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Post by johneppstein on Jan 23, 2017 15:16:14 GMT -6
If you think about in a general sense, Steven may be right about the future of recording. He's just there first with a comprehensive system. Part of being first in anything is that it's rough, and bigger and better systems inevitably follow. Those of us who prefer hardware when we can use it can still see how appealing it could be to be able to change the mic on tracks if you want, even if it's to improve only one small part. To be able to change from a U47 to a 67 or a 251 might be cool too. Me, I'll stick with the real thing, but I do find it interesting and can see the potential of Slate's system or others like it soon to come. Well, I hope to (insert deity of your choice) that he isn't, but it certainly looks like a large portion of the gear market is heading that way. What really bothers me about the sim and emu guys - all of them - is that if there's something in the real world behavior of the original device that's difficult or impossible to model accurately (off-axis mic response is a perfect example) they just declare it unimportant and ignore it. Now, there are some cases where this could conceivably yeild a "better" result, such as a mic with good on-axis sound that goes all to hell off axis*, but it's still not the same as the original and that bothers me. More egregious than that are companies that just throw in "standard" distortion algos to add "analog dirt" to their "models" of stuff (NOT talking about Steven on this last.) The problem is that the realities of marketing and development costs vs profit tend to reinforce that. I really hope that some studios survive that still do things "the old way". Maybe there will be a split where the traditional ways will be valued (in the sense of commercial value) again and the hobbyists can go their own way and generate lots of money for the digital companies. I don't know. There would have to be a swing in people's listening tastes, and that might require a change in the structure of the businesses that control what is sold to the public via the mass media. * - it is my opinion that the insulation pimps sell a lot of unneccessary product to people who are trying to kill a perfectly good "room sound" because the off-axis response of their cheap mics makes it sound like crap - and then they pile on the reverb to try to recreate some faux air and life that they never should have killed in the first place.
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Post by stevenslate on Jan 23, 2017 15:45:32 GMT -6
Hi John, thanks for the post and feedback.
You bring up an important topic with "off axis sound". Off axis microphone response has been one of the most misconceived aspects of our VMS system... so much that we'll be doing a dedicated video demonstrating and explaining it better.
To sum it up, the off axis tone of a cardioid microphone has a more severely limited frequency response mainly in the lows and highs. Therefore, there is far less information, and the most crucial identifying factors of the information that the human auditory system can most easily perceive are specifically reduced. Therefore, it is easier to recreate the tone of off axis response because there is simply less information for our ears to discern differences. Now, the exception comes when you have a microphone with a unique polar pattern that deviates based on frequency, but in this case the difference can only be heard when there are multiple sources coming into both sides of the microphone.
But ultimately, we were able to achieve nearly indistinguishable off axis response between our models and the real mics well before we could do the same with the much fuller bandwidth on axis response. You can hear a lot of off axis response during the drum portion of our NRG comparison video (the video link goes right to the drum section):
Now, onto the more philosophical aspect of this system... my thoughts are this: The goal in our craft is to create an inspiring piece of music that invokes an emotional response from its listeners. Whether you get there on a piece of 2inch tape using racks of hardware and vintage mics, or you get there with all Virtual Instruments on a laptop does not matter to me and certainly doesn't matter to the average listener. So all I intend to do is level the playing field and remove the "class system" in audio tools, so that more people can have access to the crayons in the box that were once out of their reach. If the end result makes people happy, then the road to get there matters little to me.
Cheers, Steven
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 23, 2017 16:00:05 GMT -6
One of my goals is indeed to create inspiring music that listeners respond to emotionally.
One of the difficulties in achieving that has in fact been recording at home with all the inherent limitations I have. When I did the high end mic shootout with Jeremy Gillespie at The Barbershop Studios, being in that beautiful space, it was painfully obvious how much was missing from my recordings. All the virtual gear in the world isn't going to get me to sound like it sounds in a world class room, just closer than I am now. UAD's Ocean Way Studios does help a little in that way.
