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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 21, 2017 21:11:43 GMT -6
A point can be made from many points in this industry towards others. If you build mics or gear from kits... are you taking money from gear manufacturers..? If you repair your own gear.... are you doing techs out of business? If you release music onto the internet for free..... are you contributing to the demise of the industry? If you use anyone for anything in any room but the top, are you denigrating the industry? If you design and build gear/code plug ins...and base it on the iconic gear of the past.... are you not using someone elses reputation and history to try and leverage your own? I would suggest respectfully that we be careful about being in a glass house and throwing verbal stone.... .and applying morals/ethics that could immediately be levelled back against us. Cheers Wiz 1. Yes. 2. Yes. 3. Yes. 4. Yes. 5. Yes. Lets not kid ourselves about what is happening. Just because we don't like the answers, doesn't mean they aren't true. Come on dude, that's just ludicrous
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Post by svart on Feb 21, 2017 21:16:32 GMT -6
Well, I'm looking down at the whole picture. Artists traded their power for fame when they signed contracts that gave record companies total control over their music. Now they have no power in the industry at all, which is apparent by the way the top echelons control all of the media delivery services, keeping the artist poor, while reaping the benefits of their work. That's not capitalism, or free-market. That's monopolies that have grown from the ignorance of those who've been programmed to believe in the system. The first thing to do is to boycott the industry and destroy it by depriving it of the money it needs to survive. The problem is that people as a whole just don't care. Artists continue to hang onto the dream of fame and stardom (read: vindication of their art), or the viewers at home watching a show continue to watch (read: living vicariously through their favorite), or simply those consumers who just want cheap tunes to bob their head to as they listen mindlessly at work while typing their reports. The industry then promotes itself through the "grammys" and other awards shows where they simply pat themselves on the back and parade "stars" around to keep people believing in the "dream" that is only possible through the blessing of The Industry. I'm trying my best to do my part by not using services that aim to continue to dole out someone's hard work as commodity. I don't use Itunes or any of the streaming services. I don't have any subscriptions to anything like that. I still buy CD's of bands I like. I buy all my software in legit ways, and I try to be fair and balanced with every artist I work with, and promote their work by steering folks to the pay-for links of their work if the band has them to offer. I also boycott all automated checkout machines at stores, and will ask the manager to have a human check me out if there isn't one already available.. That's what I believe in, that I have the power to do something, even if it's small and won't make a huge difference in the end. I see these automated services as a way to process more credit card transactions, more quickly, while selling the artist on the idea that they'll save tons of money and get reasonable results. I have to believe that most of the people who would use this type of stuff wouldn't know a good master fro a bad one as long as the level is hot, and the highs are higher and lows are lower. However, the reality is that this is taking the "service" aspect out of a service-based industry, and turning it into nothing more than automated transactions. It's even more sad that folks are defending this by using the same marketing speak that the industry uses to take away the power from the artist. So I'm just a dolt and you've got it all figured out? Not at all. I thought my diatribe was in line with your thinking.. I might be mistaken..
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 21, 2017 21:25:03 GMT -6
I've stayed away from this thread so far because it can upset some who's income is on the line. to be blunt. if a business is not making money then the business is not working. we can point our fingers at many things or we can change the business model. the industry has moved on. it is not what it was. not because its broken but because things evolve. That's unfortunately the conclusion that I've come to.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 21, 2017 21:30:41 GMT -6
Sorry. I got worked up.
Anyway, I'm still waiting on my coupon.
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Post by colinleonard on Feb 21, 2017 23:03:00 GMT -6
Sorry. I got worked up. Anyway, I'm still waiting on my coupon. Hey John, I sent you a coupon at 4:02pm yesterday via email. Maybe it got spammed?
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Post by keymod on Feb 22, 2017 4:19:38 GMT -6
So, is it really possible to master a single, or one song at a time - on different days/etc? I always have had the impression that Mastering is used to bring an entire album into a cohesive audio realm. If the process, whatever it is, is just manipulating volume and eq levels, wouldn't/shouldn't that simply be considered an extension of mixing? Semantics, I suppose, but just a thought regarding definitions. Now, using Wiz and Mr. Ohllson (sp?) as an example - I purchased Wiz's latest CD when it came out and have to say it is the "best-sounding" CD I've heard in a long time. Almost every other CD I listen to, regardless of the system it's being played on, end's up grating on me in some way over extended listening. Wiz's sounds nice the entire way through. I credit Wiz's skill at mixing, but also - maybe even more importantly, Bob's skill at Mastering. That would be my benchmark for any work I could ever put out. How I could attain it, I don't know. But, I hope good human mastering engineers will always be available as an option.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 8:18:11 GMT -6
removed
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 22, 2017 8:20:00 GMT -6
Just a bit of a fun comparison.... ( monitoring's always an issue for me). The mix won't be up to you guys' standard, but any preferences? Close or miles apart? I prefer A by a good amount.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 22, 2017 8:49:05 GMT -6
A has a much better vibe all around to me. Revrb is more alive, probably from the compression style/EQ.
