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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 16, 2017 9:38:35 GMT -6
Well, I won't disagree that many things that used to work aren't working now, but then there are always exceptions. Someone finds a way, someone catches a break, someone makes money. So many of us hold on to the dream, even in the face of insurmountable odds, and the lack of a clear path or success paradigm. Foolish, maybe. I'm certainly guilty of holding out and hoping for a break. But then, alternatives must be found, or we'd just not bother anymore, and break our spirits.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 16, 2017 9:51:21 GMT -6
$10 an hour..... That's what it's come to now. I've never and I mean even when I was an intern made less than $25 an hour and that was in someone else's studio. Shit I'm jealous, I interned at CRC in Chicago & a hipster talent booking agency- commuted from the suburbs for over an hour paying out of pocket for transportation & lunch; FOR ZERO. Ended up getting canned cause I was late during a snow storm ONCE. I'm telling you the times have changed as Bill & others have mentioned there's little to no growth....but nepotism is still alive & well. But everyone's totally right 10 bucks an hour is hardly worth it, babysitters make more. Its embarrassing. Well when I showed up I had already studied the craft to no end..... I was willing to do all the piss on stuff but the guy I worked for was a good guy and he believed in taking care of people. Most interns were getting cables wrapped up and learning about microphones, I was soldering wall jacks and crimping cat5 cables on my first day. I always had something extra I could offer these guys and that was that I was good at putting things together and damn good with a soldering iron.
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Post by rocinante on Jan 16, 2017 9:52:27 GMT -6
Yeah don't knock other engineers man or intefere, thst shit will always come back to haunt you. Always. Represent yourself. I get schmuck 'producers' in here often enough with bands that think they are the next Rick Rubin, who are just terrible but I keep my mouth shut and perform my magic for them making it appear like they did it. Yep. The band looks to them for guidance and ideas and the guy is just full of shit and wants things 'fatter'. A month ago one 'producer' kept referring to the 1176 as the 'Fairchild' in a real douche voice. 'Hmm lets use the Fairchild' 'You mean the 1176 over there right?' 'Yes, the 1176 Fairchild' 'Ok' Dudes been here 3 times and pays in cash. In the end he rides the faders even. Its kind of like letting Jimmy steer the wheel of the ship while its on autopilot and your hands are on the real steering wheel just in case he makes too many dumb turns. It's an illusion. Just like when I started out pretending I knew it all, when in reality I was just doing the: 'fake it till you make it'. Some believed my bs. Some saw through it but played along. Just like I do for Mr. Fairchild I go to other studios for their rooms every so often. My 12 x 26 x 8 foot space sonetimes needs more room and the drums in several studios I go to are just fantastic and already set up. Thank the great god of outboard we all lie for one another. Or we'd be saying 'paper or plastic' instead of 'lets use the Fairchild 1176'
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Post by M57 on Jan 16, 2017 10:39:40 GMT -6
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there seems to be two distinct but curiously related conversations going on here.. One having to do with musicians and bands, and one about A/E. And it strikes me as no coincidence that I find myself, a singer/songwriter, and others like me participating in what, had it existed 30 years ago, would have been a community of strictly A/E people.
Today's reality is that anyone can plunk down a couple grand for a handful of mics and an interface - and with half-decent skills be able to put out a reasonably good sounding product, which is the same as taking money directly out of the pockets of project studio owners. Yes, you all can moan and groan about how it doesn't compare to what a pro can do (with or without X gear), but guess what? The average musician doesn't care, and that's all that matters. Remember, most of it get's posted to the web and sold, downloaded or given away, so there are no standards. It doesn't matter if it's recorded in a bedroom with a cheap condenser, no processing and posted warts and all - or mangled and overcooked in a DAW and squashed into a blintz - it's cheap and easy to get it out there with no money changing hands. I do feel bad for those who are try to eke out a living in that environment. It takes business acumen, hard work and perseverance, and a good chunk of what you have to do has very little to do with actually plying your trade.
So strangely enough, I find it ironic when the discussion is about frustration ..and being reduced to chasing the increasingly untouchable dream, when in so many ways I'm living it. Nope, I'm not making a penny - But I am making music exactly the way I want. I have total artistic control over my music and a very small, but appreciative on-line audience. The recording quality of what I create gets significantly better with every song I write, and though I know it is not in a league with professional product, I'm absolutely thrilled with the level of recording quality I'm able to achieve. Most of my friends and colleagues don't even know I write music. Yeah, I do miss performing, but not in bars and late at night on weekends and breaking down at 1 in the morning. I have no schedule to stress about, no deadlines, and I don't worry one single bit about drumming up business and brown-nosing. Instead I record whenever I want and cultivate on-line relationships with like-minded musicians and song-writers (and friendly A/E types here on RG), and their advice and input only makes my music better - not to mention that I've had the opportunity to play on the tracks of others ..and had them play on mine in return. I wouldn't be surprised if I spend about as much energy on my very satisfying day job as a teacher as music professionals do shoveling business crap. Life is VERY good.
