|
Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 27, 2017 15:57:59 GMT -6
You're misunderstanding. When a converter is doing a really top rate job of capturing audio ("getting out of the way"), the individual sounds it captures are nuanced and natural. Add up all those individual sounds into a mix and you get the aforementioned, depth, clarity, realism, etc. Nope. You are saying by a converter being true to its analog source this adds depth clarity and space. I definitely understand what you guys are saying and none of it makes sense... How can one converter add depth clarity space, sounds like signal processing to me. How about the converter is "true to the analog source".. what's wrong with that. So the symphony is responsible for those tones, nuances, and natural captures? It's not the player, instrument, room, signal chain, and Eng ears choosing great mic and mic placement? It's funny its the Apogee Symphony 2 as well, so burl, merging, dad, focusrite rednet, Avid and definitely SF Apollo are all broken or not getting out of the way of the analog capture? They are all somehow obstructing the full analog capture and degrading the clarity depth and space? If a converter is adding something to your signal then it's not converting its processing your audio... How do you plan for this added depth and clarity? What if I don't need the added space on this one guitar track? Does the clarity space and depth just shows up in all the right places? All I'm ever trying to do is learn to better myself so I can perfect my craft as an artist and engineer. I am not dumb by any means and the semantics you guys are using is Slate like. I am asking honest questions, where are the honest answers.. So the Apogee symphony mk2 captures so true to the analog source which allows all the nuances to be heard.... ya so do 20 other converters that aren't flavor of the day here on RGO... They're not actually saying that it's "adding" something. They're saying that it translates the source with better detail and clarity than their previous conversion.
|
|
|
Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 27, 2017 15:58:54 GMT -6
The one that was posted earlier in this thread. Apparently I missed the whole second page of replies before I posted. I also liked the reviewer's general attitude about conversion, especially including the "guy that doesn't really care" because there are just so many of those out there, it's a voice that needs to be mentioned. But when you get down to the nitty gritty the Symphony "blows away" the Scareltt and the Avid HD. Oh gotcha. I didn't notice that was posted here. Yeah, the MKII really sounds incredible there. Listen to the nuance/detail of the snare drum vs the Avid. It goes sort of 'further back' into the center. That and all the other things mentioned. Big, natural soundstage. How do you know it was the converter making the snare go further back and into the center? What if you want a upfront snare drum sound and that's the way you record it, The Apogee is going to push it further back and center it "?
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Jan 27, 2017 16:02:40 GMT -6
I would like to say that the philosophical ideas of language are coming into play here. I do not think that adding and subtracting are the right concepts so much as "translation" that jcoutu has mentioned.
The digital analog converter is in fact a transducer by definition, changing one form of energy into another. The same as a microphone or a guitar pickup or a loudspeaker.
In this instance, an analog voltage is being changed into a digital stream of bits, or the other way around.
I don't know if this academically correct, but it makes sense to me.
|
|
|
Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 27, 2017 16:03:30 GMT -6
Nope. You are saying by a converter being true to its analog source this adds depth clarity and space. I definitely understand what you guys are saying and none of it makes sense... How can one converter add depth clarity space, sounds like signal processing to me. How about the converter is "true to the analog source".. what's wrong with that. So the symphony is responsible for those tones, nuances, and natural captures? It's not the player, instrument, room, signal chain, and Eng ears choosing great mic and mic placement? It's funny its the Apogee Symphony 2 as well, so burl, merging, dad, focusrite rednet, Avid and definitely SF Apollo are all broken or not getting out of the way of the analog capture? They are all somehow obstructing the full analog capture and degrading the clarity depth and space? If a converter is adding something to your signal then it's not converting its processing your audio... How do you plan for this added depth and clarity? What if I don't need the added space on this one guitar track? Does the clarity space and depth just shows up in all the right places? All I'm ever trying to do is learn to better myself so I can perfect my craft as an artist and engineer. I am not dumb by any means and the semantics you guys are using is Slate like. I am asking honest questions, where are the honest answers.. So the Apogee symphony mk2 captures so true to the analog source which allows all the nuances to be heard.... ya so do 20 other converters that aren't flavor of the day here on RGO... They're not actually saying that it's "adding" something. They're saying that it translates the source with better detail and clarity than their previous conversion. Then they need to say that... which is subjective... which proves my point ... To quote myself: "So the Apogee symphony mk2 captures so true to the analog source which allows all the nuances to be heard.... ya so do 20 other converters that aren't flavor of the day here on RGO" Glad we got this figured out that the Apogee Symphony mk2 is anther great converter in the sea of great converters, "it's not your converters fault 😎🤓" Here I am thinking the sypmh mk2 is the magic fairy dust I have been looking for all along to get Adele type success ( big ole joke 😂😭 )
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 27, 2017 16:04:40 GMT -6
Chase, no worries man, if you put the Symphony in your room and compared it to something like an Apollo 16 or a Clarett, you'd know in an instant the Symphony sounds better. There may be some technical reasons, but these things are a sum of their parts and design, not just a converter in isolation. I know you know this. I'm only wishing I could afford one.