Snowflake, was this done with ARIA? If so, which algorithm did you use for A?
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Post by wiz on Feb 22, 2017 15:13:38 GMT -6
Again, I seem to be the opposite of people... B more dynamic range and clarity.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by M57 on Feb 22, 2017 18:22:35 GMT -6
So I used my coupon to give Aria a test drive. I moderately compressed my tune, but not as much as I felt was necessary, left about 6db of headroom and fed it to Aria.
Both A and D ended up with a dynamic range of 5 on the TT meter, so I didn't even bother trying C. B came in at a very tight 7 (6.70,6.44) and E at loose 10 (10.35, 9.98). Now I've been playing with mastering this one myself for a while now, and for me the sweet spot is in the 8-9 range (go figure).
So Colin, I don't know if you're still reading this, but it sure would be nice if I had more control over the DR. Certainly, if I had an idea of what it would be before even submitting, then I'd have no one to blame but myself. I can understand why you wouldn't want to give people too many choices. Equipment time, and perhaps even more importantly, confusing the customer with too many options/choices. So my thought is that you could, on your site, have a chart that generally outlines what each letter choice outputs given a few input parameters.
So for instance, my tune had a DR of 13 going in with 6db of headroom. Would ARIA's output DR be any different if it only had 2db of headroom? If there is a direct correlation between any of these input parameters and the output or is it not that simple? (i.e. frequency distribution may have an impact, etc.) Certainly, a simple chart would go a long way, even if it yields just an "estimate." You could bury it on the site for "Advance Users" for all I care. As it is, right now I'd be hesitant to spend $20 possibly two or even three times on one song to get it where I want it.
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Post by colinleonard on Feb 22, 2017 19:42:36 GMT -6
So I used my coupon to give Aria a test drive. I moderately compressed my tune, but not as much as I felt was necessary, left about 6db of headroom and fed it to Aria. Both A and D ended up with a dynamic range of 5 on the TT meter, so I didn't even bother trying C. B came in at a very tight 7 (6.70,6.44) and E at loose 10 (10.35, 9.98). Now I've been playing with mastering this one myself for a while now, and for me the sweet spot is in the 8-9 range (go figure). So Colin, I don't know if you're still reading this, but it sure would be nice if I had more control over the DR. Certainly, if I had an idea of what it would be before even submitting, then I'd have no one to blame but myself. I can understand why you wouldn't want to give people too many choices. Equipment time, and perhaps even more importantly, confusing the customer with too many options/choices. So my thought is that you could, on your site, have a chart that generally outlines what each letter choice outputs given a few input parameters. So for instance, my tune had a DR of 13 going in with 6db of headroom. Would ARIA's output DR be any different if it only had 2db of headroom? If there is a direct correlation between any of these input parameters and the output or is it not that simple? (i.e. frequency distribution may have an impact, etc.) Certainly, a simple chart would go a long way, even if it yields just an "estimate." You could bury it on the site for "Advance Users" for all I care. As it is, right now I'd be hesitant to spend $20 possibly two or even three times on one song to get it where I want it. But wait, how does it sound? People crack me up taking about meter numbers. Frequency balance of the song has a ton to do with a DR meter and is why it isn't necessarily that relevant for a master. You need an eqd system like lufs. That being said going by ear is the best bet. I'll try and check out the mix tomorrow and see what I think. This thing is really inexpensive for what it is. The subscriptions are so you'll have plenty of chances to tweak things.
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Post by M57 on Feb 22, 2017 20:25:25 GMT -6
Hey Colin, It sounds great and I want to use it - but even as I was listening to the mix that metered at 7 (before metering it), I was thinking it was just too crushed. I never mix towards a number, but I do mix and then check. I don't need to meter it to know if I like it. But as I suspected, there was a great deal of difference between B and E, and I want something in between. I'm not asking for you to change anything in terms of the algorithms/settings. They're great. I'm simply asking if there's a way that I can know how to set things up on my end such that I have more confidence in the outcome. For instance, if I used less compression on the 2, could I expect the B option to be end up with a bit more dynamic range?