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Post by rowmat on Jan 16, 2017 11:46:10 GMT -6
"... I get schmuck 'producers' in here often enough with bands that think they are the next Rick Rubin, who are just terrible but I keep my mouth shut and perform my magic for them making it appear like they did it..." "...It's an illusion..."
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 16, 2017 13:59:29 GMT -6
Had a few thoughts relevant to my own situation.
There seems to be a mindset that if you're not doing this full-time, then you're somehow not as "legitimate" as those who do. For some reason (from these posts), when I read the term "hobbyists", it is with a negative connotation. And if you're doing music production less than full time, then you'd be a hobbyist. However, the theme of this conversation has been that the days of making a decent living recording music are (mostly) over. These two ideas clash in my head. It's like, you're not a legitimate engineer unless you opt to work full-time for clients who would rather not pay, and therefore you can't make a decent living.
Also, one of the bigger themes of this conversation has been the ability to adapt to look for other sources of revenue.
That's the route I opted to take. I heeded the advice of those who are struggling. I see the big studios closing left and right. I went to a 4 year liberal arts school and earned a degree in audio/video production. For a short time after graduating, I earned my living by working three jobs. I worked at a studio, I worked at an independent guitar shop repairing instruments, and I gigged. None paid well. I was barely making ends meet and struggled to pay bills, including student loan debt and the credit card bills I had racked up while interning.
But I was in my mid-twenties and only had myself to look after. I saw the studio was struggling to get clients in. We were pushed to go out and actively bring them in. I saw that we were headed down a path that we were only going to get paid if we brought in paying clients. I quickly realized this path, however fun it was, was not sustainable. (I also realized that just because you work at a studio, doesn't mean that you always enjoy the material you work on. There was plenty of music I worked on that I did not believe in or enjoy).
So I adapted. I had a skillset, and I found work at a University producing audio/video for higher ed. Is it music? No. Does it involve utilizing the same skill set? Yes (more or less). I would consider that adapting.
But what this means is that I no longer produce music "for a living". Does that relegate me to the realm of the lowly "hobbyists" bottom feeders? I don't know. I don't consider myself a "hobbyists". Does this mean I am less passionate about producing music than those who do this full-time? I feel I'm as passionate as anyone, maybe more so. I can't imagine my life without it. It pulls at me every waking second. Am I less legitimate than someone who pursues this full-time? Am I less creative? It feels like others may think so, apparently. I just feel that I took a different approach. I adapted.
Having this 'day gig' has allowed me to acquire high-end gear that I would have never had. I mean, I'm willing to bet I've got better gear than some of the other "studios" around here.
I also now have the luxury of choosing what I work on. The older I get, the more confident I am in myself. I am a creative person, and when I work on projects, i've always helped shape and refine music...producing. I feel, and I hope I get the reputation, that what I do is more than just pressing buttons and recording sounds. I hope others see the value in that. So far, everyone has been very receptive. I also have the added skill set of building recording gear and repairing instruments, which comes in handy during sessions.
I also don't have to compete. That's a huge plus for me because that sounds miserable. Just the thought of it makes me feel gross. I'm not one of the cool kids. I don't wear skull caps, thick rimmed glasses, tight roll my pants, or have an ironic mustache. I don't wear my hair in a style that looks like I just rolled out of bed. In fact, I don't have as much hair as I used to these days. I'm kind of a nerd that's into cool things. I'm a grunge era kid who still wears much of the same clothes.
One of the effects of working a day gig is that its easy to stay super busy with projects. In fact, I've haven't had any "down" time in the last 4 years. Granted, my turnaround time is slower, but every record I make is made as if it were my own. I can afford to focus on quality rather than turning stuff around quickly to generate the most income.
There's something else which I haven't heard many discussing in this conversation. That is family. It wasn't a factor to me in my early twenties, but I'm a little older now. I have a wife, a house and two kids (one of which was just born a couple of weeks ago), and all of the grown-up stuff that comes with that - health insurance, 401K's, mortgage payments, grocery bills, diapers, etc. Stuff I never had to consider before. I wouldn't have been able to afford this life strictly recording bands. And now that I have kids, my time with them is so valuable, and every project I work on is time spent away from them. My happiness is no longer my own to pursue.