Butit's also true that a real deal studio isn't exactly necessary to achieve the goal of inspiring emotion. Steven's response mentioned making people happy, and that's laudable, but my goal is to make myself happy with the recording. I then hope that people find it moving. I want to make "records" if I can, not demos, and in four years, I feel I've made only two at home, the rest are good sounding demos.
My prayer for the day.. Lord, help me get back into a great studio with a great engineer on a good day.
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Post by rowmat on Jan 23, 2017 16:22:45 GMT -6
The real downside of all this IMO is not the virtual technology revolution persay, but the disappearance of great facilities (read great tracking rooms) and the early 'retirement' of many industry greats who can no longer make a decent living and have either retired or moved their operation to their homes often ITB.
The high cost of past studio facilities no doubt acted as quality filter to a certain extent.
It's not surprising that our regular mastering engineer is increasingly being asked to salvage mixes that have been recorded in poor acoustic environments with poor mic techniques and then had a bunch of plugins (virtual room verbs etc) piled on top. Comb filtering and multiple mic phase issues are the most common problems he is seeing.
No doubt the virtual recording studio will put even more pressure on traditional studios as more jump aboard the next virtual technology train.
At the end of the day it's the end result that matters.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 23, 2017 17:05:49 GMT -6
My job is certainly different than it used to be. When I got my first pub deal, $800 per song wasn't uncommon...now I'm building my tracks mostly at home. I still want to try one of the VMS'...it could be a great tool for me in addition to a few other mics.
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Post by stevenslate on Jan 23, 2017 18:33:12 GMT -6
I have several friends who own professional commercial facilities, and I do have opinions on this matter as well.
Indeed, the commercial studio business is struggling badly and has been for some time. Many top facilities as we know have not made it. But from witnessing the facilities that HAVE made it, I can see a few trends:
1. They didn't dismiss evolving technology, they embraced it which reduced overhead 2. They focused on promoting the pro studio experience, ie: top quality rooms and service 3. They focus on having no downtime to ensure clients (and revenue) year round
These days, having to replace some motorized faders, repair some gear, and fix a few broken microphones can be the downfall of a commercial facility. So my point is, a stack of VRS boxes and a bunch of VMS mics along with an HDX rig or two could actually help, not hinder a pro establishment, provided that they have great rooms and great service.
Cheers, Steven
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Post by joseph on Jan 23, 2017 19:44:03 GMT -6
On the other hand, laptop, sound devices and 500 series portability means that one can travel to any acoustic location fairly easily, and no one has the budget for months long studio lock out a la Rumours anymore.
I'd rather have 200 hrs in a so so room with complete freedom, good players and relaxed vibe than 1 day in a top facility, everyone anxious.
We tend to forget that many bands in 90s, even well rehearsed, were not so happy with the studio experience, when you had suits knocking on the door and abridging your creative freedom, drama aside.
That's not even getting into today's trade off of car commercials and other hellish bullshit as a way to pay for studio space.
Hipsters in basements, slum warehouses in violation of fire code and tools like Slate are the way of the future, no doubt about it.
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Post by gouge on Jan 23, 2017 20:51:14 GMT -6
this is where I differ stevenslate and why I don't get into some of the stuff you say or sell. to quote you. "If the end result makes people happy, then the road to get there matters little to me"
whilst I agree the end result is what we are striving for it is obvious to me that the road getting there matters greatly. that's art for you. call it gestalt. the end result is informed by the means getting there. this is why artists choose particular studios or certain bits of gear when creating art. thin pen, fat pen etc.
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Post by stevenslate on Jan 23, 2017 21:24:35 GMT -6
Hi Gouge, perhaps I should clarify my statement because we might actually be in agreement.
Yes, the way to get there matters but only to the person on the road. Meaning... if a guy uses a laptop to make great art, then someone who uses racks of gear and tape really doesn't have the right to tell him he's "wrong", and vice versa.
