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Post by wiz on Feb 16, 2017 22:18:26 GMT -6
Just got here. Have no time to finish reading and then listen, but I'm looking forward to taking the challenge. I'll try a 15 minute mix, and see, asap. I did try Landr once. The track returned slightly improved, but no better than what I could do in 20 minutes and I could probably get more volume without distortion. If I had no time on a project when I need something quick, I could see using Landr, but only on rare occasions. This sounds like it could possibly be a much better thing.. Wiz, was that track done with ARIA? I haven't listened yet.. There are two audio files in the first post, one my mix, one ARIA's Master. The You Tube Video, is ARIA's Master. I too had tried LANDR i wasn't impressed. cheers Wiz
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Post by wiz on Feb 16, 2017 22:20:39 GMT -6
I don't think anyone will get a straight answer on what's being done with this. A number of threads at GS exist on the Aria product, and a lot of them have the owner show up and say he's not going to tell what's going on, with a bunch of folks piling on to say they aren't using it unless they are told what's going on.. I read some of a thread over there... Whilst I can understand the skepticism ... I do like to try these things out for myself, and hey... it was free...so nothing to lose. What piqued my interest, was its one guy, in house,...and he is a mastering engineer....and he tweaks as he goes.... So, I thought I would give it a shot. Have a listen Chris, give us your thoughts... maybe have a crack at it.. cheers Wiz
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Post by wiz on Feb 16, 2017 22:21:31 GMT -6
By all means, if anyone hears something about the master compared to the original that they think is poor... comment... you won't hurt my feelings, thats why I put this here.
Be constructive by all means, but sure, you hear something plain, say so.
What would be great, is if you are able to show an example of what you don't like, by providing an example of what to do and telling us how and why you did it... so we can all learn...
you know, have fun...
cheers
Wiz
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Post by gouge on Feb 17, 2017 2:12:14 GMT -6
Can't see why this type of service can't be amazing. We have software that can automatically seek and fix issues and we have hardware that is controllable by software. Put the 2 together...... Because machines can't be programmed to have taste. Sure they can, what's taste other than a bias based on analysis.
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Post by gouge on Feb 17, 2017 2:14:44 GMT -6
Can't see why this type of service can't be amazing. We have software that can automatically seek and fix issues and we have hardware that is controllable by software. Put the 2 together...... And what are the ears attached to, the software or the hardware? Just talking about this proves ears are not necessary. But That aside, can your ears look ahead?.
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Post by gouge on Feb 17, 2017 2:15:45 GMT -6
By all means, if anyone hears something about the master compared to the original that they think is poor... comment... you won't hurt my feelings, thats why I put this here. Be constructive by all means, but sure, you hear something plain, say so. What would be great, is if you are able to show an example of what you don't like, by providing an example of what to do and telling us how and why you did it... so we can all learn... you know, have fun... cheers Wiz I thought it sounded great. Gonna do this myself I think.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 17, 2017 8:58:08 GMT -6
I'm not even gonna try to top that.I think that it would take a master mastering engineer and a real budget to do any better than that track Wiz. My toes were tapping, intelligibility was vastly improved. I think I could actually accept that as a master, all things considered. Wow.
I know some incredible mastering engineers. They can take something with a knife edge and turn it into a butterknife without subtracting from the energy, but this is so damn close to that, I'm honestly impressed.
I gotta look into this for myself now, thanks Wiz. Here's the bottom line, I felt the song listening to the master.
* which mix type did you choose?
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 17, 2017 15:16:59 GMT -6
And what are the ears attached to, the software or the hardware? Just talking about this proves ears are not necessary. But That aside, can your ears look ahead?. "Just talking about this proves ears are not necessary." That is a silly comment that makes no sense. "But That aside, can your ears look ahead?." Wht would they need to? You listen, you make the necessary adjustments, you listen again. That's how all audio engineering is done. You don't leave it to machines, because machines have no musical sensibilities, no taste, and do not react emotionally to music. Look ahead might be necessary in broadcasting, to catch overs before they go out over the air, but not in mixing/mastering, unless you have a serious memory problem.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 17, 2017 15:22:48 GMT -6
Because machines can't be programmed to have taste. Sure they can, what's taste other than a bias based on analysis. Wrong. It's a judgement based on emotional reaction. Machines don't have emotions. Machines have no sense of aesthetics, either. "Analysis" is overrated. It's place is in science, not art.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 17, 2017 15:25:12 GMT -6
Sure they can, what's taste other than a bias based on analysis. Wrong. It's a decision based on emotional reaction. Machines don't have emotions. "Analysis" is overrated. It's pl;ace is in science, not art. So what do you think of the Aria master that Wiz posted? Did you listen to it?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 15:31:20 GMT -6
I got curious with the LANDR stuff since i can master for soundcloud with LANDR without cost, and tried this now on a few more mixes on private tracks. My first impression on the first mix automatically mastered was not good at all. I thought my kick had been distorted beyond acceptable. But to my surprise, other mixes sometimes work out pretty good. I see this is very depending on the single track, the accuracy of style analysis etc. obviously can lead to acceptable or to totally unacceptable results. At least, i try this on every mix now, just to see if it works out or if i throw the result away immediately. That is pretty much more than i ever expected. For sure, i would not blindly run an album thru it and call it mastered. An engineer, who has my trust would always be the preferred choice for such, no doubt.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 17, 2017 15:41:36 GMT -6
Wrong. It's a decision based on emotional reaction. Machines don't have emotions. "Analysis" is overrated. It's place is in science, not art. So what do you think of the Aria master that Wiz posted? Did you listen to it? Not yet, and I'd want to hear the original track for comparison. Be that as it may, I'm never going to trust any damn machine to make any aesthetic judgements, I'll spend the money and trust Bob's ears. He can spot odd problems that no automated analysis could ever deal with. (Voice of experience here.) He can also tweak fine details based on my feedback.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 17, 2017 15:55:48 GMT -6
So what do you think of the Aria master that Wiz posted? Did you listen to it? Not yet, and I'd want to hear the original track for comparison. Be that as it may, I'm never going to trust any damn machine to make any aesthetic judgements, I'll spend the money and trust Bob's ears. He can spot odd problems that no automated analysis could ever deal with. (Voice of experience here.) He can also tweak fine details based on my feedback. The original is posted as well.