So that's the path I've chosen. I do audio/video work during the day for higher ed. I get to be creative, so that's a major plus. I get to record audio and make really slick looking videos. Then, I come home and I make records and music videos during the nights/weekends.
So, are you competing with me? I don't know. I don't want to compete with anyone. If a band doesn't want to work with me, it's fine. I've got plenty to keep me busy. Am I less of a legitimate engineer than the guy down the road who may or may not be struggling to get bands in his full-time facility? I don't think so. I just took a different path.
I can't ever not be doing this. This is a fire that burns in every cell in my body, and is constantly pulling at me. I've always felt this. I am always reading, learning and doing. I chose a path that has allowed me to afford some really great pieces of gear, and has allowed me to comfortably provide for my family and their future. I also get to choose what projects I work on.
I do wish I could do this full-time, though. I think I'm good at what I do, especially the creative collaboration aspect. I have so much fun with it, and that really creates a relaxing atmosphere for everyone. I do get envious of the young guys I see that went to super expensive places like Full Sail, and drop massive amounts of money opening their own large, commercial space with tons of high end gear. That must be awesome.
But what I have is pretty awesome, too. Just in a different way.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 16, 2017 14:16:29 GMT -6
I'm not sure what the distinction is between musicians and bands and A/E people, which I interpreted to mean arts and entertainment. And yes, 30-40 years ago there was a community of bands and musicians who had interactions playing club dates together, playing as studio musicians and getting paid a living wage to do so. Simultaneously, they were going into recording studios to record cover and original music and the industry was thriving at a local, state and national level. 30-40 years ago the average musician did care, precisely because there were a tier of venues, where the better sounding bands and singer songwriters got paid more by the bigger venues if they sounded better. And they cared deeply in differentiating their sound precisely because they wanted to get to the upper tiers where the money was better. So, they went into studios with a well rehearsed band and- depending on which tier they were in financially- went into the tiered system of studios to sound better and struggle to get better, get more fans and make more money. There were also many more people with jobs involved in listening and evaluating music. From local disc jockey's to local promoter's to local studio owners, many people were invested, cared and competing at being better. It was a healthy capitalist model that was well dispersed across the nation. Yes, it's been a catastrophe on many levels. The technologists have won in what is essentially an economic revolution. Technology has opened up the floodgates of expression, but has simultaneously ruined the music and other art based businesses. And it's going to get worse, or better depending on how you look at it. The next wave of robotics is coming, which means that jobs like cabbies, truck drivers, food servers and anything that can be done robotically are going to be gone. This will lead to even less money circulating for arts. However, the technologists have this figured out. The non working populace will get a stipend and can sit in their homes, make music at their leisure and put it on the internet without having to do anything else. It's a paupers valhalla, or an orwellian nightmare depending on your point of view. You are precisely what the technologist's want, though I realize you came from a time when you didn't make a lot of money playing live compared to when the model was at its peak. I have no quarrel with your right to live your life the way you want, but philosophically I disagree with the entire model. I think the best things come out of struggle and competition in a moneyed reward system. 30-40 years ago, the music business was based on the struggle/competition/money reward system on a local, state and national level, because there was a large working class with money to spend on music, created full time by people making a living from it on many levels. That's all gone now for the most part. Some of us are raging at the dying light, but there's no escaping the direction we're heading, which is Tech's dream state.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 16, 2017 14:24:01 GMT -6
indiehouse, I don't think anyone here thinks that you're less legitimate. I certainly don't.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 16, 2017 14:49:07 GMT -6
indiehouse , I don't think anyone here thinks that you're less legitimate. I certainly don't. I don't either.
