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Post by Guitar on Mar 3, 2017 12:25:13 GMT -6
Hey all I been working like a dog the last few weeks but... I did print some mixes digital and tape. If there's interest I can put up a link. Let me know. I would be interested!
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 3, 2017 13:23:56 GMT -6
Not currently. So far aside from this thread, all the other comparisons were done with material we dont have permission to share. Be glad to share the Ampex stuff with Wiz's permission. Thanks -L. It would be nice to have some comparisons . Like send an all digital ITB mix to the guys at Welcome To 1979...have them send the ITB mix to tape and back from many different tape machines and then run the ITB mix through Zulu as well . Then offer those bounces for download . That would be cool ! Sounds like you might have something similar to that with one of Wiz's songs ? NOT a valid comparison. If it goes to digital first sometjhing essential gets lost, so if you want to do a valid comparison of a multitrack you need to do the initial trackng with it. We were discussing the purchase of a mulitrack machine, remember?
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Post by illacov on Mar 3, 2017 14:11:40 GMT -6
Hey all I been working like a dog the last few weeks but... I did print some mixes digital and tape. If there's interest I can put up a link. Let me know. I know the feeling my man. However I'm happy to be working this much! I need to upload those files already. Thanks -L.
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Post by svart on Mar 4, 2017 11:29:27 GMT -6
I'm picking the atr80 up tomorrow. I still have to run another power circuit to it, and start building wiring harnesses as well as finish my relay board. It'll be a few weeks before I even get sound through it, but I'm excited.
I've mentioned it to a band who was waffling about coming to the studio and they immediately booked a session to "try tape" in a month.
Guess I better get busy.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,082
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Post by ericn on Mar 4, 2017 12:09:33 GMT -6
I'm picking the atr80 up tomorrow. I still have to run another power circuit to it, and start building wiring harnesses as well as finish my relay board. It'll be a few weeks before I even get sound through it, but I'm excited. I've mentioned it to a band who was waffling about coming to the studio and they immediately booked a session to "try tape" in a month. Guess I better get busy. Did you get a head report? Wouldn't book time with it till I knew the condition of the heads! Congratulations, I have to admit I have been kicking the tires on a couple of Otaris!
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Post by svart on Mar 4, 2017 13:16:46 GMT -6
I'm picking the atr80 up tomorrow. I still have to run another power circuit to it, and start building wiring harnesses as well as finish my relay board. It'll be a few weeks before I even get sound through it, but I'm excited. I've mentioned it to a band who was waffling about coming to the studio and they immediately booked a session to "try tape" in a month. Guess I better get busy. Did you get a head report? Wouldn't book time with it till I knew the condition of the heads! Congratulations, I have to admit I have been kicking the tires on a couple of Otaris! One thing I learned while looking at tape machines is that 95% of them don't have head reports and a few that do, the report is old or seems fishy.. So anyway, no, but I did inspect it to the best of my ability and the heads look really good. The machine supposedly has low hours due to a death and subsequent storage of the machine and other gear. I think it'll need a recapping, and re-calibration. Currently looking for a calibration tape for 15ips. I initially wanted an Otari, but the tascam is just more reliable mechanically.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,082
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Post by ericn on Mar 4, 2017 18:23:47 GMT -6
Did you get a head report? Wouldn't book time with it till I knew the condition of the heads! Congratulations, I have to admit I have been kicking the tires on a couple of Otaris! One thing I learned while looking at tape machines is that 95% of them don't have head reports and a few that do, the report is old or seems fishy.. So anyway, no, but I did inspect it to the best of my ability and the heads look really good. The machine supposedly has low hours due to a death and subsequent storage of the machine and other gear. I think it'll need a recapping, and re-calibration. Currently looking for a calibration tape for 15ips. I initially wanted an Otari, but the tascam is just more reliable mechanically. True most don't have a head report, and that fact is one of the reasons most sit on the market, in fact it's one of the reasons I haven't Bought a couple of machines the fact that a new set of heads can cost 1/2 to as much as a machine is a big deal! Even the guys who do the head reports will tell you their visual inspection holds as much weight as a blind person's, so the $300- $400 I remember a report costing can be either a huge savings or a great bargaining chip. As far as reliability, yeah every tech I know sees a lot more Otari's vs Tascam ATR's, of course there are a ton more Otari 2 inch machines out there and having worked next to our service Dept for years when tape was the norm, I remember the number of decks being serviced vs sales being pretty equal but I do remember the early Tascam ATR's making more trips for service, so I would call them equal! Also I remember the average Ontario buyer having more experience with large tape decks vs Tascam and this resulting in more calls for help with the Tascam's. That's the problem with a tech telling you one unit is more reliable, they always base their numbers on what they see infront of them without knowing how many are out their!