You know when you go to the movies, and occasionally the sound is just incredible, big, wide, three three dimensional, the Symphony sounds more like that than my new Apollo does.
The sense of space is mainly from the lower frequencies. The most musical subwoofer made is by REL, and they call them Ambience Retrieval Systems. Without it, my stereo sounds great, with it, I get a much more realistic picture of the space it was done in. One aspect of a 3D sound that's often overlooked is height. We so often concentrate on width and depth, we overlook height. A great music system delivers real height too.
|
|
|
Post by sozocaps on Jan 27, 2017 16:05:46 GMT -6
The only way to see what is happening exactly is with some sort of transfer function which is essentially what you are doing when you compare a live feed to a converted AD/DA monitor feed. It is measurable.. IF your measuring equipment exceeds the spec of the converter. Some of it is artistic interpretation but some is visible, look at camera sensors and check out the Sony a7sii which can make night day with like no noise.. much better then our eye in the dark.
|
|
|
Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 27, 2017 16:06:16 GMT -6
Thanks for all the feedback. I very much appreciate the learning. I think the symphony mk2 is an absolute amazing converter and I appreciate everyone taking the time to listen to my feedback as well.
|
|
|
Post by sozocaps on Jan 27, 2017 16:11:51 GMT -6
I get it converters are the most obsessed over and with the current offerings about the absolute least of importance LOL...
|
|
|
Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 27, 2017 16:13:22 GMT -6
Chase, no worries man, if you put the Symphony in your room and compared it to something like an Apollo 16 or a Clarett, you'd know in an instant the Symphony sounds better. There may be some technical reasons, but these things are a sum of their parts and design, not just a converter in isolation. Nope symphony will sound different than Apollo, it is up to the end mixer/ artist to figure out what sounds better for that recording. I understand what you meant however this thinkin can get you into trouble! .. Ex: a UA reissue 1176 is 3 times better than a wa76 due to cost / parts right? Not really most would rather have 4 warm audio! That million dollar studio thread that just got posted even uses warm audio wa76's ( prob in B room but hey look at the list ) If I was super rich I would purchase about 5 top of the line converters and see for myself. I bet the $ would be better spent on the room, monitoring, mics, and HW... converters aren't this magic thing every makes them to be, if they were everyone here would have 10 flavors of converters like HW comps or different tape machines. Thanks for weighing in MJB
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 27, 2017 16:14:27 GMT -6
I think many of us would prefer to have one box that handles the conversion, and then just forget about it for a few years. Time is better spent getting on with music production. The Symphony to me is at a high enough level I could forget about the sound. The Apollo makes me work hard to get it sounding OK. It's a fine machine, UAD is solid, but it is what it is.