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Post by drbill on Jan 16, 2017 14:54:14 GMT -6
Had a few thoughts relevant to my own situation. There seems to be a mindset that if you're not doing this full-time, then you're somehow not as "legitimate" as those who do. For some reason (from these posts), when I read the term "hobbyists", it is with a negative connotation. And if you're doing music production less than full time, then you'd be a hobbyist. However, the theme of this conversation has been that the days of making a decent living recording music are (mostly) over. These two ideas clash in my head. It's like, you're not a legitimate engineer unless you opt to work full-time for clients who would rather not pay, and therefore you can't make a decent living. Also, one of the bigger themes of this conversation has been the ability to adapt to look for other sources of revenue. That's the route I opted to take. I heeded the advice of those who are struggling. I see the big studios closing left and right. I went to a 4 year liberal arts school and earned a degree in audio/video production. For a short time after graduating, I earned my living by working three jobs. I worked at a studio, I worked at an independent guitar shop repairing instruments, and I gigged. None paid well. I was barely making ends meet and struggled to pay bills, including student loan debt and the credit card bills I had racked up while interning. But I was in my mid-twenties and only had myself to look after. I saw the studio was struggling to get clients in. We were pushed to go out and actively bring them in. I saw that we were headed down a path that we were only going to get paid if we brought in paying clients. I quickly realized this path, however fun it was, was not sustainable. (I also realized that just because you work at a studio, doesn't mean that you always enjoy the material you work on. There was plenty of music I worked on that I did not believe in or enjoy). So I adapted. I had a skillset, and I found work at a University producing audio/video for higher ed. Is it music? No. Does it involve utilizing the same skill set? Yes (more or less). I would consider that adapting. But what this means is that I no longer produce music "for a living". Does that relegate me to the realm of the lowly "hobbyists" bottom feeders? I don't know. I don't consider myself a "hobbyists". Does this mean I am less passionate about producing music than those who do this full-time? I feel I'm as passionate as anyone, maybe more so. I can't imagine my life without it. It pulls at me every waking second. Am I less legitimate than someone who pursues this full-time? Am I less creative? It feels like others may think so, apparently. I just feel that I took a different approach. I adapted. Having this 'day gig' has allowed me to acquire high-end gear that I would have never had. I mean, I'm willing to bet I've got better gear than some of the other "studios" around here. I also now have the luxury of choosing what I work on. The older I get, the more confident I am in myself. I am a creative person, and when I work on projects, i've always helped shape and refine music...producing. I feel, and I hope I get the reputation, that what I do is more than just pressing buttons and recording sounds. I hope others see the value in that. So far, everyone has been very receptive. I also have the added skill set of building recording gear and repairing instruments, which comes in handy during sessions. I also don't have to compete. That's a huge plus for me because that sounds miserable. Just the thought of it makes me feel gross. I'm not one of the cool kids. I don't wear skull caps, thick rimmed glasses, tight roll my pants, or have an ironic mustache. I don't wear my hair in a style that looks like I just rolled out of bed. In fact, I don't have as much hair as I used to these days. I'm kind of a nerd that's into cool things. I'm a grunge era kid who still wears much of the same clothes. One of the effects of working a day gig is that its easy to stay super busy with projects. In fact, I've haven't had any "down" time in the last 4 years. Granted, my turnaround time is slower, but every record I make is made as if it were my own. I can afford to focus on quality rather than turning stuff around quickly to generate the most income. There's something else which I haven't heard many discussing in this conversation. That is family. It wasn't a factor to me in my early twenties, but I'm a little older now. I have a wife, a house and two kids (one of which was just born a couple of weeks ago), and all of the grown-up stuff that comes with that - health insurance, 401K's, mortgage payments, grocery bills, diapers, etc. Stuff I never had to consider before. I wouldn't have been able to afford this life strictly recording bands. And now that I have kids, my time with them is so valuable, and every project I work on is time spent away from them. My happiness is no longer my own to pursue. So that's the path I've chosen. I do audio/video work during the day for higher ed. I get to be creative, so that's a major plus. I get to record audio and make really slick looking videos. Then, I come home and I make records and music videos during the nights/weekends. So, are you competing with me? I don't know. I don't want to compete with anyone. If a band doesn't want to work with me, it's fine. I've got plenty to keep me busy. Am I less of a legitimate engineer than the guy down the road who may or may not be struggling to get bands in his full-time facility? I don't think so. I just took a different path. I can't ever not be doing this. This is a fire that burns in every cell in my body, and is constantly pulling at me. I've always felt this. I am always reading, learning and doing. I chose a path that has allowed me to afford some really great pieces of gear, and has allowed me to comfortably provide for my family and their future. I also get to choose what projects I work on. I do wish I could do this full-time, though. I think I'm good at what I do, especially the creative collaboration aspect. I have so much fun with it, and that really creates a relaxing atmosphere for everyone. I do get envious of the young guys I see that went to super expensive places like Full Sail, and drop massive amounts of money opening their own large, commercial space with tons of high end gear. That must be awesome. But what I have is pretty awesome, too. Just in a different way. Great post!!! You thought outside the box, and now make a living doing something that you enjoy (I presume) doing. I'm not seeing the "hobbyist" vs. "pro" thing in these threads. Maybe cause I'm not LOOKING for it, but I'm not seeing it. It's the same us against them thing in a lot of creative and sports type situations. Take surfing for example. You've got the "soul" surfers who surf for the pure joy of it vs. the professional surfers. Same "conflict". Neither is better than the other, although being a "pro" gives you more time in the water, so you tend to push the envelope faster and perhaps further. Same with music. Those who "do it for a living" log in more hours than those who do it "as a hobby". Doesn't make either "better" than the other, although the "pro's" get to put in more hours, and (theoretically) get to push the envelope further and faster. Honestly, I can make a SOLID argument for either direction. If I was just starting out now, and if I could find ANY other type of occupation that interested me, there would be zero doubt that I'd choose the "hobbyist" direction. I don't view either as better than the other. Only different. Congrats on finding what seems like a killer balance for yourself!!! Well done.