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Post by scumbum on Mar 5, 2017 11:36:03 GMT -6
Eric Valentine seems to like Digital first / tape second . Heres his explanation , but I don't fully grasp it . I think he says its easier to get a harsh high end going analog first / digital second . "the other benefit of doing digital first/analog second is the sound. One of the things that most people credit for the pleasing sound of analog is the harmonic coloration. Tape machines are adding a healthy dose of 3rd order harmonics. I believe it is these harmonics that give tape its somewhat magical airy, dense but very un harsh high end. This is what I believe is going on: lets say you have a cymbal sound that is focussed around 10K. The 3rd order harmonic that is generated by the tape machine above that is about 30K. So now you have this very hi over tone that is interacting with the original sound that will subtly change the character of the sound (there is debate about if/why/how these overtones affect things but we'll assume they do for the purpose of this example). If you then transfer the analog recording to digital lets at 48K, there is a very necessary brick wall low pass filter at 24K to eliminate the digital aliasing noise. Goodbye 30K overtone. The 30K overtone is not just filtered off. It is first devoured by hideous square wave digital noise and then filtered off. (This explanation is based on my somewhat limited knowledge of digital technology and could be better explained by a digital expert.) The one thing I have experienced over and over is the difference I feel when mixing from analog verses digital. It is way easier for me to get the high end to "open up" when mixing from analog. I can boost the high end very aggressively without it being harsh. When digital is last in the chain for some reason I feel like I am pushing against a ceiling with the EQs. Things tend to transition into harsh more easily before they open up." www.gearslutz.com/board/q-eric-valentine/631591-current-use-analog-tape.html#post6947840
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Post by illacov on Mar 5, 2017 14:12:31 GMT -6
Eric Valentine seems to like Digital first / tape second . Heres his explanation , but I don't fully grasp it . I think he says its easier to get a harsh high end going analog first / digital second . "the other benefit of doing digital first/analog second is the sound. One of the things that most people credit for the pleasing sound of analog is the harmonic coloration. Tape machines are adding a healthy dose of 3rd order harmonics. I believe it is these harmonics that give tape its somewhat magical airy, dense but very un harsh high end. This is what I believe is going on: lets say you have a cymbal sound that is focussed around 10K. The 3rd order harmonic that is generated by the tape machine above that is about 30K. So now you have this very hi over tone that is interacting with the original sound that will subtly change the character of the sound (there is debate about if/why/how these overtones affect things but we'll assume they do for the purpose of this example). If you then transfer the analog recording to digital lets at 48K, there is a very necessary brick wall low pass filter at 24K to eliminate the digital aliasing noise. Goodbye 30K overtone. The 30K overtone is not just filtered off. It is first devoured by hideous square wave digital noise and then filtered off. (This explanation is based on my somewhat limited knowledge of digital technology and could be better explained by a digital expert.) The one thing I have experienced over and over is the difference I feel when mixing from analog verses digital. It is way easier for me to get the high end to "open up" when mixing from analog. I can boost the high end very aggressively without it being harsh. When digital is last in the chain for some reason I feel like I am pushing against a ceiling with the EQs. Things tend to transition into harsh more easily before they open up." www.gearslutz.com/board/q-eric-valentine/631591-current-use-analog-tape.html#post6947840I love Eric Valentine, but this isn't quite how I've experienced it. Everything we record comes from analog to digital unless its software generated. Audio that's focused at 10K still exhibits energy beyond and below it, unless its a perfect focused wave of energy. I look at it as the harmonic potential of audio. In order for tape to be stimulated at any frequency, there has to be an adequate amplitude of said frequency present. If you go to digital first, then the high step HF attenuation is in effect dipping below and above that corner frequency while creating resonance there that is often referred to as digital harshness. The filtering itself, on some level the way that we view tape, impacts the harmonics of the audio to DIGITAL as well. You've in effect stripped away information that other analog equipment is effected by. Even if you dump to tape at that point, the information that he's referring to is severely attenuated and won't exhibit the same results as if you recorded to tape first or hit it on the way in. The results will be very different. I heard this with my multi-track dumps from digital to tape and I've heard it from tracking thru or onto tape and then hitting digital. The joy of digital is that you enjoy the convenience of editing, endless takes, lightning fast adjustments and ease of recall. It also has some degree of accuracy that tape as a