I once had a Burl converter here on loan for a week, and I could have happily used that too, and not be worried about something else. I'm really not into the electrical engineering aspect of all this, although I can appreciate the guys who are. I just listen.
|
|
|
Post by ragan on Jan 27, 2017 16:36:32 GMT -6
Oh gotcha. I didn't notice that was posted here. Yeah, the MKII really sounds incredible there. Listen to the nuance/detail of the snare drum vs the Avid. It goes sort of 'further back' into the center. That and all the other things mentioned. Big, natural soundstage. How do you know it was the converter making the snare go further back and into the center? What if you want a upfront snare drum sound and that's the way you record it, The Apogee is going to push it further back and center it "? Well the converter is the only difference in that test. And I guess I should have clarified it more. I can hear more nuance in the snare and, to my ear, that sort of allows the sound to extend further back. Not that the whole thing is just sort of 'placed' further back. It just sounds like a more natural, complex representation of the snare which allows it to occupy a more complex space, front to back, sounding more 'real'. Hope that makes sense.
|
|
|
Post by ragan on Jan 27, 2017 16:40:50 GMT -6
And yeah, it bares repeating the usual (and true!) mantra that most modern converters are very good and if you've got anything decent, the conversion stage is extremely unlikely to be your weakest link. But it's not true that they simply don't matter. They do. Along with everything else.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jan 27, 2017 17:05:11 GMT -6
Well but it's not just the converter,it's the whole signal path within different boxes that differs. Also I am comparing the dac and the headphone outs on the symphony mkii are miles ahead of the apollo and to me, sound better than my old dbox which was impressive! We all, can only live our experiences in life:there's no cheating there
|
|
|
Post by NoFilterChuck on Jan 27, 2017 18:59:40 GMT -6
All of you guys that are like "uh, i don't believe you, you need to explain better", you should all go to sweetwater.com, sign up for the Sweetwater CC, buy one with some dsub cables, listen to it for a week, and then send it back when you finally hear what kcat and myself hear when we listen thru our symphonies.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jan 27, 2017 19:19:34 GMT -6
Ya its kind of amusing to have someone who isn't sitting in front of the symphony xplaing what you are not hearing Sorry couldn't resist bout 2/3rds way through a nice bottle of cote du rhone, symphony is paid for, life is good !
|
|
|
Post by ragan on Jan 27, 2017 19:56:43 GMT -6
Ya its kind of amusing to have someone who isn't sitting in front of the symphony xplaing what you are not hearing Sorry couldn't resist bout 2/3rds way through a nice bottle of cote du rhone, symphony is paid for, life is good ! It's good to be a Kcat.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jan 27, 2017 20:20:41 GMT -6
meow ! or as kcatthedog is actually my dog's name: bow wow !
|
|
|
Post by mikec on Jan 27, 2017 20:34:02 GMT -6
Hey Kcat, if that cote du rhone is a red, count me in. Regarding the discussion on the Apollo in comparison to the Symphony MkII, I don't know the technical reasons but the sound is just more pleasing and easier to mix when I am working on my Symphony MKII. That's not a diss to the Apollo since I also have an Apollo 8P BF that I use sometimes to track vocals or guitars in different places to capture different room acoustics, but the Symphony MKII is noticeably better sounding in a controlled studio setting with good monitors. Nevertheless, anyone other than all of us who obsess over this, probably could never tell the difference in the final mix, but having things like this that you are passionate about are one of the things that makes life more interesting.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jan 27, 2017 21:04:24 GMT -6
Ha its not rocket science I think any one of us if we were directly comparing the Apollo bf8 and symphony mkii would agree there are sonic differences as to preference I think the nod would go for the symphony mkii!
