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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 17, 2017 23:11:23 GMT -6
Hey guys, Colin Leonard here. Thanks for the kind words about Aria. We've worked really hard on it and have had great results. Mr Holmes, I can check this out but are you sure you chose Mix Type A? Also, Mix Type E is actually the least loud so if it really did distort on A remastering on E (which is free) would fix it. If it did distort on A my guess is you need more mix buss compression to control the bass a bit better. Distortion on A is pretty hard to do. The only other time I saw that happen it was a phase problem in the low end that caused it. Wiz I did try A. It contains tons of dynamics peaking at - 9 dbfs.... The decission the algo made is just stupid. I can send you the two files via PM. If I would do it myself with plug ins it would turn 100% nice. Maybe the service is not ready for every style of music? Good to have you here Colin. Seems like a pretty cool service.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 17, 2017 23:19:45 GMT -6
Well, I've downloaded the files and listened to the first few seconds of both. I'll listen more extensively in a moment, but what (quite literally) jumps out at me is that the mastered version is a hell of a lot louder than the unmastered version. That makes it really difficult to do a fair direct comparison with the player software (VLC) on my online computer. My studio computer has no internet and to get it online requires running a hundred foot cable in to my router and freeing up a port for it. As we know, the brain automatically interprets a louder source as better sounding. I'll post more after listening to more of the files. Hi John thanks for going to the trouble.. if you want I could attempt to volume match them for you if that makes it easier...cant transfer by USB drive? cheers Wiz Yeah, I guess I could dig out a USB key, but then I'd need to futz around volume matching - and then take another break to clear my ears.... but I think I was able to throw the darts close enough to the bullseye to form an opinion. First I have to say it's a very lovely song, great job. I found the exercise more interesting than I expected - the robot did a better job than I'd have thought. For a typical job for a pop recording to today's (low, IMO) standards, it was certainly acceptable. However, I didn't really like it, it thought it lacked subtlety, something which is all too lacking in a majority of today's commercial releases. The original has a delicate, wistful, even plaintive quality to the vocal that I found quite endearing. Much of this was gone in the mastered version. The mastered version also put a boost on the bass and drums that is very much in line with the sound of "modern" commercial releases that I found inappropriate to the music. It's as if the mastering robot applied a charm removal filter. My verdict: Close, but no cigar. EDIT: I have a feeling that if I'd been listening on better speakers (I used a pair of old grey cone KRK Rokit 6s that I use for computer speakers) that the differences would have been much more obvious and unsubtle, given that the KRKs are not exactly the most detailed speakers in the world.
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Post by wiz on Feb 17, 2017 23:44:49 GMT -6
Hi John thanks for going to the trouble.. if you want I could attempt to volume match them for you if that makes it easier...cant transfer by USB drive? cheers Wiz Yeah, I guess I could dig out a USB key, but then I'd need to futz around volume matching - and then take another break to clear my ears.... but I think I was able to throw the darts close enough to the bullseye to form an opinion. First I have to say it's a very lovely song, great job. I found the exercise more interesting than I expected - the robot did a better job than I'd have thought. For a typical job for a pop recording to today's (low, IMO) standards, it was certainly acceptable. However, I didn't really like it, it thought it lacked subtlety, something which is all too lacking in a majority of today's commercial releases. The original has a delicate, wistful, even plaintive quality to the vocal that I found quite endearing. Much of this was gone in the mastered version. The mastered version also put a boost on the bass and drums that is very much in line with the sound of "modern" commercial releases that I found inappropriate to the music. It's as if the mastering robot applied a charm removal filter. My verdict: Close, but no cigar. EDIT: I have a feeling that if I'd been listening on better speakers (I used a pair of old grey cone KRK Rokit 6s that I use for computer speakers) that the differences would have been much more obvious and unsubtle, given that the KRKs are not exactly the most detailed speakers in the world. Hey John thanks so much for taking the time to download , listen and provide your thoughts.. thats really cool. I get the feeling, that I can't see it replacing a person for the job that I use a mastering engineer for...(making an album, sequencing songs, finding things I missed, etc etd... and thats a good thing... the artistic decisions are key...) I think it does a really surprisingly good job, on that one tune I have submitted, and could be a useful tool in the preparation of mixes to go off to mastering , client previews etc. cheers and thanks again Wiz