concept does not inherently offer on its own. Beyond that however, if you can integrate tape into the digital process as the front end, even if it means as the seasoning ingredient and if you're like me, learn to bias and calibrate your deck to the way that best flatters your system in the first place, then the benefit of analog first is HUGE. Imagine the awesome benefits of hitting tape or Zulu first while cranking some top end eq @ 10K or 16K and how that will result in some pretty sweet harmonic behavior. At the bare minimum, against the anti-aliasing filter, the phenomenon is engaged, whereas in post it has to be created some other way. I also think that in scenarios he is referring to, if you had converters that didn't use an antialiasing filter at 24K and instead they had them at say 96K for a 192KHZ capture, it would be interesting to hear the differences. Personally I'd rather have converters that could capture without the use of filtering in this manner at all. Thanks -L.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 5, 2017 14:38:02 GMT -6
Eric Valentine seems to like Digital first / tape second . Heres his explanation , but I don't fully grasp it . I think he says its easier to get a harsh high end going analog first / digital second . "the other benefit of doing digital first/analog second is the sound. One of the things that most people credit for the pleasing sound of analog is the harmonic coloration. Tape machines are adding a healthy dose of 3rd order harmonics. I believe it is these harmonics that give tape its somewhat magical airy, dense but very un harsh high end. This is what I believe is going on: lets say you have a cymbal sound that is focussed around 10K. The 3rd order harmonic that is generated by the tape machine above that is about 30K. So now you have this very hi over tone that is interacting with the original sound that will subtly change the character of the sound (there is debate about if/why/how these overtones affect things but we'll assume they do for the purpose of this example). If you then transfer the analog recording to digital lets at 48K, there is a very necessary brick wall low pass filter at 24K to eliminate the digital aliasing noise. Goodbye 30K overtone. The 30K overtone is not just filtered off. It is first devoured by hideous square wave digital noise and then filtered off. (This explanation is based on my somewhat limited knowledge of digital technology and could be better explained by a digital expert.) The one thing I have experienced over and over is the difference I feel when mixing from analog verses digital. It is way easier for me to get the high end to "open up" when mixing from analog. I can boost the high end very aggressively without it being harsh. When digital is last in the chain for some reason I feel like I am pushing against a ceiling with the EQs. Things tend to transition into harsh more easily before they open up." www.gearslutz.com/board/q-eric-valentine/631591-current-use-analog-tape.html#post6947840Aside from the fact that he has his basic facts wrong, that's just another "opinion" on GS... and even well known people sometimes have somewhat screwy ideas. Modern digital converters are based on delta-sigma recording techniques and don't use the brickwall filter at 20/24/whatever - the initial digital conversion is via DSD and the filtering is moved up into the hundreds of kHz range, then it's downconverted..... "somewhat limited knowledge of digital technology" - ah, YUP! (10 or 15 years ago he would have been right, but that's ancient history now...) There are other problems with his argument as well but I'm not going into a lot of detail. Let's just say that his knowledge of analog is on about the same level as his knowledge of digital. Without knowing his exact chain it's hard to say what might be contributing to his opinion, perhaps he's doing a lot of digital processing which definitely might contribute to that point of view. Perhaps he's talking about mixing to tape, which is an entirely different matter than tracking to tape. I suspect that you're not fully understanding what he's saying and that there's a fair amount left unsaid in that quote.
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Post by svart on Mar 5, 2017 22:51:44 GMT -6
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Post by wiz on Mar 5, 2017 23:03:16 GMT -6
looks fantastic
cheers
Wiz
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Post by svart on Mar 16, 2017 8:31:10 GMT -6
So I'm finally getting things hooked up and together, and got the unit to play a used tape. Seemed to sound pretty good!
However, I have a couple problems that are dogging me from going further..
The remote unit has an issue where all of the buttons are "offset" so that the button next to it is what turns the function on.. Say the REWIND, PLAY and STOP buttons are side-by-side, the PLAY button is what stops the unit, and the REWIND is what plays, etc..
However, occasionally it works normally! I've recapped the remote and fixed the power supply, but it still does it (more often than not..), and that means that the RECORD STANDBY button isn't what it should be, and I can't figure out how to get the unit out of SAFE without the remote working..
Which leads me to the issue of.. How do I arm the tracks and record without the remote?
And before you ask, I have had the hardest time finding a copy of the manual, printed, scanned, PDF or otherwise. They just don't seem to exist.