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Post by drbill on Jan 16, 2017 14:57:58 GMT -6
Yes, it's been a catastrophe on many levels. The technologists have won in what is essentially an economic revolution. Technology has opened up the floodgates of expression, but has simultaneously ruined the music and other art based businesses. And it's going to get worse, or better depending on how you look at it. The next wave of robotics is coming, which means that jobs like cabbies, truck drivers, food servers and anything that can be done robotically are going to be gone. This will lead to even less money circulating for arts. However, the technologists have this figured out. The non working populace will get a stipend and can sit in their homes, make music at their leisure and put it on the internet without having to do anything else. It's a paupers valhalla, or an orwellian nightmare depending on your point of view. I think this is a dead on assessment, and agree completely. Hopefully there will be a shift in what seems to be an unstoppable trend.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 16, 2017 15:04:39 GMT -6
I think this is a dead on assessment, and agree completely. Hopefully there will be a shift in what seems to be an unstoppable trend. Hey, I was at a guy's studio yesterday and he had your Silver Bullet and raved about it. I smiled and thought, "I know that guy!".
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 16, 2017 15:22:02 GMT -6
Without the struggle, the art people make will be different. Is there a utopian future, where happy people make happy music for a happy world, maybe, but not likely. I would never assume to judge someone else's life choices. Who knows, maybe indie house will find his way to a new and even better paradigm for producing music.
This I do know, because of the desire to become known for my music, I've experienced amazing things that would never have happened from the comfort of a good day job. I suspect that without the life risk, the rewards won't be as rich or as fulfilling as they might have been. That said, being on the other side of indiehouse's kind of choice, I suffered greatly.
I think it depends on the individual, and there's no right or wrong. I also don't think an olympic level achievement happens by playing it safe either. I'm adjusting to the reality myself, and have made compromises, but I actually hope to compromise less and less as I get closer to my goal. I believe true success begins where your passion is. Indiehouse seems passionate enough about his work for something good to come of it from what I can tell, but my question is, will that be limited by supporting his work through his day job.
I've done the same kind of thing, but had no choice because of serious illness. Now that I'm well, I hope to move away from the work I have to do toward the work I want to do.
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Post by jayson on Jan 16, 2017 15:44:05 GMT -6
Interesting thread, this certainly bumps into questions we've all had to deal with at one time or another. Going back to the original post: How do you compete with the 10:00 an hour guy? You don't. He wants to be like YOU not the other way around. Anybody charging a rate like that already knows his actual capabilities and what they're worth- hence the low price tag...and the lousy recording. To me it sounds like he's a neophyte hobbyist who's only charging a token amount for the sole purpose of justifying burning the physical calories involved while he learns about it. It's not likely to take any food off of your table to be supportive. Conversely, I'd keep my distance from his clients- if they're OK with a crappy recording they probably understand they're not ready for a REAL studio yet anyway. Besides, it's not going to make your life any better with clients who aren't really sure about what they're doing and feel they're paying too much while figuring it out. BUT a little diplomacy can have surprising dividends over the long term when dealing with "minnows" like the guy who visited you. It can be worth being friendly because HE may bring his clients to YOU when he realizes the difference between what you CAN do versus what he CAN'T.
When you're discussing the difference between the $10.00 an hour guy and yourself I think it's two pretty different ends of the food chain; it certainly is from HIS perspective...and that can be useful for you.
I doubt he would've sought you out in the first place if he didn't already consider you an ACTUAL expert. Boost his confidence up a bit -yet diplomatically and honestly critique the flaws of his recording- and he could wind up being the guy who convinces the band it's worth coming to you instead of doing DIY. I'm sure he'd be just as thrilled to get his clients into a REAL studio - LIKE YOURS- as to produce the crap you heard from his basement...as long as he can somehow be a part of it.