|
|
|
Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 27, 2017 21:43:49 GMT -6
All of you guys that are like "uh, i don't believe you, you need to explain better", you should all go to sweetwater.com, sign up for the Sweetwater CC, buy one with some dsub cables, listen to it for a week, and then send it back when you finally hear what kcat and myself hear when we listen thru our symphonies. That would be me so address me not anyone else please sir 😀.. I don't feel the need to go into debt buy purchasing a symphony on a credit card in order to make great records or mixes. See if I want a Symphony mk2 I will go buy one and peel off 25-55 blue hundreds depending on how nuts I want the setup 🤓💵💰Seems most here agree converters are minimal improvements for the thousands of dollars one needs to spend... kcatthedog I'm not telling you what you are hearing... in a blind abx I wonder how many times you would pick the symphony in playback vs whatever other converter in the test... ( throw the clarett in there or w/e ) mikec I'm not comparing the symphony mk1 or mk2 to the Apollo Kcat is...😀 I don't have to compare the SF Apollo around these parts the RGO consensus its not pro and borderline compromised (aka a piece of trash 😂 ) Not sure if anyone read my first post congratulating Kcat and saying how happy I was for him... Anyway kcatthedog you ain't got no more reasons to not make great music my man 🤠
|
|
|
Post by stratboy on Jan 27, 2017 22:21:15 GMT -6
My first interface was a Digital mBox Pro. Then I got an RME FireFace 400. I A/B'd them. The RME was a step up. You could hear it. Then I got a Ross Martin. Same thing. Run the same source thru the monitor switcher, level match and hear the difference. Then I got a Svartbox. Again, noticeable upgrade in quality of sound. Now I have a Motu 16a and the Svartbox, a class A amp and some killer monitors. If a metaphorical band was playing in front of me, the mBox was like covering them with heavy canvas. The Svartbox is like fine nylons. Maybe a Symphony puts even less of a barrier between the listener and what was played by the band during the recording session. My experience is that converters sound different and quality matters.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 27, 2017 22:29:27 GMT -6
We've all enjoyed our discussions of so many nuanced things, all in pursuit of a quality in our recording's that's highly elusive. In another thread, I posted a link to a Vintage King mic shootout with over 20 mics. It was unbearably long, but worth the effort. First, of course you must try to find your best match to your own voice if you're the singer, but a studio might need something less specialized, like a U87. The takeaway was clear though, despite the many fantastic mics, including many 3-6k mics, the $9,000 Telefunken U47 just trounced the competition. It was painfully obvious, it was everything many of us have sought out. My next favorite was the 5-6k Bock Audio 251, and my third choice was the Manley Reference Cardioid at around 2.5k.
My point is that the sound I want is achievable. If I had that Telefunken, a Symphony, the preamps, compressors and EQ's I want, it would sound much closer to my ideal. We get into difficulties when trying to get there by compromising. Of course opinions and taste vary, but there is also consensus. Anyone watching that video and not noticing the Telefunken is perfection itself, is probably hearing impaired ;-)
The quality of a converter might not be issue number 1, but from what I can tell of the difference between the Symphony and the Apollo, one is an excellent tool, and one is glorious, and I sure could use me some glorious for a change :-)
Sometimes the cliche` is true, and you get what you pay for. Unfortunately, I don't get paid what I'm worth anymore, so I can't just buy it right the first time these days.
I'm actually quite grateful to UAD and their Apollo for getting me going again. Their support has been excellent, and the Apollo worked flawlessly for 5 years.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 27, 2017 22:36:09 GMT -6
Here ya go. Fair warning, you'll need a cup of coffee to get through it all.
|
|
|
Post by NoFilterChuck on Jan 27, 2017 23:03:52 GMT -6
@martin, the symphony would definitely make the car traffic and laundry machines sound great when they bleed onto your vocal takes
|
|
|
Post by reddirt on Jan 28, 2017 0:42:45 GMT -6
Here we are talking about the pinnacle of recording quality and I'm surmising that most of us aren't actually working in the very high end environments e.g. Blackbird etc. It's amazing that this quality is available to us ; we live in sometimes vexed but also fantastic times.
I have both Prism Titan and Metric Halo ULN-2 and dare not listen to Symphony! Went back to The MH the other day after using the Prism for a year and felt no reduction in quality just a slightly different flavour - in the absence of hearing Symphony am happy with either..
FWIW , my take out and what I want to add here is that while conversion is obviously a serious link in the chain, our rooms are our weakest link generally speaking; I can make a bigger difference recording a tambourine or sax in my house hallway on a Presonus FS rather than fighting the small dimensioned crap I get from trying to record those insts in my damped control room on the Prism / MH etc.
Not trying to diminish anyone's search for their holy grail but gently reminding us of the IMO , more major importance of the acoustic ; that's where I'm at.
Cheers, Ross
|
|