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Post by mrholmes on Mar 13, 2017 8:42:16 GMT -6
I cant believe it. Told a friend about the cheap Samson mic which is not bad on vocals and guitars, and the best of it all it has low noise and a high voltage output. Perfect for tracking a low SPL solo guitar picking tune. www.samsontech.com/samson/products/microphones/condenser-microphones/mtr201/He told me to try this one too and gave it to me for a week. www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_sc450.htmUnexpected but it is not bad too, works not as low noise as the Samson one, but has nice responsive transients an a nice proximity effect. It should be illegal to produce a good microphone at this low price.
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Post by svart on Mar 13, 2017 9:16:54 GMT -6
I used to seek out the "best" cheap mics. I had a handful of them, mod them, and used to profess their virtues and swear they could run with the big boys..
But then I got my first Gefell.
Sold the cheap mics.
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 13, 2017 9:32:51 GMT -6
I used to seek out the "best" cheap mics. I had a handful of them, mod them, and used to profess their virtues and swear they could run with the big boys.. But then I got my first Gefell. Sold the cheap mics. I own several German big boy mics -just to make that point clear- and I know they sit in the mix like nothing else. I did not swear they are as good as them, or exactly the same, but on some sources the cheap ones work great. Given the huge investment difference its a valid question if someone can live with a few different cheap microphones for different tasks.
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Post by svart on Mar 13, 2017 9:47:01 GMT -6
I used to seek out the "best" cheap mics. I had a handful of them, mod them, and used to profess their virtues and swear they could run with the big boys.. But then I got my first Gefell. Sold the cheap mics. I own several German big boy mics -just to make that point clear- and I know they sit in the mix like nothing else. I did not swear they are as good as them, or exactly the same, but on some sources the cheap ones work great. Given the huge investment difference its a valid question if someone can live with a few different cheap microphones for different tasks. I understand what you mean, but for me, I wish I had just ponied up the money for high end mics to begin with. I wasted a lot of time and money trying to find and mod a cheap mic to be the slayer of all others. It never happened and I never made even half my money back on the cheap mics. With the money I lost on those, I could have bought a couple more good mics. I always tell folks who ask me about mics to save their money until they can buy a proven performer and not travel the "upgrade road" like I did.
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 13, 2017 11:15:57 GMT -6
I own several German big boy mics -just to make that point clear- and I know they sit in the mix like nothing else. I did not swear they are as good as them, or exactly the same, but on some sources the cheap ones work great. Given the huge investment difference its a valid question if someone can live with a few different cheap microphones for different tasks. I understand what you mean, but for me, I wish I had just ponied up the money for high end mics to begin with. I wasted a lot of time and money trying to find and mod a cheap mic to be the slayer of all others. It never happened and I never made even half my money back on the cheap mics. With the money I lost on those, I could have bought a couple more good mics. I always tell folks who ask me about mics to save their money until they can buy a proven performer and not travel the "upgrade road" like I did. My point is that using good cheap ones wont break your project anymore. If I remember 15 years ago when students showed mics of this price range, 100% of them where just awful tools.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 13, 2017 14:11:45 GMT -6
I understand what you mean, but for me, I wish I had just ponied up the money for high end mics to begin with. I wasted a lot of time and money trying to find and mod a cheap mic to be the slayer of all others. It never happened and I never made even half my money back on the cheap mics. With the money I lost on those, I could have bought a couple more good mics. I always tell folks who ask me about mics to save their money until they can buy a proven performer and not travel the "upgrade road" like I did. My point is that using good cheap ones wont break your project anymore. If I remember 15 years ago when students showed mics of this price range, 100% of them where just awful tools. Maybe they won't break your project, maybe they will. One of the major problems with cheap mics like that is the totally inconsistant quality. Yeah, you might get one that's quite decent - but the odds are equally great, if not greater, that you'll get one that's really awful. As Clint Eastwood famously said "Are you feeling lucky?" When it comes to cheap condenser mics, I'm not. The odds are you'll just end up with a drawer full of junk you'll never be able to get even a fraction of your money out of. And just because you know somebody who got a cheap mic that turned out great, or even useable, doesn't mean that you'll have the same experience ifr you buy one. It's like putting on a blindfold, picking up a handful of darts, having somebody spin you around three times, then throwing all of them at once, hoping that at least one will hit the board. Who knows, you might get a bull's eye. Maybe....