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Post by wiz on Jan 16, 2017 15:57:14 GMT -6
Yeah don't knock other engineers man or intefere, thst shit will always come back to haunt you. Always. Represent yourself. I get schmuck 'producers' in here often enough with bands that think they are the next Rick Rubin, who are just terrible but I keep my mouth shut and perform my magic for them making it appear like they did it. Yep. The band looks to them for guidance and ideas and the guy is just full of shit and wants things 'fatter'. A month ago one 'producer' kept referring to the 1176 as the 'Fairchild' in a real douche voice. 'Hmm lets use the Fairchild' 'You mean the 1176 over there right?' 'Yes, the 1176 Fairchild' 'Ok' Dudes been here 3 times and pays in cash. In the end he rides the faders even. Its kind of like letting Jimmy steer the wheel of the ship while its on autopilot and your hands are on the real steering wheel just in case he makes too many dumb turns. It's an illusion. Just like when I started out pretending I knew it all, when in reality I was just doing the: 'fake it till you make it'. Some believed my bs. Some saw through it but played along. Just like I do for Mr. Fairchild I go to other studios for their rooms every so often. My 12 x 26 x 8 foot space sonetimes needs more room and the drums in several studios I go to are just fantastic and already set up. Thank the great god of outboard we all lie for one another. Or we'd be saying 'paper or plastic' instead of 'lets use the Fairchild 1176' I am writing a song called "Mr Fairchild" 8) cheers Wiz
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Post by EmRR on Jan 16, 2017 16:02:07 GMT -6
Another slice and dice on 'pro'.
I am self-employed. Studio is in a commercial space. Been there 19 years. I really work 3 jobs: music recording, freelance engineering (corporate/sports/webcasts/whoever calls), and custom tech work/repairs.
I don't think it makes me non-pro that I do all three. In fact I've found the freelance work has made me a much better music engineer, for a long list of reasons.
-Tech pays the best. Biggest PITA with most unknowns, you can eat a lot of time you can't charge if it goes badly, frequently can't quote a finish date or cost. Talk to 10x the number of possible clients than actually commit. You can spend a whole day making parts orders for a build. -freelance, second best. Hourly not quite as good as studio, but no overhead and fairly set hours with a lot of 'employee' type coasting time. -studio. 2nd best hourly, wildly unpredictable and huge overhead that makes no business sense on any level.
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Post by M57 on Jan 16, 2017 16:18:20 GMT -6
I'm not sure what the distinction is between musicians and bands and A/E people, which I interpreted to mean arts and entertainment. And yes, 30-40 years ago there was a community of bands and musicians who had interactions playing club dates together, playing as studio musicians and getting paid a living wage to do so. Simultaneously, they were going into recording studios to record cover and original music and the industry was thriving at a local, state and national level. 30-40 years ago the average musician did care, precisely because there were a tier of venues, where the better sounding bands and singer songwriters got paid more by the bigger venues if they sounded better. And they cared deeply in differentiating their sound precisely because they wanted to get to the upper tiers where the money was better. So, they went into studios with a well rehearsed band and- depending on which tier they were in financially- went into the tiered system of studios to sound better and struggle to get better, get more fans and make more money. There were also many more people with jobs involved in listening and evaluating music. From local disc jockey's to local promoter's to local studio owners, many people were invested, cared and competing at being better. It was a healthy capitalist model that was well dispersed across the nation. Yes, it's been a catastrophe on many levels. The technologists have won in what is essentially an economic revolution. Technology has opened up the floodgates of expression, but has simultaneously ruined the music and other art based businesses. And it's going to get worse, or better depending on how you look at it. The next wave of robotics is coming, which means that jobs like cabbies, truck drivers, food servers and anything that can be done robotically are going to be gone. This will lead to even less money circulating for arts. However, the technologists have this figured out. The non working populace will get a stipend and can sit in their homes, make music at their leisure and put it on the internet without having to do anything else. It's a paupers valhalla, or an orwellian nightmare depending on your point of view. You are precisely what the technologist's want, though I realize you came from a time when you didn't make a lot of money playing live compared to when the model was at its peak. I have no quarrel with your right to live your life the way you want, but philosophically I disagree with the entire model. I think the best things come out of struggle and competition in a moneyed reward system. 30-40 years ago, the music business was based on the struggle/competition/money reward system on a local, state and national level, because there was a large working class with money to spend on music, created full time by people making a living from it on many levels. That's all gone now for the most part. Some of us are raging at the dying light, but there's no escaping the direction we're heading, which is Tech's dream state. Hell yes, I'm a technologist. But for "technologists," musicians would be far and few. Most of us would be out on the farm working our fingers to the bone picking cotton to make our own clothes and worrying about how a bad crop might make it hard to get through the next winter. In your doomsday scenario where AI machines do everything for us, anyone who wants to can go to music school and pretty much do and be whatever they want. What is Orwellian about that?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 16, 2017 16:30:12 GMT -6