There has got to be a way to use the machine without the remote, hasn't there? I just can't seem to figure out how to arm the tracks.
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Post by drbill on Mar 16, 2017 9:34:34 GMT -6
That's weird that t's intermittent. Have you tried Tascam service in Montebello CA? There ARE machines that can't really be used without the remote (arming, punching in, etc.) . I'm not sure about the tascam you've got. Those were never really very widely used from what I saw - say compared to studers, otari's or mci's. Good luck.
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Post by svart on Mar 16, 2017 9:38:11 GMT -6
That's weird that t's intermittent. Have you tried Tascam service in Montebello CA? There ARE machines that can't really be used without the remote (arming, punching in, etc.) . I'm not sure about the tascam you've got. Those were never really very widely used from what I saw - say compared to studers, otari's or mci's. Good luck. I'll try them, but there are forums with folks also looking who claimed Tascam essentially told them they didn't have anything to give them.. But it looks like some of the other machines of the era, the Otari MTR-90 also need the remote to arm tracks. I guess it was just how they were used at the time. I have a new cable coming, and I'm hoping that it's just a bad cable..
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Post by popmann on Mar 16, 2017 10:08:07 GMT -6
While I don't agree 100% with his assement, Eric is not "just another opinion on GS".
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Post by stratboy on Mar 17, 2017 4:40:49 GMT -6
That's weird that t's intermittent. Have you tried Tascam service in Montebello CA? There ARE machines that can't really be used without the remote (arming, punching in, etc.) . I'm not sure about the tascam you've got. Those were never really very widely used from what I saw - say compared to studers, otari's or mci's. Good luck. I'll try them, but there are forums with folks also looking who claimed Tascam essentially told them they didn't have anything to give them.. But it looks like some of the other machines of the era, the Otari MTR-90 also need the remote to arm tracks. I guess it was just how they were used at the time. I have a new cable coming, and I'm hoping that it's just a bad cable.. I have found the guys in the Tascam parts department to be very willing to have a conversation and try to help. Bad cable or perhaps a bridged pin in one of the connectors might make sense here.
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Post by svart on Mar 17, 2017 7:04:00 GMT -6
I'll try them, but there are forums with folks also looking who claimed Tascam essentially told them they didn't have anything to give them.. But it looks like some of the other machines of the era, the Otari MTR-90 also need the remote to arm tracks. I guess it was just how they were used at the time. I have a new cable coming, and I'm hoping that it's just a bad cable.. I have found the guys in the Tascam parts department to be very willing to have a conversation and try to help. Bad cable or perhaps a bridged pin in one of the connectors might make sense here. Hopefully they can offer something, a manual, a schematic, or something. But anyway, I think I've fixed it! I wholesale replaced the main power supply. I had recapped it originally, but it still acted strangely, with a very slow ramp-up time. I wasn't about to troubleshoot some old-tech SMPS, so I replaced it with a shiny new Point of Load SMPS (very small outline, high efficiency), and now it works great. I rebooted the unit a number of times and it worked normally each time. I think the slow ramp-up was causing a glitch in these old TTL chips. Yes, the controller board for the remote is about 12"x10" of nothing but gates, buffers, and other logic, and perhaps an 80 series CPU. One day, if I can find the schematic for the remote, I might replace all that crap with a couple modern micros and likely use 1/10th the power.. One other thing I noticed is that channel 24 is low compared to most of the others, so that will need to be fixed.