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Post by wiz on Feb 17, 2017 23:46:17 GMT -6
Hey guys, Colin Leonard here. Thanks for the kind words about Aria. We've worked really hard on it and have had great results. Mr Holmes, I can check this out but are you sure you chose Mix Type A? Also, Mix Type E is actually the least loud so if it really did distort on A remastering on E (which is free) would fix it. If it did distort on A my guess is you need more mix buss compression to control the bass a bit better. Distortion on A is pretty hard to do. The only other time I saw that happen it was a phase problem in the low end that caused it. Wiz I did try A. It contains tons of dynamics peaking at - 9 dbfs.... The decission the algo made is just stupid. I can send you the two files via PM. If I would do it myself with plug ins it would turn 100% nice. Maybe the service is not ready for every style of music? Hi Colin thanks so much for accepting my invitation to come over here and participate. Please let us know when you follow up Mr Holmes mix... would love to get some idea of what happened there. cheers Wiz
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 18, 2017 7:10:30 GMT -6
Hey guys, Colin Leonard here. Thanks for the kind words about Aria. We've worked really hard on it and have had great results. Mr Holmes, I can check this out but are you sure you chose Mix Type A? Also, Mix Type E is actually the least loud so if it really did distort on A remastering on E (which is free) would fix it. If it did distort on A my guess is you need more mix buss compression to control the bass a bit better. Distortion on A is pretty hard to do. The only other time I saw that happen it was a phase problem in the low end that caused it. Wiz I did try A. It contains tons of dynamics peaking at - 9 dbfs.... The decission the algo made is just stupid. I can send you the two files via PM. If I would do it myself with plug ins it would turn 100% nice. Maybe the service is not ready for every style of music? Colin. I did choose master again with type E. If I press the master again button nothing happens, no e-mail no your mix is being processed. I think the idea is not bad at all, it needs some polishing. You also should offer more expensive human-mastering-session just in case the computer is not working the way like human would expect it.
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Post by colinleonard on Feb 18, 2017 7:50:53 GMT -6
Please contact me through a support email on the site. We never got contacted in this case that you had an issue. I can't find anything under Mr Holmes as far as users. There has only been one other issue with Master Again and it was because the clients files were corrupt. In general Aria masters a lot of songs without any issues. I do offer conventional mastering at SING Mastering. Hey guys, Colin Leonard here. Thanks for the kind words about Aria. We've worked really hard on it and have had great results. Mr Holmes, I can check this out but are you sure you chose Mix Type A? Also, Mix Type E is actually the least loud so if it really did distort on A remastering on E (which is free) would fix it. If it did distort on A my guess is you need more mix buss compression to control the bass a bit better. Distortion on A is pretty hard to do. The only other time I saw that happen it was a phase problem in the low end that caused it. Colin. I did choose master again with type E. If I press the master again button nothing happens, no e-mail no your mix is being processed. I think the idea is not bad at all, it needs some polishing. You also should offer more expensive human-mastering-session just in case the computer is not working the way like human would expect it.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 18, 2017 22:07:14 GMT -6
Hey - it's $19...I haven't listened yet, but hell if it's better than my hack ass, then it's worth it. I can't ever seem to get my mixes as loud as everybody else's, so I could do all my M/S 2 bus witchcraft and then send it out for loudeninging...ing
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Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 18, 2017 23:34:37 GMT -6
Hey - it's $19...I haven't listened yet, but hell if it's better than my hack ass, then it's worth it. I can't ever seem to get my mixes as loud as everybody else's, so I could do all my M/S 2 bus witchcraft and then send it out for loudeninging...ing Just posted 6 new masters in the what are you workin on forum that have analog HW compression ( SA4000 ). They are my productions. I haven't been as due-diligent as needed with my work recently son I devoted some time to my own stuff to get it right audio quality wise igarnering more biz... you don't have to listen but I wrote out my signal chain and you may be able to employ or experiment accordingly. Cheers!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 6:37:29 GMT -6
Hey - it's $19...I haven't listened yet, but hell if it's better than my hack ass, then it's worth it. I can't ever seem to get my mixes as loud as everybody else's, so I could do all my M/S 2 bus witchcraft and then send it out for loudeninging...ing This is what i thought, when i A/B'ed wiz's song. The loudness boost was surprising and quite transparent - well done.
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Post by wiz on Feb 19, 2017 17:02:58 GMT -6
Well, I just ponied up 49USD for 10 songs mastered within a month....