Interesting thread, this certainly bumps into questions we've all had to deal with at one time or another. Going back to the original post: How do you compete with the 10:00 an hour guy? You don't. He wants to be like YOU not the other way around. Anybody charging a rate like that already knows his actual capabilities and what they're worth- hence the low price tag...and the lousy recording. To me it sounds like he's a neophyte hobbyist who's only charging a token amount for the sole purpose of justifying burning the physical calories involved while he learns about it. It's not likely to take any food off of your table to be supportive. Conversely, I'd keep my distance from his clients- if they're OK with a crappy recording they probably understand they're not ready for a REAL studio yet anyway. Besides, it's not going to make your life any better with clients who aren't really sure about what they're doing and feel they're paying too much while figuring it out. BUT a little diplomacy can have surprising dividends over the long term when dealing with "minnows" like the guy who visited you. It can be worth being friendly because HE may bring his clients to YOU when he realizes the difference between what you CAN do versus what he CAN'T. When you're discussing the difference between the $10.00 an hour guy and yourself I think it's two pretty different ends of the food chain; it certainly is from HIS perspective...and that can be useful for you. I doubt he would've sought you out in the first place if he didn't already consider you an ACTUAL expert. Boost his confidence up a bit -yet diplomatically and honestly critique the flaws of his recording- and he could wind up being the guy who convinces the band it's worth coming to you instead of doing DIY. I'm sure he'd be just as thrilled to get his clients into a REAL studio - LIKE YOURS- as to produce the crap you heard from his basement...as long as he can somehow be a part of it. Brilliant post Jayson, well said!
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 16, 2017 16:49:57 GMT -6
Without the struggle, the art people make will be different. Is there a utopian future, where happy people make happy music for a happy world, maybe, but not likely. I would never assume to judge someone else's life choices. Who knows, maybe indie house will find his way to a new and even better paradigm for producing music. This I do know, because of the desire to become known for my music, I've experienced amazing things that would never have happened from the comfort of a good day job. I suspect that without the life risk, the rewards won't be as rich or as fulfilling as they might have been. That said, being on the other side of indiehouse's kind of choice, I suffered greatly. I think it depends on the individual, and there's no right or wrong. I also don't think an olympic level achievement happens by playing it safe either. I'm adjusting to the reality myself, and have made compromises, but I actually hope to compromise less and less as I get closer to my goal. I believe true success begins where your passion is. Indiehouse seems passionate enough about his work for something good to come of it from what I can tell, but my question is, will that be limited by supporting his work through his day job. I've done the same kind of thing, but had no choice because of serious illness. Now that I'm well, I hope to move away from the work I have to do toward the work I want to do. This is what I was talking about. This kind of thought that without suffering and struggling to feed their family, one will never be a truly great or successful "artist". Or that because I've "played it safe" and I'm not "risking it all", that what I produce will never be "great". I've been there and done the whole starving artist thing. I don't think that it has to be an either/or proposition.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 16, 2017 17:01:03 GMT -6
Hell yes, I'm a technologist. But for "technologists," musicians would be far and few. Most of us would be out on the farm working our fingers to the bone picking cotton to make our own clothes and worrying about how a bad crop might make it hard to get through the next winter. In your doomsday scenario where AI machines do everything for us, anyone who wants to can go to music school and pretty much do and be whatever they want. What is Orwellian about that? You've made up your mind this is a better model. That's fine with me.
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Post by rowmat on Jan 16, 2017 17:05:15 GMT -6
Once you establish yourself and begin to get fairly regular work falling into the trap of competing on price can quickly turn into a race to the bottom.
If there's not a looming deadline to finish a project we encourage clients to budget for blocks of two days here, or three days there often over several months.
Budgeting for $1000 to $1500 every few weeks is much easier than finding $3000 or $4000 after a week of tracking an album and then having to contemplate another $4000 or $5000 for mixing and then $1000 plus for mastering.
If you add session players then than can add another $400 to $800 per day per session player depending on the number of tracks and the 'worth' of the player.
A current client came in to record 4 tracks with the hope of maybe 6 tracks over two days.