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Post by colinleonard on Feb 22, 2017 20:36:23 GMT -6
Hey Colin, It sounds great and I want to use it - but even as I was listening to the mix that metered at 7 (before metering it), I was thinking it was just too crushed. I never mix towards a number, but I do mix and then check. I don't need to meter it to know if I like it. But as I suspected, there was a great deal of difference between B and E, and I want something in between. I'm not asking for you to change anything in terms of the algorithms/settings. They're great. I'm simply asking if there's a way that I can know how to set things up on my end such that I have more confidence in the outcome. For instance, if I used less compression on the 2, could I expect the B option to be end up with a bit more dynamic range? Ok I'll listen tomorrow. I'm confused because Mix Type A should be quieter than B.
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Post by M57 on Feb 22, 2017 20:44:01 GMT -6
Sorry My bad.. Mix A 6.70 6.44 MiX B 5.36 5.22 Mix D 5.18 4.99 Mix E 10.55 9.98
There's just nothing from 7 to 10. That's a pretty big hole; honestly that's where most of my home mastering sits before I ever check a meter.
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Post by colinleonard on Feb 22, 2017 21:44:04 GMT -6
Sorry My bad.. Mix A 6.70 6.44 MiX B 5.36 5.22 Mix D 5.18 4.99 Mix E 10.55 9.98 There's just nothing from 7 to 10. That's a pretty big hole; honestly that's where most of my home mastering sits before I ever check a meter. Thanks for your feedback. We will definitely keep adding functionality to the system as we move forward. I'm pretty happy with it right now. I think it can both compete well with top tier pro mastering and also be very dynamic and pretty with dimension that can't be done just in the digital domain. Ps who picked this blue background? This is the best looking forum color combo ever
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 4:24:22 GMT -6
Thanks for having a listen and commenting jcoutu1, Martin John Butler, wiz. There were about 20 people in all had a sneeky peeky. Some one suggested (here or elsewhere?) that if you only have one song to upload somewhere why not just throw it through a limiter. Mix A. was the Aria mix ( the setting was the default "B" setting, Martin). Mix B. was the mix with a slight bit broadband comp (plugin) and then put through Voxengo Elephant to try and equal the gain. Interesting that some of of my other limiter plugs spat the dummy trying to reach these volumes. My one concern at these volumes would be the effect of radio station compression on this hot a mix if that was where you were headed. You may need a different mix for that.
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Post by avgatzeblouz on Feb 23, 2017 9:17:25 GMT -6
Hi everyone, I've been following this thread, and overwhelmed as we were by all the talk about where this industry is going (meaning, our jobs), we did not discuss very much the sound of this Aria thing. I must say I was very skeptical at first, so I downloaded the masters A and E from wiz's song, and... I did not like them at all. I must say, technically it does work, and I agree with the convenience of having something loud for 19$. But the feeling of the song and the emotionnal appeal are all gone, at least for me. Am I the only one to feel that ? I must be cautious, as this is just one shot, but from that listening, I say that to me it is worth 19$, but not more. Never mind the amazing gear being used, I don't like the final result, it is generic and boring, although the song is not. What do you guys think ?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 23, 2017 9:44:17 GMT -6
My wife doesn't have a dog in the race, and she liked A.
I felt that A brought the music right to me. I also think it will translate well into earbud formats and on computer speakers. If given time and money, it's likely Wiz could get a bit closer the best of both worlds, but I didn't feel it lost the emotional content, I felt it was reaching out to me more. Maybe it would be different on my stereo listening system, but on my monitors, both masters sounded good, and better than the original to me.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 23, 2017 11:59:13 GMT -6
to be blunt. if a business is not making money then the business is not working. we can point our fingers at many things or we can change the business model. the industry has moved on. it is not what it was. not because its broken but because things evolve. I'm going to comment on this because I also own part of a business that manufactures $40M worth of shower doors. We also own a glass business. So, we sell very expensive frameless luxury shower doors to wealthy people and less expensive framed doors to hotels and other commercial enterprises. If the government allowed our shower door business to (a) have it's products stolen by individual with no consequences and (b) allow other companies to let others use our product without consequences our business would be dead. This "evolved" idea is bullshit. It's government sanctioned theft. You want to pay for the best frameless shower door? Pay us upfront. Otherwise go to Lowes and install it yourself. Oh yeah, Lowes isn't giving it away either. They're not "evolved" and either are we. Marriot wants 150 of our shower doors so that their guests can take a shower? They pay us upfront for the door and then pay for the installation. And guess what? We pay the installers. We're not able to make them do work for free. They' haven't "evolved" either. The business won't "evolve" like the music business because the government won't allow it. Here's my view, which is a macroeconomic view: As we approach an increasined welfare state due to technological advances that are destrying the labor market, the government realized that the masses needed some basic things to be cheap and/or free. So, music is almost entirely free, food for the masses is cheap and cheap street drugs are available. This is not capitalism, it's palliative social planning for those who have no capital and no opportunity to have stainable capital. In my view, it's technological driven devolution, not evolution, and the people will either be palliated or not. We'll see.
