that's insane....
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Post by wiz on Mar 22, 2017 16:49:08 GMT -6
If I aint got it in 3 passes...its just physical exercise or sonic masturbation for me.... so I move on to something else and try again.
Vocals, its usually 1 take, then a safety.... and I leave it a day, and listen to take 1 and if there is a word or two, pull it in from take 2, if I aint got it out of that, I re sing it.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by rowmat on Mar 22, 2017 16:55:49 GMT -6
Interesting, I suppose instruments are likely to remain the same tone wise, but vox must be tricky, particularly keeping the same tone, and as said energy. So the need "punching in" was probably lost with the demise of tape and the limitless DAW options. that's insane.... I'm a stickler for trying to get the entire vocal down in a few consecutive takes. Coming back after lunch, let alone tomorrow, or next week to do drop ins or retakes for comp'ing means those vocal takes nearly always sounds different regardless of how anal you are about matching the technical side of things. When the client drops in a vocal section a day later and comments... "My voice sounds different. Are you using a different mic?" Nope, your voice sounds different because it is! |
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Post by swurveman on Mar 22, 2017 17:15:21 GMT -6
When I'm recording someone else and hear something that's not right I'll play the section again and ask the singer if they're comfortable with it. If they say they are I let it pass. If they ask me what I'm hearing I tell them. Most people ask what I'm hearing. Sometimes it's timing, sometimes it's pitch, sometime it's just something that feels awkward. For my own stuff, I work it until I'm satisfied.
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Post by M57 on Mar 22, 2017 18:02:41 GMT -6
Interesting, I suppose instruments are likely to remain the same tone wise, but vox must be tricky, particularly keeping the same tone, and as said energy. So the need "punching in" was probably lost with the demise of tape and the limitless DAW options. that's insane.... I'm a stickler for trying to get the entire vocal down in a few consecutive takes. Coming back after lunch, let alone tomorrow, or next week to do drop ins or retakes for comp'ing means those vocal takes nearly always sounds different regardless of how anal you are about matching the technical side of things. When the client drops in a vocal section a day later and comments... "My voice sounds different. Are you using a different mic?" Nope, your voice sounds different because it is! I might take some issue with this. Sure, it could be their ears or their psyche, blood pressure or the bud they smoked the night before, but temperature, humidity and hell I don't know - planetary alignment also seems to change things. I can set up the mics on a piano - record and come back the next day record some more and things just sound different. That said, I'm not disagreeing with your bottom line.. Get it down in consecutive takes! |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 22, 2017 18:43:03 GMT -6
Generally, when I'm tracking guitars or vocals with a band, this is how I operate. Vocals for example.
I set up the following tracks.
Vocal Tracking
Vox Comp1
Vox Comp1 DBL
Vox Comp2
Vox Comp2 DBL
Vox Harm
Vox Harm DBL
Etc.
I'll run all of my takes on the Vocal Tracking track and have all my playlists there. I generally have the singer run through the tune top to bottom 1-3 times. Then we start at the beginning and go part by part. If we have verse 1 from one of the full takes, great, drop it down to the Vox Comp1 slot. If we have a double, drop that down. If not, we track the verse until we've got what we need. Usually we run through the whole tune like this, either in order or all verses, then choruses, etc, then double back to lay harms and BGV's.
Take count will range from 3-whatever it takes to get it right. I've maybe maxed out at 75 takes of an improvised solo. Something like that, we're trying to nail the full solo in a take, not piecing together.
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Post by rowmat on Mar 22, 2017 19:04:46 GMT -6
I'm a stickler for trying to get the entire vocal down in a few consecutive takes. Coming back after lunch, let alone tomorrow, or next week to do drop ins or retakes for comp'ing means those vocal takes nearly always sounds different regardless of how anal you are about matching the technical side of things. When the client drops in a vocal section a day later and comments... "My voice sounds different. Are you using a different mic?" Nope, your voice sounds different because it is! I might take some issue with this. Sure, it could be their ears or their psyche, blood pressure or the bud they smoked the night before, but temperature, humidity and hell I don't know - planetary alignment also seems to change things. I can set up the mics on a piano - record and come back the next day record some more and things just sound different. That said, I'm not disagreeing with your bottom line.. Get it down in consecutive takes! Vocal chords, like muscles, can and do change, which in turn affects the tone. Air temperature, humidity, what they ate, or drank can affect the voice. Have they warmed up enough? Did they do a live gig the night before and strain their vocals chords? In an ideal world, for consistency, it just makes sense to try and get them to nail the entire song at the one time rather than spread it out over different sessions. |
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Post by donr on Mar 22, 2017 19:28:10 GMT -6
The tape op interview with Mike Shipley , he says Mutt Lang would do 20 or 40 tracks of one part then dump down to one track then do 20 more and dump to another track to make up a stereo pair. He was talking harmony tracks . I've been meaning to reference that Mike Shipley interview in TapeOp. Shipley's the AE/mix guy I most admire, even as I know Mutt Lang has a lot to do with why I like his stuff. I loved his "Paper Airplane" record with AKUS. Personally I usually try to do 3-4 takes with punch ins along the way on a lead vocal, then I comp those for the final. I'll do more if there's something I don't like at that point. I wish I could do it all in one take, but I don't have that much dominion over my voice in general. |
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Post by M57 on Mar 22, 2017 19:54:15 GMT -6
Vocal chords, like muscles, can and do change, which in turn affects the tone. Air temperature, humidity, what they ate, or drank can affect the voice. Have they warmed up enough? Did they do a live gig the night before and strain their vocals chords? All true, but you would think a professional who knows their voice and how to take care of it would know all of this AND know how to control it. This is a bit OT but I use to have a morning church gig as a section-leader/soloist, and I would spend at least 20 minutes warming up, and that was before I warmed up with the choir. You mentioned live gigs the night before - I use to sing in a 5-member a cappella group do-wap/pop group when I was in my twenties. It was constant singing and most gigs had four 40-minute sets with 20-minute breaks, and I had my share of solos. At one point we were working 4-5 nights a week, and at least a couple of those were in smokey bars. Strangely enough, one of the most important things I learned on that gig was how to warm "down" after the gig. It made a huge difference the next day. |
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Post by rocinante on Mar 22, 2017 20:08:46 GMT -6
Unfortunately i have done hundreds for one lead vox or guitar with at least 10 in the daw on mute ready to be edited.
I've read others have had the same experience. But that day when they (i) nail it finally; its beyond words.
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Post by c0rtland on Mar 22, 2017 20:44:53 GMT -6
Unfortunately i have done hundreds for one lead vox or guitar with at least 10 in the daw on mute ready to be edited. I've read others have had the same experience. But that day when they (i) nail it finally; its beyond words. Fair. As many as it takes (ha) is the only real answer. |
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