Cheers, Steven
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 23, 2017 22:38:59 GMT -6
I'm more interested in how this all sounds than the philosophical discussion. A little philosophy's fine, but I'd like to know more about the mics. Steven, I mentioned earlier that I thought having Slate VMS events at studios would be a great way for people to see and hear this for themselves. UAD recently had a great event at a studio in Brooklyn, hosted by Alto Music, and it was a blast.
Each artist chooses how best to get where they want within their means. Sometimes the lack of means helps the art forward, sometimes hinders. Slate digital is offering a comprehensive system that will suit many people well, and for those it doesn't, no harm done, so why worry about it.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 24, 2017 0:45:32 GMT -6
Hi John, thanks for the post and feedback. You bring up an important topic with "off axis sound". Off axis microphone response has been one of the most misconceived aspects of our VMS system... so much that we'll be doing a dedicated video demonstrating and explaining it better. ......... Cheers, Steven Hi Steven, I'm going to have to think carefully before answering this post (which I haven't quoted fully this time due to space considerations, as I almost certainly will when I'm thought out my answer. Maybe tomorrow morning when I'm fresh.... As for now I'm going to go on to posits that are a little easier..... -John-
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 24, 2017 1:08:16 GMT -6
One of my goals is indeed to create inspiring music that listeners respond to emotionally. One of the difficulties in achieving that has in fact been recording at home with all the inherent limitations I have. When I did the high end mic shootout with Jeremy Gillespie at The Barbershop Studios, being in that beautiful space, it was painfully obvious how much was missing from my recordings. All the virtual gear in the world isn't going to get me to sound like it sounds in a world class room, just closer than I am now. UAD's Ocean Way Studios does help a little in that way. Butit's also true that a real deal studio isn't exactly necessary to achieve the goal of inspiring emotion. Steven's response mentioned making people happy, and that's laudable, but my goal is to make myself happy with the recording. I then hope that people find it moving. I want to make "records" if I can, not demos, and in four years, I feel I've made only two at home, the rest are good sounding demos. My prayer for the day.. Lord, help me get back into a great studio with a great engineer on a good day. For me, tracking directly to digital does something I don't like, particularly on my voice*. I've talked about this in the "Tape Machine" thread - something seems to get lost in the first digital conversion. Until this problem gets solved - and it's a problem with the medium, not any particular software - I'm not likely to want to use digital recording for my own projects unless something happens to prevent me from tracking to analog. And yes, what I'm talking about has a direct bearing on emotional communication in the voice. * - I don't have a "conventionally" great voice and I tend to be very critical of certain aspects of it.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 24, 2017 1:50:19 GMT -6
I have several friends who own professional commercial facilities, and I do have opinions on this matter as well. Indeed, the commercial studio business is struggling badly and has been for some time. Many top facilities as we know have not made it. But from witnessing the facilities that HAVE made it, I can see a few trends: 1. They didn't dismiss evolving technology, they embraced it which reduced overhead 2. They focused on promoting the pro studio experience, ie: top quality rooms and service 3. They focus on having no downtime to ensure clients (and revenue) year round These days, having to replace some motorized faders, repair some gear, and fix a few broken microphones can be the downfall of a commercial facility. So my point is, a stack of VRS boxes and a bunch of VMS mics along with an HDX rig or two could actually help, not hinder a pro establishment, provided that they have great rooms and great service. Cheers, Steven Steven, it seems that this has very much to do with another negative trend in the industry that doesn't seem to get discussed much. That thing is the vanishing studio tech. When I was starting out in audio just about every studio had a competent tech department, even the small ones - if something went down (other than a high end mic) the in-house techs would generally have it up and running by the time the band got back from their dinner break. These days you're lucky to find one or two competent studio techs in any major US metropolitan area except Nashville, New York, and LA. And the trend is getting worse. It has a lot to do with the fact that most electronics being sold today is more or less unrepairable, at least in any way that makes sense economically, and the local electronics repairman has pretty much gone the way of the dinosaur with the exception of guitar amp techs - and even those are getting