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Post by wiz on Feb 17, 2017 17:21:41 GMT -6
I'm not even gonna try to top that.I think that it would take a master mastering engineer and a real budget to do any better than that track Wiz. My toes were tapping, intelligibility was vastly improved. I think I could actually accept that as a master, all things considered. Wow. I know some incredible mastering engineers. They can take something with a knife edge and turn it into a butterknife without subtracting from the energy, but this is so damn close to that, I'm honestly impressed. I gotta look into this for myself now, thanks Wiz. Here's the bottom line, I felt the song listening to the master. * which mix type did you choose? Hey Martin thanks for listening and commenting. I chose mix type A, which is the least louderycompressorycrushhery.... 8) cheers Wiz
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Post by wiz on Feb 17, 2017 17:29:05 GMT -6
So what do you think of the Aria master that Wiz posted? Did you listen to it? Not yet, and I'd want to hear the original track for comparison. Be that as it may, I'm never going to trust any damn machine to make any aesthetic judgements, I'll spend the money and trust Bob's ears. He can spot odd problems that no automated analysis could ever deal with. (Voice of experience here.) He can also tweak fine details based on my feedback. Can i ask please... that you take 10 mins out of your day, go listen to the original file and the Mastered file, they are both available in the first post. Rather than just make blanket, I am not ever gonna do this..I always do that... statements... It really serves to add nothing to the conversation, you are speaking about something you have never heard... thats judgemental and arrogant. As I said in my original post.. I have used and love Bob as well... and as I said...I will continue to use him for what I reckon he is best served for with my meager budgets... releasing albums... However... running off test mixes, to check on TV iPad, iPhones, etc this service is a godsend and will be part of that "pre bob o getting my stuff to master the whole album prior to release, so I can sell 57 copies and lose a bucket load of money" process that I seem to go through every year..... 8) I asked in the original post and hoped we would not head down that particular rabbit hole. I understand sometimes the written word can be taken the wrong way... but honestly if you don't even take the time to listen... how can I lend credence to your thoughts...and honestly, I would like to know what you think.. you seem to have been around a long time, and even though I haven't heard your work..I assume you know what you are talking about and would love to learn from you.... Thats why I am here... to learn and to share... not to piss with internet negativity on every post that comes along... So please John, listen, join in... say what ever you like about the mix master my songwriting singing.. tell me its great tell me it blows.. but listen to it first. cheers Wiz
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 17:57:49 GMT -6
Sounds pretty good to my ears when listening to the youtube vid. So i downloaded your files and compared gain-adjusted and blind (ABX). Btw., i already like the unmastered mix. And the difference to the master is clearly hearable, while still subtle. So, apart from normalizing and dynamics (i did not compare in the daw so i didn't look at the waveform - but the original has DR15 while the master is DR7. I was surprised and guess there are some peaks that when limited make it possible to give such an RMS boost without degrading), i do like the outcome of the ARIA mastering soundwise, too - not bad at all. That said - i would like to hear, how ARIA would work on more difficult mixes, where more obvious choices have to be made by the automation algo. Your mixes sound very good from the beginning and are not bad at all just normalized with just a very tiny bit of clean compression (and some clever limited peaks) anyway. Thanks for making this comparison thread. I like this kind of discussion very much. Especially if the material is such a nice song. :-)
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Post by wiz on Feb 17, 2017 18:10:47 GMT -6
Sounds pretty good to my ears when listening to the youtube vid. So i downloaded your files and compared gain-adjusted and blind (ABX). Btw., i already like the unmastered mix. And the difference to the master is clearly hearable, while still subtle. So, apart from normalizing and dynamics (i did not compare in the daw so i didn't look at the waveform - but the original has DR15 while the master is DR7. I was surprised and guess there are some peaks that when limited make it possible to give such an RMS boost without degrading), i do like the outcome of the ARIA mastering soundwise, too - not bad at all. That said - i would like to hear, how ARIA would work on more difficult mixes, where more obvious choices have to be made by the automation algo. Your mixes sound very good from the beginning and are not bad at all just normalized with just a very tiny bit of clean compression anyway. Thanks for making this comparison thread. I like this kind of discussion very much. Especially if the material is such a nice song. :-) thanks for taking the time to listen and comment... appreciate it. Yes, I think there are some real obvious limitations with this online process.... but.. I must say.. I am impressed on that one song. cheers Wiz