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Post by ragan on Mar 13, 2017 14:38:18 GMT -6
My point is that using good cheap ones wont break your project anymore. If I remember 15 years ago when students showed mics of this price range, 100% of them where just awful tools. Maybe they won't break your project, maybe they will. One of the major problems with cheap mics like that is the totally inconsistant quality. Yeah, you might get one that's quite decent - but the odds are equally great, if not greater, that you'll get one that's really awful. As Clint Eastwood famously said "Are you feeling lucky?" When it comes to cheap condenser mics, I'm not. The odds are you'll just end up with a drawer full of junk you'll never be able to get even a fraction of your money out of. And just because you know somebody who got a cheap mic that turned out great, or even useable, doesn't mean that you'll have the same experience ifr you buy one. It's like putting on a blindfold, picking up a handful of darts, having somebody spin you around three times, then throwing all of them at once, hoping that at least one will hit the board. Who knows, you might get a bull's eye. Maybe.... Yeah, if you're reaching into a random bag of mics and pulling one out without knowing anything about it. That's not the reality though. There's no such monolithic category as "cheap microphones". There are designers, manufacturers, retail companies, etc. The electrons don't care where in the food chain they sit according to brand dogma. There are very high quality mics coming out of China these days. Some of them are sold as "cheap" mics, some are dolled up and sold at huge markup under various brand names. It's not that there aren't crappy, cheap mics. There are of course. But there are crappy expensive mics too. It's not like it was 15 years ago. You can find very high quality mics on a budget, 3U Audio being the glaring example. I've got 6 of their mics. They may not totally slay the U47/67/Tele 251 dragon, but they compete easily with mics retailing for double or triple their cost.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 13, 2017 15:35:25 GMT -6
Maybe they won't break your project, maybe they will. One of the major problems with cheap mics like that is the totally inconsistant quality. Yeah, you might get one that's quite decent - but the odds are equally great, if not greater, that you'll get one that's really awful. As Clint Eastwood famously said "Are you feeling lucky?" When it comes to cheap condenser mics, I'm not. The odds are you'll just end up with a drawer full of junk you'll never be able to get even a fraction of your money out of. And just because you know somebody who got a cheap mic that turned out great, or even useable, doesn't mean that you'll have the same experience ifr you buy one. It's like putting on a blindfold, picking up a handful of darts, having somebody spin you around three times, then throwing all of them at once, hoping that at least one will hit the board. Who knows, you might get a bull's eye. Maybe.... Yeah, if you're reaching into a random bag of mics and pulling one out without knowing anything about it. That's not the reality though. There's no such monolithic category as "cheap microphones". There are designers, manufacturers, retail companies, etc. The electrons don't care where in the food chain they sit according to brand dogma. There are very high quality mics coming out of China these days. Some of them are sold as "cheap" mics, some are dolled up and sold at huge markup under various brand names. It's not that there aren't crappy, cheap mics. There are of course. But there are crappy expensive mics too. It's not like it was 15 years ago. You can find very high quality mics on a budget, 3U Audio being the glaring example. I've got 6 of their mics. They may not totally slay the U47/67/Tele 251 dragon, but they compete easily with mics retailing for double or triple their cost. Well, I'm not familiar with the 3U mics so I can't say. I also haven't heard them mentioned anywhere but here. However there's one overarching principle involved, and that is that in the lower price tiers there is a direct relationship between cost to the consumer and production cost, and one of the major expenses in production of a good mic is quality control, Not only the inspection itself, which is labor intensive and requires a certain amount of expertise, but also the cost of rejection - the better the QC the higher the rejection rate and the higher the rejection rate the greater the retail cost of the product. It's not rocket science. Quality control costs money. In my case one of the primary things I pay attention to in a mic, especially a condenser, is the quality of the sound in the presence area, and that is precisely where most inexpensive mics fail. I look for a mic that is smooth in the presence region with a lack of obvious sibilence but good detail Most inexpensive condensers are at least somewhat hyped in that area and that exacerbates problems - expecially with my own vocal, but also with female vocalists, acoustic guitars, cymbals, etc. The other really important area where inexpensive mics tend to fall down is off-axis response. It's much easier to get an even frequency response on-axis than off axis and the importance of off axis sound is largely overlooked by many, if not most people. It is my belief that a large percentage of problems that many home recordists have with room tone are NOT really the fault of room acoustics as much as the result of poor off axis mic performance. Then the recordist ends up spending more money on insulation pimps than it would have cost to simply get a better mic in the first place, with better results. They deaden the crap out of the room to kill the bad off-axis pickup and then end up trying to make up for the resulting dullness and lack of life in the sound with artificial reverb. Of course spending a lot of money doesn't guarantee a good mic. As we know, Neumann puts out more than its share of dogs. You have to pay attention to what you're getting. I tend to wait for good deals on mics I know something about and pounce - I don't go looking at new product much. I prefer to get a relatively cheap price on a fairly expensive mic when I can rather than paying store price. A couple weeks ago we had a band come over renting the place for a couple hours rehearsal. Just for the halibut I stuck up a single KM84 (my cost -$1000) high in the room and got a better recording with that than I might have got by close micing everything with lesser (but not cheap) mics.