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Post by EmRR on Mar 22, 2017 20:47:02 GMT -6
3 passes, comp. last half of 1 and 2nd half of 2 is usually most of it. Universally. Few patches from 3, maybe, it usually sounds overly self-aware though maybe more technically correct. Maybe some spot fixes on the comp.
Unless they don't have their shit together or are writing in studio.
Then the sky's the limit. I've built a lead vocal out of 40 takes, maybe 20 that were full passes. Shit, I've put piano on clients records in less than 40 passes AND I DON'T PLAY THE PIANO, not even a little bit. I gotta put tape on the keys to know what's in scale.
You can invariably watch a guitarist take 20 passes on a solo and they will all get worse as it goes.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Mar 22, 2017 22:08:37 GMT -6
They get the live take, and 2 more passes as odubs. I usually have it after that if im working with pros.
If im not working with pros, I'll give them about 8 passes, comp as I go, time everything up, and hit melodyne.
I've got people to come sing bgvs or I'll do it myself if the song calls for it.
I don't see any reason to frustrate a "singer" or myself if they aren't up to snuff.
If im working on my own tunes, I give myself 3 passes. If I can't comp from that I try it on another day.
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Post by scumbum on Mar 22, 2017 22:21:44 GMT -6
If I aint got it in 3 passes...its just physical exercise or sonic masturbation for me.... so I move on to something else and try again. Vocals, its usually 1 take, then a safety.... and I leave it a day, and listen to take 1 and if there is a word or two, pull it in from take 2, if I aint got it out of that, I re sing it. cheers Wiz I used to do TONS and TONS of takes on everything ! Then edit like a mad man . And I'd get perfect boring music that I can't stand to listen to all the way through . Also always used a click track . I did this for years and was always wondering why does the old stuff I made on a 4 track cassette beat out the stuff I now make today on my "PRO" modern setup . I find for me the first few takes have all the energy . If I don't nail it all the way through in like 5 takes , it just ain't gonna work that day , I need more practice . Past 5 takes the energy and vibe are gone . I can get a technically right take if I keep going , but it ain't gonna have the right energy or have repeat listenability . Theres an "In the Zone" vibe during the first few takes that slowly goes away by each take . I find its all about what you do "Before" you hit record thats most important . You gotta get warmed up for your best performance for the day . Its like preparing for a Boxing Match . You get warmed up on whatever instrument you play doing scales/strumming on guitar , drum rudiments on drums ..... Vocals I vocalize for an hour and a 1/2 . Get pumped up , hyped up , like your about to enter the ring ...........also its like a Pitcher in baseball , he doesn't just get off the bench and walk to the mound , hes gotta get warmed up , hes about to close game 7 in the world series ! If after all that warming up and you don't get it in around 5 takes , it just ain't gonna work that day . Spend the rest of your time practicing for the next day . This is just what I found works for me . Instead of spending hours of recording and editing . I spend all my time practicing and warming up preparing to record and spend little time actually recording .
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 22, 2017 22:28:00 GMT -6
I've found that any more than 3-4 takes, and my voice begins to suffer. Usually, I do three takes.
The first two are the keepers, the third is for safety reasons. Safety, meaning say one vocal is really good, but I popped a word or made a funny sound, if the 2nd take doesn't fix it, the 3rd probably will. Usually, my first take is the keeper, and I typically use 95% of that take, or more. I haven't used any pitch correction for two years, I keep hearing artifacts when I do. I get some imperfect takes this way, but hell, at least it sounds real.
That's not to say I haven't done six takes on occasion, but mainly because I was feeling good and just felt like singing, so why not.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 5:11:39 GMT -6
Cheers guys, interesting stuff. I guess the pursuit of perfection somehow needs to be balanced with the energy and spontaneity of the moment. Did surprise me though - just the concentration needed to differentiate the wheat from the chaff in 20, 30 or whatever takes. That's stamina!