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Post by wiz on Mar 17, 2017 14:21:09 GMT -6
I have found the guys in the Tascam parts department to be very willing to have a conversation and try to help. Bad cable or perhaps a bridged pin in one of the connectors might make sense here. Hopefully they can offer something, a manual, a schematic, or something. But anyway, I think I've fixed it! I wholesale replaced the main power supply. I had recapped it originally, but it still acted strangely, with a very slow ramp-up time. I wasn't about to troubleshoot some old-tech SMPS, so I replaced it with a shiny new Point of Load SMPS (very small outline, high efficiency), and now it works great. I rebooted the unit a number of times and it worked normally each time. I think the slow ramp-up was causing a glitch in these old TTL chips. Yes, the controller board for the remote is about 12"x10" of nothing but gates, buffers, and other logic, and perhaps an 80 series CPU. One day, if I can find the schematic for the remote, I might replace all that crap with a couple modern micros and likely use 1/10th the power.. One other thing I noticed is that channel 24 is low compared to most of the others, so that will need to be fixed. aaah good power.. the root of all goodness in audio... well done mate! cheers Wiz
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Post by svart on Mar 17, 2017 15:04:30 GMT -6
Hopefully they can offer something, a manual, a schematic, or something. But anyway, I think I've fixed it! I wholesale replaced the main power supply. I had recapped it originally, but it still acted strangely, with a very slow ramp-up time. I wasn't about to troubleshoot some old-tech SMPS, so I replaced it with a shiny new Point of Load SMPS (very small outline, high efficiency), and now it works great. I rebooted the unit a number of times and it worked normally each time. I think the slow ramp-up was causing a glitch in these old TTL chips. Yes, the controller board for the remote is about 12"x10" of nothing but gates, buffers, and other logic, and perhaps an 80 series CPU. One day, if I can find the schematic for the remote, I might replace all that crap with a couple modern micros and likely use 1/10th the power.. One other thing I noticed is that channel 24 is low compared to most of the others, so that will need to be fixed. aaah good power.. the root of all goodness in audio... well done mate! cheers Wiz Thanks! It's hard working on these older designs. Today's electronics generally employ power-on watchdog devices, either externally to the micros, or internally, so that they are practically glitch-less. The older stuff is prone to all kinds of glitching from power systems and can even be sensitive to which power rail comes up first/last, etc. plus, without a schematic, it's practically shooting in the dark.
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Post by reddirt on Mar 17, 2017 16:06:49 GMT -6
Nice looking machine; there are elements of the sound that you are going to love, particularly in my tape experience, how easy it is to get a wide vocal sound that feels simple and natural. Keep us posted. Cheers, Ross
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Post by svart on Mar 17, 2017 16:11:49 GMT -6
Nice looking machine; there are elements of the sound that you are going to love, particularly in my tape experience, how easy it is to get a wide vocal sound that feels simple and natural. Keep us posted. Cheers, Ross I can tell you that just playing drums into it last night sounded great. It's just a completely different texture to things. I was pushing the preamps hard into the machine just to see what would happen and the snare took on a different tone that was great. The kick, however, completely broke up and got too crunchy. It's definitely going to be a steep curve to re-learn the sweet spots for instruments and levels. There's still things that need to be worked on, a couple of the channels seem to be weak, and I've already ordered 1700 capacitors for an eventual recap of the audio cards..
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Post by BradM on Mar 17, 2017 18:34:15 GMT -6
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Post by topshelfmg on Mar 18, 2017 17:55:38 GMT -6
I rescued an Otari MTR-12 from an NBC storage unit about a year ago, and got it for a great price since the guy who owned the storage unit was moving and had a bad back. It has only been requested maybe twice (after being offered) since I purchased it, so it is hardly "in demand", but I have found it quite handy for tape mix down when I want something more authentic than a plugin, and for slap / tape echo. Since it has a vari-speed, its been pretty cool for that application. For the price I paid, I'm very happy to have it though. It is well under the going rate of a good tape echo these days, and it certainly wows the artists every now and then when they walk in, but I feel like I haven't really gotten all that much of an increase in work at all for offering the option. As stated above, that is mainly a reputation thing that drives traffic, and then things like microphones and compressors. Granted, it may look good to an artist that I am a younger guy offering tape mix down, but it hasn't ever been, and will probably never be the driving factor behind me getting my work. When I was in Chuck Ainley's room for a gear demo, and asked him about the Ampex in the corner, he stated he had not used his at all in a couple years.
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Post by topshelfmg on Mar 18, 2017 18:06:07 GMT -6
Also, I personally always wanted a tape machine, so I did it as much for myself as I did for my current and future clients. If you want a tape machine and can get a good price, then I say go for it. With everything I said above, I still plan on getting a Studer or Ampex someday for the different tonal option. I currently have two channels of Ampex 601, but they have been modified into microphone preamps, and I love how they sound. Tape machines that aren't intended just for mix down and mastering are a different beast though. 4, 8, 16, and 24 track machines take a special kind of artist to request, since they have to rehearse much more and can't lean on "fixing it in the mix" as much as they can tracking straight into a DAW. It's also a fine line if you want to charge more to track or mix down to tape. It takes up more time, and requires what nowadays can be considered a special skill set, but at the same time many artists may scoff at the idea of not only giving up complicated comping and editing, but paying extra to do so... even if it's just your typical hourly rate. Of course, artists who still know their songs like the back of their hand, and actually want that experience still exist. Those numbers are just unfortunately somewhat limited as far as my generation at least, based on my experience.
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