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 13, 2017 15:40:45 GMT -6
Cheap mics no longer suck, but they don't bring what the big boys bring to the party either. As an engineer/ producer mic choice is still are most influential sonic weapon, it's nice to know their are more useable options in the crayon box and even nicer to know we don't have to choose car or mic to color a decent purple dragon!
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Post by ragan on Mar 13, 2017 15:42:33 GMT -6
Yeah, if you're reaching into a random bag of mics and pulling one out without knowing anything about it. That's not the reality though. There's no such monolithic category as "cheap microphones". There are designers, manufacturers, retail companies, etc. The electrons don't care where in the food chain they sit according to brand dogma. There are very high quality mics coming out of China these days. Some of them are sold as "cheap" mics, some are dolled up and sold at huge markup under various brand names. It's not that there aren't crappy, cheap mics. There are of course. But there are crappy expensive mics too. It's not like it was 15 years ago. You can find very high quality mics on a budget, 3U Audio being the glaring example. I've got 6 of their mics. They may not totally slay the U47/67/Tele 251 dragon, but they compete easily with mics retailing for double or triple their cost. Well, I'm not familiar with the 3U mics so I can't say. I also haven't heard them mentioned anywhere but here. However there's one overarching principle involved, and that is that in the lower price tiers there is a direct relationship between cost to the consumer and production cost, and one of the major expenses in production of a good mic is quality control, Not only the inspection itself, which is labor intensive and requires a certain amount of expertise, but also the cost of rejection - the better the QC the higher the rejection rate and the higher the rejection rate the greater the retail cost of the product. It's not rocket science. Quality control costs money. In my case one of the primary things I pay attention to in a mic, especially a condenser, is the quality of the sound in the presence area, and that is precisely where most inexpensive mics fail. I look for a mic that is smooth in the presence region with a lack of obvious sibilence but good detail Most inexpensive condensers are at least somewhat hyped in that area and that exacerbates problems - expecially with my own vocal, but also with female vocalists, acoustic guitars, cymbals, etc. The other really important area where inexpensive mics tend to fall down is off-axis response. It's much easier to get an even frequency response on-axis than off axis and the importance of off axis sound is largely overlooked by many, if not most people. It is my belief that a large percentage of problems that many home recordists have with room tone are NOT really the fault of room acoustics as much as the result of poor off axis mic performance. Then the recordist ends up spending more money on insulation pimps than it would have cost to simply get a better mic in the first place, with better results. They deaden the crap out of the room to kill the bad off-axis pickup and then end up trying to make up for the resulting dullness and lack of life in the sound with artificial reverb. Of course spending a lot of money doesn't guarantee a good mic. As we know, Neumann puts out more than its share of dogs. You have to pay attention to what you're getting. I tend to wait for good deals on mics I know something about and pounce - I don't go looking at new product much. I prefer to get a relatively cheap price on a fairly expensive mic when I can rather than paying store price. I totally agree with your points as broad generalities, I'm just saying there are now some options that buck those trends. The 3U thing started on GS when Dennis (KidVybes, RIP) discovered them. You buy directly from the guy who designs them and owns the small factory. It's unique. He's been around 20+ years, designing and building for other companies. People in that sphere know who he is. Very high quality stuff he makes. Anyway, not to hijack this into a 3U thing, they're just the most obvious outfit that's flipped the script on the traditional "cheap chinese mics" stigma. I don't disagree with your points, I just don't think they apply as universally as they once did with regard to cheap mics.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 13, 2017 15:55:39 GMT -6
Cheap mics no longer suck, but they don't bring what the big boys bring to the party either. As an engineer/ producer mic choice is still are most influential sonic weapon, it's nice to know their are more useable options in the crayon box and even nicer to know we don't have to choose car or mic to color a decent purple dragon! Better to use pastels than crayons...