This has since turned into a 12 track album with around 12 days of studio time so far. I figure she will have spent around $10,000 to $12,000 with us (excluding session players) over 20 days by the time we finish mixing it.
Most of our clients typically spend around $4000 to $6000 per project (often 4 track EP's). Strangely around half come from interstate (mainly from Sydney or NSW).
Nearly all are singer/songwriters with original material and come to us mainly as my studio partner is a well regarded musician/producer with around 30 years experience and Australian ARIA Award (equivalent of a US Grammy Award).
We have never actually 'competed' for work per-say. If that was to become the norm then I would pack it in a heartbeat.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 16, 2017 18:41:50 GMT -6
indiehouse said, "This is what I was talking about. This kind of thought that without suffering and struggling to feed their family, one will never be a truly great or successful "artist". Or that because I've "played it safe" and I'm not "risking it all", that what I produce will never be "great". I've been there and done the whole starving artist thing. I don't think that it has to be an either/or proposition".
I don't think you fully understood my point, but perhaps I didn't make it well. I said, "my question is, will that be limited by supporting his work through his day job". I don't have an answer, and didn't offer a definitive opinion that one must starve and suffer for art to be great. First of all, that can never be fully answered because only until someone is acknowledged as being great, can you look at how they did it, and make some judgements. So, feeling that it "doesn't have to be an either/or thing" is fine, but feeling isn't fact. If we could look at the lives of say.. 100 great artists, I'd bet 98 of them struggled and suffered somehow, and I'd guess that even those who didn't suffer financially may have had other serious issues. Talouse Latrec was from a wealthy family, but was freaky short and he had to work incredibly hard to pay all his family debts to keep his family name a good one.
I actually don't think an artist has to "starve" to be great. Starving and suffering are two different things. That leads to the next question, well, does an artist have to suffer, I don't know, maybe not, but they sure seems to go hand in hand far too often to be coincidence. I do think an artist must have an inner drive to bring something wondrous to the world though.
If there's a quality I think that would enable an artist to be great without suffering or starving, I'd say great empathy might do it. Bruce Springsteen been rich since he was 25, but his music reflects a deep compassion for people.
Look at someone like Tom Petty, I've never heard that guy whine in public, but in his recent documentary, it was clear he was greatly abused by his father. So, starving wasn't the issue, although he clearly had nothing in his pockets when he went to L.A to seek a deal.
Maybe where we'll land here in our discussion is that each person defines success in a personal way. I would never judge someone's choice to cover their ass while pursuing a dream, I've done that too at times. But, if I'm being honest, the amazing experiences I've had could only have happened if I was immersed in the culture and risking a life failure. Many of my good friends are gone now, all from risking everything, and not having the skills and tools to handle the difficulties.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,937
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Post by ericn on Jan 16, 2017 19:08:31 GMT -6
One thing that we gloss over; in a vocation where there is a belief that there is a minuscule chance for one to be discovered and reach the world of fame and fortune, there have always been those who will give it away for exposure! The fact that in our case the tools have gotten cheaper and better , the exceptable standards have tanked and the chances of fame and fortune have shrunk! How do we demonstrate that our skill set is an asset when our potential customers are most likely going to be giving away their product for free on you tube or fractions of a fraction of a fraction of a cent on streaming services? Let's add in a world where the consumer expects to pay less than what we paid for a single CD for unlimited music per month?
We have to figure out how we represent added value to a loss leader, that is our collective problem in a world where the manufacturers who build what us see as tools are having a great Buisness selling our tools as toys.
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Post by M57 on Jan 16, 2017 19:24:22 GMT -6
The best works of most famous artists and musicians are created while they're hugely famous fat cats, so apparently you only have to suffer once to become artist in the first place. Yeah, right. I'll conjecture that most artists rise out of poverty because most people are born into poverty. I wonder if anyone has done any studies on that. Certainly, there are a great many artists who never reach their potential because of poverty, persecution, oppression, etc. As far as I'm concerned, artists only have to suffer because the capitalist machine demands it.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 16, 2017 19:31:15 GMT -6
I would never judge someone's choice to cover their ass while pursuing a dream, I've done that too at times. But, if I'm being honest, the amazing experiences I've had could only have happened if I was immersed in the culture and risking a life failure. Many of my good friends are gone now, all from risking everything, and not having the skills and tools to handle the difficulties. Totally agree with this. It's something I think about often. I know there are missed opportunities that are inevitable for me. Those opportunities will always go to the guy who has more time than me. And that's the price I pay.
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