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Post by avgatzeblouz on Feb 23, 2017 12:38:32 GMT -6
My wife doesn't have a dog in the race, and she liked A. I felt that A brought the music right to me. I also think it will translate well into earbud formats and on computer speakers. If given time and money, it's likely Wiz could get a bit closer the best of both worlds, but I didn't feel it lost the emotional content, I felt it was reaching out to me more. Maybe it would be different on my stereo listening system, but on my monitors, both masters sounded good, and better than the original to me. Wow, I felt the opposite ! I will listen today in the studio. Cheers !
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Post by jeromemason on Feb 23, 2017 14:24:51 GMT -6
to be blunt. if a business is not making money then the business is not working. we can point our fingers at many things or we can change the business model. the industry has moved on. it is not what it was. not because its broken but because things evolve. I'm going to comment on this because I also own part of a business that manufactures $40M worth of shower doors. We also own a glass business. So, we sell very expensive frameless luxury shower doors to wealthy people and less expensive framed doors to hotels and other commercial enterprises. If the government allowed our shower door business to (a) have it's products stolen by individual with no consequences and (b) allow other companies to let others use our product without consequences our business would be dead. This "evolved" idea is bullshit. It's government sanctioned theft. You want to pay for the best frameless shower door? Pay us upfront. Otherwise go to Lowes and install it yourself. Oh yeah, Lowes isn't giving it away either. They're not "evolved" and either are we. Marriot wants 150 of our shower doors so that their guests can take a shower? They pay us upfront for the door and then pay for the installation. And guess what? We pay the installers. We're not able to make them do work for free. They' haven't "evolved" either. The business won't "evolve" like the music business because the government won't allow it. Here's my view, which is a macroeconomic view: As we approach an increasined welfare state due to technological advances that are destrying the labor market, the government realized that the masses needed some basic things to be cheap and/or free. So, music is almost entirely free, food for the masses is cheap and cheap street drugs are available. This is not capitalism, it's palliative social planning for those who have no capital and no opportunity to have stainable capital. In my view, it's technological driven devolution, not evolution, and the people will either be palliated or not. We'll see. Interesting perspective. What bothers me is why music needs to be in that group but videos and movies do not? The reason is because the music industry was light years behind the film industry in recognizing who's palms to grease as the market for digital media was created.
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Post by terryrocks on Feb 23, 2017 14:39:03 GMT -6
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Post by stormymondays on Feb 23, 2017 14:40:58 GMT -6
Well, I tested ARIA a few minutes ago. I fed it my most recent almost-finished mix, and chose "A". It came back sounding wonderfully! I wish I had used the service before I sent the track to some possible featured artists. In my case, for my song, and based upon just one listen through my DT880 Pro cans, it brought up the emotion, made it sound more alive. I'll compare it to my mix tomorrow at the studio, but it seems like this could be money well spent, especially if you need to send out references.
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Post by wiz on Feb 23, 2017 14:54:45 GMT -6
Hi everyone, I've been following this thread, and overwhelmed as we were by all the talk about where this industry is going (meaning, our jobs), we did not discuss very much the sound of this Aria thing. I must say I was very skeptical at first, so I downloaded the masters A and E from wiz's song, and... I did not like them at all. I must say, technically it does work, and I agree with the convenience of having something loud for 19$. But the feeling of the song and the emotionnal appeal are all gone, at least for me. Am I the only one to feel that ? I must be cautious, as this is just one shot, but from that listening, I say that to me it is worth 19$, but not more. Never mind the amazing gear being used, I don't like the final result, it is generic and boring, although the song is not. What do you guys think ? Hey welcome! I am really glad you commented ... its great that people feel that they dont have to blow smoke... cheers Wiz
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