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Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 13, 2017 17:43:18 GMT -6
A couple weeks ago we had a band come over renting the place for a couple hours rehearsal. Just for the halibut I stuck up a single KM84 (my cost -$1000) high in the room and got a better recording with that than I might have got by close micing everything with lesser (but not cheap) mics. Let's hear it.
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 13, 2017 20:07:53 GMT -6
I just wanted to let you all know that I think those two mics work good. The Samson sounds very good on my voice and I liked it two times over my UMT 70 or my TLM 102.
Anyway I decide from case to case. If a cheap microphone works- why not.
BTW I am ordering at 3U next week.
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Post by scumbum on Mar 13, 2017 21:20:00 GMT -6
I cant believe it. Told a friend about the cheap Samson mic which is not bad on vocals and guitars, and the best of it all it has low noise and a high voltage output. Perfect for tracking a low SPL solo guitar picking tune. www.samsontech.com/samson/products/microphones/condenser-microphones/mtr201/He told me to try this one too and gave it to me for a week. www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_sc450.htmUnexpected but it is not bad too, works not as low noise as the Samson one, but has nice responsive transients an a nice proximity effect. It should be illegal to produce a good microphone at this low price. Which one do you like better ? The Samson sounds good . I'm loving the AKG P120 (black version) on vocals . Its a little thin , but with a little low mid boost I'm really happy with it . Cheap mics are crazy good these days .
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Post by mhbunch on Mar 13, 2017 21:24:17 GMT -6
Maybe I got a lemon, but my 3U warbler comes nowhere close to a km84 or u87 or any of the other big dog mics at the studio I work at. Don't get me wrong, it's an amazing mic for the price. I use it on hihat, maybe a background vocal.
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Post by scumbum on Mar 13, 2017 21:24:24 GMT -6
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Post by ragan on Mar 13, 2017 21:58:07 GMT -6
Well, 'voiced' like a 47 would be the Warbler MKII (or MKIID which denotes multipattern). I think he has a tube offering of that same voicing but I've not heard any of his tube mics. He may have a GZ47Fet? I think he does. That would be the sort of 'deluxe' version of the Warbler MKII. AMI tranny instead of his own, and a few other component upgrades.
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Post by ragan on Mar 13, 2017 22:03:06 GMT -6
Maybe I got a lemon, but my 3U warbler comes nowhere close to a km84 or u87 or any of the other big dog mics at the studio I work at. Don't get me wrong, it's an amazing mic for the price. I use it on hihat, maybe a background vocal. Yeah who knows. I didn't think the Warbler MKID was very far off from a vintage U87 when I compared. https%3A//soundcloud.com/fir_out/vox-warbler-mkid-vs-u87https%3A//soundcloud.com/fir_out/vox-u87-vs-warbler-mkidhttps%3A//soundcloud.com/fir_out/warbler-mkid-vs-u87-ohhttps%3A//soundcloud.com/fir_out/u87-vs-warbler-mkid-ohAnd since you mention the KM84, I compared 3U's like $100 Teal CM-1 to a KM84. Obviously the CM-1 is an LDC but it always struck me as sounding a little bit like a good SDC so I EQ'd the CM-1 to see how close I could get it to the KM84. I got it closer the next morning actually, but I was just doing it for shits and giggles. https%3A//soundcloud.com/fir_out/cm-1-acousticshttps%3A//soundcloud.com/fir_out/km84-acoustics
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 14, 2017 3:00:21 GMT -6
A couple weeks ago we had a band come over renting the place for a couple hours rehearsal. Just for the halibut I stuck up a single KM84 (my cost -$1000) high in the room and got a better recording with that than I might have got by close micing everything with lesser (but not cheap) mics. Let's hear it. First, how do I upload audio files here? I don't use sites like Soundcloud, whatever. Second, it was a rehearsal by a cover band - wouldn't there be copyright issues?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2017 4:20:49 GMT -6