I will see how it goes.. Will report back
cheers
Wiz
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Post by wiz on Feb 19, 2017 17:13:13 GMT -6
I just remastered The Blue Green Ball, with a different setting, the original version, was their "A" ... this version is "E" This is the softest setting, I thought originally A would be the least heavy handed... I think this sounds even better.... let me know what you guys think... The Blue Green Ball - remastered using "E" setting....
cheers Wiz
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 17:23:56 GMT -6
Just got a quick listen and DR analysis. It sounds good, but i just listened to cheaper speakers... DR is 10 which some people would consider around perfect for this type of music, i guess. Maybe this makes it sound better to you. Less dynamics processing.
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Post by wiz on Feb 19, 2017 18:02:46 GMT -6
Just got a quick listen and DR analysis. It sounds good, but i just listened to cheaper speakers... DR is 10 which some people would consider around perfect for this type of music, i guess. Maybe this makes it sound better to you. Less dynamics processing. perhaps I just did another song... using A and E and liked E (lower DR) again... might be my sweet spot...8) I have written to them though.. the two remasters I did (which are free btw) going from A to E... are both 24 bit files , where as the original masters are 16. I might have screwed up and missed a check box or something.... will get back.. Its very fast the system... cheers Wiz
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 19, 2017 18:41:45 GMT -6
Hi Colin, good to see you here.
How would this work for putting an album together of tracks that have different tones and volumes because they were done at different times with similar, but different gear? Would the process be able to see the group of songs as a whole and balance them in a way that sounded like they belonged together?
I'm not suggesting that widely varying tracks can magically be made to sound like they were done in the same lovely studio. I'm saying tracks that aren't miles apart, but have some discrepancies, like the bass being light in one song, but maybe a little too heavy in another, or an edgy vocal on one track, and a smoother vocal on another, being pulled together like a mastering engineer would do for an album.
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Post by colinleonard on Feb 19, 2017 20:14:19 GMT -6
Hi, thanks. I think it works really well with the different settings available. Usually not all songs on an album will use the same mix type settings but you can mix and match and come up with a great result. I do think it might take a bit more experience as an engineer and it's a bit more DIY than what I do at SING Mastering, but for the price it's amazing. It also uses almost exactly my same equipment. I literally had the Aria system next to my system for almost three years running songs through both and comparing and teaching the Aria system what I was doing. I'll try to pull some albums it has been used on that are on iTunes and post them here. Hi Colin, good to see you here. How would this work for putting an album together of tracks that have different tones and volumes because they were done at different times with similar, but different gear? Would the process be able to see the group of songs as a whole and balance them in a way that sounded like they belonged together? I'm not suggesting that widely varying tracks can magically be made to sound like they were done in the same lovely studio. I'm saying tracks that aren't miles apart, but have some discrepancies, like the bass being light in one song, but maybe a little too heavy in another, or an edgy vocal on one track, and a smoother vocal on another, being pulled together like a mastering engineer would do for an album.
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Post by colinleonard on Feb 19, 2017 20:21:51 GMT -6
Right now all of the Mix Type settings are 16bit except E which is 24bit. E was setup as more of an audiophile setting where the other settings are more for pop music. Soon we will be adding 16bit, 24bit and MFiT automatically for every order but for now we don't charge extra to supply whatever you need. Just write us an email with your order number and we will send the requested files. Just got a quick listen and DR analysis. It sounds good, but i just listened to cheaper speakers... DR is 10 which some people would consider around perfect for this type of music, i guess. Maybe this makes it sound better to you. Less dynamics processing. perhaps I just did another song... using A and E and liked E (lower DR) again... might be my sweet spot...8) I have written to them though.. the two remasters I did (which are free btw) going from A to E... are both 24 bit files , where as the original masters are 16. I might have screwed up and missed a check box or something.... will get back.. Its very fast the system... cheers Wiz
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Post by wiz on Feb 19, 2017 22:55:00 GMT -6
Thats the second song I have done with the ARIA, this is with the E setting.... again, sounds good.
It was super fast turn around... and using DISTROKID which is how I distribute, the song is now on iTunes...so within a couple of hours from go to whoa.....
Brave new world.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by svart on Feb 20, 2017 2:30:54 GMT -6
OK, so I've been following this and holding my tongue, but I've gotta have my say and be "that guy"..
Regardless of the effectiveness of the robotic mastering, doesn't anyone else see the problem with all of this?
Systems like this are offering "good enough" service for super cheap prices, but are ultimately cutting the nuts off of authentic mastering services.