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 17, 2017 20:00:06 GMT -6
To be fair I tried the Automatic Aria mastering and one of my best mixes came back disorted.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 17, 2017 22:06:55 GMT -6
Just got here. Have no time to finish reading and then listen, but I'm looking forward to taking the challenge. I'll try a 15 minute mix, and see, asap. I did try Landr once. The track returned slightly improved, but no better than what I could do in 20 minutes and I could probably get more volume without distortion. If I had no time on a project when I need something quick, I could see using Landr, but only on rare occasions. This sounds like it could possibly be a much better thing.. Wiz, was that track done with ARIA? I haven't listened yet.. There are two audio files in the first post, one my mix, one ARIA's Master. The You Tube Video, is ARIA's Master. I too had tried LANDR i wasn't impressed. cheers Wiz Well, I've downloaded the files and listened to the first few seconds of both. I'll listen more extensively in a moment, but what (quite literally) jumps out at me is that the mastered version is a hell of a lot louder than the unmastered version. That makes it really difficult to do a fair direct comparison with the player software (VLC) on my online computer. My studio computer has no internet and to get it online requires running a hundred foot cable in to my router and freeing up a port for it. As we know, the brain automatically interprets a louder source as better sounding. I'll post more after listening to more of the files.
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Post by wiz on Feb 17, 2017 22:30:05 GMT -6
There are two audio files in the first post, one my mix, one ARIA's Master. The You Tube Video, is ARIA's Master. I too had tried LANDR i wasn't impressed. cheers Wiz Well, I've downloaded the files and listened to the first few seconds of both. I'll listen more extensively in a moment, but what (quite literally) jumps out at me is that the mastered version is a hell of a lot louder than the unmastered version. That makes it really difficult to do a fair direct comparison with the player software (VLC) on my online computer. My studio computer has no internet and to get it online requires running a hundred foot cable in to my router and freeing up a port for it. As we know, the brain automatically interprets a louder source as better sounding. I'll post more after listening to more of the files. Hi John thanks for going to the trouble.. if you want I could attempt to volume match them for you if that makes it easier...cant transfer by USB drive? cheers Wiz
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Post by wiz on Feb 17, 2017 22:33:17 GMT -6
To be fair I tried the Automatic Aria mastering and one of my best mixes came back disorted. Hi thats interesting and disconcerting. Couple of quick questions... Which did you try A B C or D? You can apparently remaster the file any time you want, try a different one? Also, I wonder if headroom has anything to do with it? Mine had a shitload... did yours have much headroom (the mix you uploaded?) Any chance you can post the un mastered and mastered file, if thats cool.. understand if its not.. (client mix etc) I would send a email to them, if you are interested asking for an explanation. I have written to them, inviting them to this thread... will be interesting and hopefully they will show up here. cheers Wiz
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 17, 2017 22:42:58 GMT -6
Wiz I did try A. It contains tons of dynamics peaking at - 9 dbfs....
The decission the algo made is just stupid. I can send you the two files via PM.
If I would do it myself with plug ins it would turn 100% nice.
Maybe the service is not ready for every style of music?
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Post by wiz on Feb 17, 2017 23:00:40 GMT -6
Please do pm me links to the filed
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 17, 2017 23:01:47 GMT -6
Go to bed now will do tommorow...
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Post by colinleonard on Feb 17, 2017 23:04:12 GMT -6
Hey guys, Colin Leonard here. Thanks for the kind words about Aria. We've worked really hard on it and have had great results. Mr Holmes, I can check this out but are you sure you chose Mix Type A? Also, Mix Type E is actually the least loud so if it really did distort on A remastering on E (which is free) would fix it. If it did distort on A my guess is you need more mix buss compression to control the bass a bit better. Distortion on A is pretty hard to do. The only other time I saw that happen it was a phase problem in the low end that caused it. Wiz I did try A. It contains tons of dynamics peaking at - 9 dbfs.... The decission the algo made is just stupid. I can send you the two files via PM. If I would do it myself with plug ins it would turn 100% nice. Maybe the service is not ready for every style of music?
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