OK, I got a few cheap t.bone mics over time, and some of them are really good not only for the price. And it is true, QC is not nearly as bad as 10 or 15 years ago. I once bought two small condensors for experiments or as donor mics, they were so close as if they were matched. Couldn't tell them apart on the test recording. It's a few years ago, so i don't know, which ones they were... Good thing here is, that we have 30 days money-back warranty from the retailer Thomann who brands these china mics. If the QC failed, or you don't like it, you send it back and that's it. E.g. i was surprised about the sound of the SC1100, very uncomplicated LDC, if you only use cardiodid (the other characteristics suck a bit on this mic), it's a bit on the noisier end and don't expect thick vintage mids, but really usable all in all, i got an SCT700 for 47-ish DIY donor hardware, and really, for that pricing it is already very cool stock. Sure there would be a use, and if it fits your voice, you got a really great deal. Just listened to jazznoise's production with their SCT800 (on the C12ish side) and ribbons. Usable. Obviously. The result sounds good. I like to hear about the Samson. Another option for really affordable money. Worth a try. OK, it was a time, when you could expect the majority of mics in a batch having flaws and beeing disappointed if you compared against the classic workhorses. IMHO, a lot happened reg. quality in China. If China = bad QC, then it is bad QC no matter what brand. The pricing differences are really questionable. (If you go as far as to comparing guitars, the quality and QC difference between pricy brands and low end is even smaller, and the price differences are ridiculous sometimes.) Most of the time, i like a good dynamic mic on voice, and love the 441, but these condensers aren't bad at all. If you have a specific use for them, you don't need them to be allrounders at these prices... Low end, hi end, if it works, who cares. Nowadays it is probably harder to justify having a huge locker full of vintage german mics. Especially if you don't have the clientel that is willing to pay for it ... let alone as a hobbyist.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2017 5:16:21 GMT -6
Samson MTR 201 is a great mike ( I did return mine though, as believe it or not I found it too dark!) Has anyone tried these Fame mics? www.dv247.com/microphones/fame-pro-series-vt-67-tube-microphone--200806 They've got a main German distributor I think. The reason I asked is that they were flagged up elsewhere by kidvybes, who I never really had the pleasure to speak to via the net, but know his opinions were held in high regard.
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 14, 2017 5:50:02 GMT -6
Samson MTR 201 is a great mike ( I did return mine though, as believe it or not I found it too dark!) Has anyone tried these Fame mics? www.dv247.com/microphones/fame-pro-series-vt-67-tube-microphone--200806 They've got a main German distributor I think. The reason I asked is that they were flagged up elsewhere by kidvybes, who I never really had the pleasure to speak to via the net, but know his opinions were held in high regard. Yes the 201 can be dark, but is very EQ responsive and that the reason why it stayed here. Never heard about those Fame Mics but Fame is house Branding by the German retailer - "Music Store"
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Post by Ward on Mar 14, 2017 8:50:55 GMT -6
Those cheap mics are the bomb dot com . . . snap these up, fast!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 14, 2017 9:19:52 GMT -6
OK, best "cheap" mic I've ever heard, the Cascade Vin-Jet with the Lundahl transformer. At $350 new, less used, you could make an album with that thing and not feel you're missing anything. It just kills every attempt at a knock-off of a classic mic I've ever heard.
I haven't personally heard the new Warm Audio or Stam U87 clones yet, but from the files I've heard posted, they both seem really promising. They're relatively very well priced, but technically, for purposes of this thread, they're not "cheap", more like "affordable".
If you really want cheap, just buy a Share SM58. Use it with a good preamp and you'll be surprised, even for a led vocal. I don't know why so many people use SM57's for close miking guitar cabinets, I think the 58 gives a bigger, more alive sound. A little more room in the track ends up sounding better to me than close miking. We don't hear guitars with our ears 6" from the speaker cabinet do we.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 14, 2017 9:29:46 GMT -6
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