No offense to the person who created this, but I'm personally going to boycott any and every service that aims to further reduce my clientele. Before anyone says "that's the meaning of capitalism", there is a huge difference between the work ethic of bedroom engineers and that of professionals who are actively OK with further killing the industry.
It's bad enough we compete with each other over price when skill is involved, but asking me to cut my prices yet again to compete with a pre-programmed machine is a slap in the face.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 5:31:54 GMT -6
I suppose before these online mastering algo's there were T-Racks, Ozone, Voxengo etc.etc. doing much the same. I can see Landr, Aria being used by the people that would use the plugs. Most people putting good money into recording projects will still need the pro's though, surely?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 20, 2017 6:44:11 GMT -6
Systems like this are offering "good enough" service for super cheap prices, but are ultimately cutting the nuts off of authentic mastering services. I would be curious to know if this service is actually "cutting the nuts off" of his world class room at SING. Sure, it cuts the nuts off of my mastering work. I can't afford to work that cheaply, but also can't charge hundreds per song. It's the mid level guys that will get our nuts cut off.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 20, 2017 8:46:36 GMT -6
I just remastered The Blue Green Ball, with a different setting, the original version, was their "A" ... this version is "E" This is the softest setting, I thought originally A would be the least heavy handed... I think this sounds even better.... let me know what you guys think... The Blue Green Ball - remastered using "E" setting....
cheers Wiz I like the more heavily mastered version better. It glued together the intro better, giving it more immediate tension, which matched the vibe of the lyric and mood of the song imo. The less glued intro version felt sing songy to me.
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Post by colinleonard on Feb 20, 2017 9:32:13 GMT -6
I don't want to start a war here but I think that you're missing the point that these are two very different products. What I do at SING Mastering is very high end custom work and it is expensive. Aria Mastering is a very high quality budget product for DIYers who probably wouldn't use your service for the songs they use Aria on. If you don't have much mastering clientele it isn't because of an automated service or because mastering plugins are cheap. I think Aria levels the playing field and gives back to the artists and the music. Now indie musicians on a tight budget can have a quality product and have a comparison to a "mastering engineer" that should probably not be doing it and taking money from the artist. There are a lot of those guys out there. If you're truly a talented engineer who's spent years mastering your craft you'll have plenty of business based on the work you've done and word of mouth. OK, so I've been following this and holding my tongue, but I've gotta have my say and be "that guy".. Regardless of the effectiveness of the robotic mastering, doesn't anyone else see the problem with all of this? Systems like this are offering "good enough" service for super cheap prices, but are ultimately cutting the nuts off of authentic mastering services. No offense to the person who created this, but I'm personally going to boycott any and every service that aims to further reduce my clientele. Before anyone says "that's the meaning of capitalism", there is a huge difference between the work ethic of bedroom engineers and that of professionals who are actively OK with further killing the industry. It's bad enough we compete with each other over price when skill is involved, but asking me to cut my prices yet again to compete with a pre-programmed machine is a slap in the face.
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Post by thehightenor on Feb 20, 2017 9:46:17 GMT -6
The problem with these things is there is no "standard" mastering job anymore - each project, each client has a different artistic vision and aim. " For instance I'm proud to say I one of the quietest artist on CD Baby (by design) If you want to hear my music louder you have to turn your volume up, at which point you get a nice clear dynamic recording that plays louder - ooh it's like magic :-)
For others they want their music to be THE LOUDEST out there and don't care too much about the side effects of this (personally I detest LOUDLY mastered music)
Then there's every colour in between - I do a fair amount of mastering for other people and nobody has a similar target or aim - I can't see how an automated service can offer that?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 20, 2017 9:50:54 GMT -6
I just remastered The Blue Green Ball, with a different setting, the original version, was their "A" ... this version is "E" This is the softest setting, I thought originally A would be the least heavy handed... I think this sounds even better.... let me know what you guys think... The Blue Green Ball - remastered using "E" setting....
cheers Wiz I just took a listen. I prefer the A version. Seems to pull everything together a little tighter.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 10:28:26 GMT -6
wiz Like the songs, natch, do you do your own vids, they're really cool? Connection keeps dropping atm so can't do the comparison effectively. Intrigued enough to email for a free spin though. Here's a question for colinleonard - is it the job of the Mixing or Mastering engineer to make sure a track will translate well on all systems? Oh, and will all mixes go through the exact same analogue chain, and, ahem, what is that chain? * *whistles innocently** - kidding, I know you want to keep that one to yourself ... Cheers.
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