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Post by Ward on Mar 23, 2017 9:32:55 GMT -6
Personally speaking, when commissioned by a client for guitar work or backing vocal work, my quoted price is the finished product to the best of my ability. I have done up to 100 takes on a guitar solo, and have spent as much as 3 hours on each section of a backing vocal stack. I am used to my being an asshole slave driving OCD perfectionist to myself.
When dealing with recording others, I usually operate as producer and engineer so I back off a bit.
I aim for 4 close-to-perfect vocal tracks. That means cutting a complete vocal track, fixing any phrases that the talent and I aren't satisfied with and redoing each of those. Then next take, repeat until we get 4 'perfect' record worthy vocal tracks. Then we comp those together the next day. Often times, a lot of takes 3 and 4 get used.
It's the same with guitar and other solos, those are the standout parts that require multiple takes and 'nailing it'... as they are the 'voice' of the song.
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 23, 2017 9:56:07 GMT -6
..are you guys doing when recording or need when mixing for lead vox and lead instrument? Reason for asking I was watching a vid of someone constructing a lead solo, and he used loads of takes for the whole thing, then recorded even more for the trickier phrases. In all he must have had something like 20+ takes which he then joined together using little bits. Also used similar methods on lead vox too. Is this normal? Take comping is often used and was also used in the 80s - thats at least what my mentor told me. Logics comping function is perfect for this, a little bit tricky to use but it will be 100% faster vs cutting real tape.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 23, 2017 11:37:36 GMT -6
m57 said, "Strangely enough, one of the most important things I learned on that gig was how to warm "down" after the gig. It made a huge difference the next day".
So, how do you "warm down" ?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 23, 2017 11:43:03 GMT -6
I produced a record in the late 80's for a songwriter friend. He hired a great guy named Ken Prymus to sing. At the time, Ken was the Lion in the Wiz on Broadway, and he did 8 shows a week. When we were rehearsing, he kept asking me to boil some water and he made a cup of tea he'd sip while practicing. Finally I asked "what's up with the tea?". He said he couldn't do what he does without it.
It's made by a company called Traditional Medicinals, and it's called Throat Coat. Tastes great, no dangerous ingredients. I've tried the knockoffs, only this one does the trick. Drink an hour before singing, gargle with it a little, and it's like you lubed your gears, and they're smooth running now.
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Post by Ward on Mar 23, 2017 11:46:09 GMT -6
I produced a record in the late 80's for a songwriter friend. He hired a great guy named Ken Prymus to sing. At the time, Ken was the Lion in the Wiz on Broadway, and he did 8 shows a week. When we were rehearsing, he kept asking me to boil some water and he made a cup of tea he'd sip while practicing. Finally I asked "what's up with the tea?". He said he couldn't do what does without it. It's made by a company called Traditional Medicinals, and it's called Throat Coat. Tastes great, no dangerous ingredients. I've tried the knockoffs, only this one does the trick. Drink an hour before singing, gargle with it a little, and it's like you lubed your gears, and they're smooth running now. I've stocked and made and given throat coat to every singer I've worked with for YEARS! Others include breath easy, same company, and for particularly groggy voices: SPECIFICALLY. Celestial Seasonings Honey Lemon Ginseng Green Tea. But good luck finding it anymore!!
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Post by Vincent R. on Mar 23, 2017 12:00:34 GMT -6
It all depends on the performer. I've learned that there are a few kinds of performers. Some people will give you the most unbeleivable performances right out of the gate, then plateau, which makes their first few takes the golden ones. Some take a while to warm up and give usable, but only ok performances until all of a sudden they get their groove and magic comes out. Some have to sit and record and perfect each section one by one, only moving on once that section is completed.
I'm the the first kind. I'll do two or three takes, then comp. I usually don't need much more than a punch or two after that, if I even need that. It's made me a useful studio vocalist throughout my career.
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Post by M57 on Mar 23, 2017 12:06:00 GMT -6
m57 said, "Strangely enough, one of the most important things I learned on that gig was how to warm "down" after the gig. It made a huge difference the next day".