scarce. Something like replacing a motorized fader should be a no-brainer for a commercial facility. When I pop a chip on one of my Studer's audio cards I can generally swap in a spare - if no it's maybe half an hour to fix the card because all the chips are socketed - and I'm not a real Studer tech. At $0.75/chip it's not even cost effective to trace out which one went bad - I just replace all 4 of the chips. But that's because I used to be a service tech, most people who call themselves "studio engineers" would be standing there with their thumb up their ass going "da-HOOT!" (No, not most of the guys here, but this is a special place. At GS 95% of the people couldn't tell one end of a 5534 from the other.) Some rich guy wants to open a recording studio, has no real studio training, knows no electronics, would burn his hand picking up the wrong end of a soldering iron. Probably has more mic pres than microphones. If there were any agreed on standards for recording schools, basic audio electronics and troubleshooting should be a required subject, with more advanced progtrams available. These days I hear about "Certified Protools Instructors" who don't even know that pin 1 on an XLR is ground. The level of general ignorance is mind boggling.... But I fear you're right about the future. It makes me sad. <end rant>
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 24, 2017 2:17:27 GMT -6
Hi Gouge, perhaps I should clarify my statement because we might actually be in agreement. Yes, the way to get there matters but only to the person on the road. Meaning... if a guy uses a laptop to make great art, then someone who uses racks of gear and tape really doesn't have the right to tell him he's "wrong", and vice versa. Cheers, Steven Well, yes... but SOMEONE does. That "someone" is the music purchasing audience - and that audience has been shrinking drastically over the last decade, dacade and a half. Now there are a number of factors that affect that, buit I think that there's one thing that's particularly intertesting and can be viewed as tied to what you speak of here. That thing is this - 2015 was the first year in history that "legacy music" outsold new releases according to Billboard magazine, and by a significant amount. Think about that for a minute - it isn't the geezers buying those records, nearly all of them already have all that stuff they want. What this indicates is that those younger people who actually think enough of music to still buy it are voting with their wallets - for older releases. Why would this be? It's certainly not a matter of publicity - the "new music" is being rammed down everyone's throats without mercy. My guess is that it's a matter of production values, songwriting, and audio quality. Comments?
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Post by gouge on Jan 24, 2017 4:16:38 GMT -6
Hi Gouge, perhaps I should clarify my statement because we might actually be in agreement. Yes, the way to get there matters but only to the person on the road. Meaning... if a guy uses a laptop to make great art, then someone who uses racks of gear and tape really doesn't have the right to tell him he's "wrong", and vice versa. Cheers, Steven yeah, that's not what I meant.
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Post by gouge on Jan 24, 2017 4:22:23 GMT -6
I'm more interested in how this all sounds than the philosophical discussion. A little philosophy's fine, but I'd like to know more about the mics. Steven, I mentioned earlier that I thought having Slate VMS events at studios would be a great way for people to see and hear this for themselves. UAD recently had a great event at a studio in Brooklyn, hosted by Alto Music, and it was a blast. Each artist chooses how best to get where they want within their means. Sometimes the lack of means helps the art forward, sometimes hinders. Slate digital is offering a comprehensive system that will suit many people well, and for those it doesn't, no harm done, so why worry about it. the point is that when you design something what is not obvious to most is what philosophy was used during the design process. ultimately it's the philosophy behind the design that creates the outcome. I put it to you that with all of the gear you own it's the philosophy behind the gear that you are actually hearing. whether it's analogue or digital doesn't matter.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2017 5:41:40 GMT -6
Hipsters in basements ............... ..... mixing up the medicine .....
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 24, 2017 7:26:23 GMT -6
Think about that for a minute - it isn't the geezers buying those records, nearly all of them already have all that stuff they want. What this indicates is that those younger people who actually think enough of music to still buy it are voting with their wallets - for older releases. I think it is actually the geezers. They are buying remastered versions, cd's that they never previously owned, box sets, MP3 versions of the stuff the already own because they don't know how to rip cd's, etc. Young people are on Spotify (if we're lucky {better chance of a paycheck from Spotify, however meager that is}) or YouTube.