So, how do you "warm down" ? I was fine with the classical gigs, but singing pop and rock in smokey clubs (and especially after a couple drinks) was a recipe for trouble. By the third or last set of such a gig, vocal fatigue would set in as my technique wained. My throat would start to to get tight, forcing me to have concentrate even more on technique. When this happened, at the end of the gig - I basically didn't stop singing - if I did, my chords would tighten up even more and I'd barely have a voice the next morning. "Warming Down" for me involved light to moderate humming in the meat of my tessitura using good vocal technique I.e. singing on the breath (no glottal stops) and keeping a little buzz in my mask. Oh yeah - hydrate - hydrate (no ice). If you weren't doing it during the gig, shame on you.
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Post by drbill on Mar 23, 2017 15:16:00 GMT -6
Unfortunately i have done hundreds for one lead vox or guitar with at least 10 in the daw on mute ready to be edited. I've read others have had the same experience. But that day when they (i) nail it finally; its beyond words. Fair. As many as it takes (ha) is the only real answer. This! ^^^^ Completely depends on the talent, their skill, their level of concentration and a million other factors. As many as it takes is the only right answer. And to the OP, yes, this is totally normal - depending on of course the talent and the level of professionalism you're after. Sometimes I'll do comps like mentioned, and sometimes I'll just punch my way through a song. Depends totally on the talent and what they are comfortable with.
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Post by chasmanian on Mar 24, 2017 6:17:47 GMT -6
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Post by Ward on Mar 24, 2017 6:28:59 GMT -6
" Currently Unavailable. We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock."
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Post by chasmanian on Mar 24, 2017 6:39:33 GMT -6
I bought it in January and again in February. hmmm.
edit: I just added it to my cart. it was gonna let me order it. (I even tried it twice, to double check.) it said nothing about being currently unavailable.
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Post by Ward on Mar 24, 2017 6:59:30 GMT -6
I bought it in January and again in February. hmmm. edit: I just added it to my cart. it was gonna let me order it. (I even tried it twice, to double check.) it said nothing about being currently unavailable. My ti-ti-t-t-t-timing sucks, I guess. (with apologies to Steve Martin for stealing his comedy bit)
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 24, 2017 7:17:41 GMT -6
Ward, Whole Foods carries Throat Coat, as do many health food stores. Is there a Whole Foods near you?
I wait until they're on sale and buy a few boxes.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 24, 2017 8:03:13 GMT -6
" Currently Unavailable. We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock." $2.32 here. Apparently, they just don't like selling to you northerners.
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Post by adamjbrass on Mar 24, 2017 8:19:16 GMT -6
..are you guys doing when recording or need when mixing for lead vox and lead instrument? Reason for asking I was watching a vid of someone constructing a lead solo, and he used loads of takes for the whole thing, then recorded even more for the trickier phrases. In all he must have had something like 20+ takes which he then joined together using little bits. Also used similar methods on lead vox too. Is this normal? three [and only edit/comp them together if its absolutely needed] but I do engineering sessions with people that use hundreds
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Post by Ward on Mar 24, 2017 8:21:30 GMT -6
" Currently Unavailable. We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock." $2.32 here. Apparently, they just don't like selling to you northerners. So, all that time in Texas and they didn't like selling to me down there either. Man oh man, those people are a picky bunch!!
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Post by javamad on Mar 27, 2017 6:56:37 GMT -6
Took a look at that tea on Amazon.uk .... £12.72 for a box of 16 tea bags ... down from an RRP of £33.54? What's in this stuff?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 27, 2017 7:28:52 GMT -6
Magic.
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Post by Ward on Mar 27, 2017 9:04:37 GMT -6
Took a look at that tea on Amazon.uk .... £12.72 for a box of 16 tea bags ... down from an RRP of £33.54? What's in this stuff? That's very pricey. I pay $4.99 at the most for a box of it. Sometimes on sale for $3.99 www.traditionalmedicinals.com/products/throat-coat/ But it's worth every one of those 1272 pennies considering what it does!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2017 9:11:53 GMT -6
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