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Post by kilroyrock on Jan 24, 2017 7:37:47 GMT -6
The sheer small footprint of the M2 and the great sound of that rock snare is impressive.
For the cost of a beta 57 it would be a welcome addition. Maybe a 5 pack would be good with my clarett pre8x it is supposed to be quite flat in and of itself..
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Post by swurveman on Jan 24, 2017 8:13:26 GMT -6
Yes, the way to get there matters but only to the person on the road. Meaning... if a guy uses a laptop to make great art, then someone who uses racks of gear and tape really doesn't have the right to tell him he's "wrong", and vice versa. Cheers, Steven I really dislike how moral relativism- " I have no right to tell anybody whether their right/wrong about quality of gear" - has creeped into marketing, though I understand why. This relativism has creeped into our culture at large. Now, powerful people are emboldened to say, "don't believe what you see, hear and feel, I/we have an 'alternate view' which is just as relevant and you have no right to tell me I'm wrong ". Imo, it's a suckers game for all but the powerful, who can capitalize from it.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 24, 2017 9:51:32 GMT -6
The proliferation of mediocre music is of course, mainly from everyone being able to create and produce music at home cheaply. Even Garage Band can work. The democratization of recording had definitely removed filters, (like record companies and A&R people) , so more crap gets through, but it also does enable some to shine who otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity.
So, we end up back where we started with Duke Ellington's statement about there being only two kinds of music, good or bad. Unfortunately, there's so much more of it now, we see much more bad than ever. That's not any one company's fault. There are plenty of boutique designers making wonderful emulations of classic gear, and re-interpreting them to modernize. So there's little in the way of someone with a taste for analogue to get something good going. It is what it is, so I think we's do well too just concentrate on how the gear works and sounds, than bemoan it's existence. If it works for me, I'll use if, if not, so what, I'll find something that does.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 24, 2017 10:51:22 GMT -6
Steven should get t's made: I'm SC ! (slate curious) !
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 24, 2017 10:59:42 GMT -6
When Steven says he doesn't care, I understand that he cares deeply about what worked for that artist/engineer/producer, but doesn't care whether it is ITB or OTB: use the tools that work for you ? He'll keep making tools that blow his socks off and keep telling us all about them, again and again and again cus , you know he's SS, as an educator/communicator, he believes even more strongly in re-inforcement as a Canadian, I love his " the medium is the message mantra, eh !
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Post by drbill on Jan 24, 2017 11:21:07 GMT -6
Yes, the way to get there matters but only to the person on the road. Meaning... if a guy uses a laptop to make great art, then someone who uses racks of gear and tape really doesn't have the right to tell him he's "wrong", and vice versa. Cheers, Steven I really dislike how moral relativism- " I have no right to tell anybody whether their right/wrong about quality of gear" - has creeped into marketing, though I understand why. This relativism has creeped into our culture at large. Now, powerful people are emboldened to say, "don't believe what you see, hear and feel, I/we have an 'alternate view' which is just as relevant and you have no right to tell me I'm wrong ". Imo, it's a suckers game for all but the powerful, who can capitalize from it. This ^^^^^ is a very astute observation by swurveman!!
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Post by swurveman on Jan 24, 2017 11:28:07 GMT -6
When Steven says he doesn't care, I understand that he cares deeply about what worked for that artist/engineer/producer, but doesn't care whether it is ITB or OTB: use the tools that work for you ? He'll keep making tools that blow his socks off and keep telling us all about them, again and again and again cus , you know he's SS, as an educator/communicator, he believes even more strongly in re-inforcement as a Canadian, I love his " the medium is the message mantra, eh ! Yeah, but if I buy UAD's Sphere plugin, he has no right to tell me his product is better than UAD's product and that I was wrong to buy it. There is no right or wrong when buying plug ins. I'm just using a different medium than Slate in this "it's all good" relativism.
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