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Post by jazznoise on Oct 18, 2016 20:10:20 GMT -6
<gasp> "Ma, bring me my homeopathic valium, quick! They discuss power cords on the internet again!" Best post. /thread
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 18, 2016 20:14:13 GMT -6
smallbutfine said, "Since no severe changes in the laws of nature have happened, i really am not even the slightest bit curios about listening for a difference myself. Because i *know* that no golden ear can change the laws of electrodynamics that are relevant in this case".
Perhaps there are some things relevant we're missing? Since you're not the slightest bit curious to try listening for yourself, thereby using the absolute most sophisticated listening devices we have, our ears, I respectfully think that's an unfair way of approaching this discussion. If you carefully audition some cables, a power cord or two, and notice an improvement or a difference, then perhaps you might be motivated to figure out why and we all gain. It stands to reason that those of us who've found that cabling can sound different, like me and Jim Williams and others are not in fact imagining it. I've been at this professionally for most of my life, and I know something when I hear it.
It all may be the power sucks here in Manhattan, but I have friends in New Jersey, the Berkshires, Texas and L.A. who've found certain cables sounded better than others, so maybe not, or it's the US power sources.
*svart said this earlier, "By proposing to do nothing more than superficial listening tests". If that's not a bias, I've never seen one. Listening superficial? No way, no how. Is it superficial to compare how converters sound by listening? Superficial to compare a redline to a blueline skin on a mic? I don't think so, sorry.
Here's one example, I didn't need a test lab, blind tests, specs and machines to corroborate my findings and prove to me that the Svartbox offered some improvement over the converters I had, I carefully compared, and listened, and I'm certain I was correct, the svartbox had some qualities that were more desirable.
To me, listening trumps everything else.
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Post by rowmat on Oct 18, 2016 20:39:11 GMT -6
Ok guys not trying to be rude but what does a power cable have to do with making/ listening to good music? And why is USA power inferior to 240v power and why would a cable make any difference? Thanks Your first question is highly controversial and will open a portal into what is known as the "How Power Cord's Do/Do Not Affect Audio Quality" rabbit hole from which, once entered, you may never return. As for your second question, You maybe familiar with some of this so apologies if you are. Power in watts ('P') equals Volts ('V') multiplied by Amps ('I') P=VI If you have some gear that say requires 2400 watts and your supply voltage is 120Vac then your cable has to be able to supply 20 amps of current. ie. 120v X 20 amps = 2400 watts If however your supply voltage is 240Vac then the cable only needs to cope with 10 amps of current. ie. 240v X 10 amps = 2400 watts Doubling the voltage halves the current requirement and vice versa. So 240vac places lower demands on power cabling as far as current is concerned than does 120vac as it is the current that determines the minimum conductor gauge not the voltage.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 18, 2016 21:09:18 GMT -6
My answer to M57 is that in my experience, a higher end power cable can have the effect of revealing some things you didn't notice before, like where the string section players are sitting relative to each other, or more depth in the soundstage. So it helps me to enjoy listening to music more, because i feel the space more, and the players feel more real and live. Detail and nuance are more evident, which feels more intimate and connected.
As for making good music, I enjoy productions with clarity and intelligibility, and if a power cord helps me get a clearer, less hazy sound, it helps me to make better decisions.
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 18, 2016 21:24:31 GMT -6
But that's not what we're discussing. The skeptics are wanting to know if there is some kind of unknown "magic" in a 300$ power cord that isn't in a standard cord. However, most folks astute enough to care about power cords in the first place would know to buy one with a heavier gauge. Most houses have 14GA romex, so to satisfy you and the skeptics, order the cheapest piece of 14GA IEC cable you can find. That satisfies both parties and should solve the ferrari vs jetta issue as well. I have always considered #14 to be inadequate, especially the solid kind. I hate Romex. I remember seeing a paper/report somewhere that showed that twisting AC wiring similar to twisted pair networking or Telco cabling showed a measurable improvement in performance. There's no way that an adequate twist can be applied to Romex. What you have to understand is that all those ratings are based solely on what size wire can be used that is adequate to not dangerously overheat and catch your house on fire, not what won't interfere with the free passage of current. If you want a real comparison the cables must be the same guage. Otherwise you're comparing avocados to kumquats.
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Post by drbill on Oct 18, 2016 21:32:10 GMT -6
Well aware John. Wired the new studio with 10Ga - even though we all know 18GA crappy IEC cables are more than adequate for the power delivery requirements of virtually everything sitting in a rack. And yes, twisted is the way to go.
That said, I'd be willing to bet 92.7% of guys with studios here have 14GA in the wall....
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 18, 2016 21:32:45 GMT -6
2. The wire gauge transfers the energy from the wall socket, to the device, in spec... which would mean the previous cable could not. 3. Shielding stopping magnetic interference. Wiz #2, possibly. IO don't think stock cables work particulatly well, more like they're the lowest common denominator of what more or less works. #3, shielding on cable cannot and will not stop magnetic interference. You'd need mu metal for that, or a similar specialized high tech alloy. Cable shielding stops RFI interference.
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Post by rowmat on Oct 18, 2016 22:02:42 GMT -6
#2, possibly. IO don't think stock cables work particulatly well, more like they're the lowest common denominator of what more or less works. #3, shielding on cable cannot and will not stop magnetic interference. You'd need mu metal for that, or a similar specialized high tech alloy. Cable shielding stops RFI interference. Just to clarify John... the above are excerpts from Wiz's post, not mine.
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Post by ragan on Oct 18, 2016 23:06:01 GMT -6
I built my room and I got fancy. I used 12-2 Romex. I always use that for power and 14-2 for lights. I'm just kind of a high roller I guess.
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Post by M57 on Oct 19, 2016 4:15:40 GMT -6
Ok guys not trying to be rude but what does a power cable have to do with making/listening to good music? That part I understand. It has nothing to do with 'good music,' bur allegedly everything to do with the mining every last drop of the quality and nuances of a recording. So the way I see it, other than introducing noise and other artifacts into the sound, I don't see the point. You're not going to make it any better than the original - and if you somehow do, it could be argued that that was not the intention of the people who made the recording. (Assuming the goal is "faithful" reproduction)
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Post by jeremygillespie on Oct 19, 2016 5:18:37 GMT -6
Well aware John. Wired the new studio with 10Ga - even though we all know 18GA crappy IEC cables are more than adequate for the power delivery requirements of virtually everything sitting in a rack. And yes, twisted is the way to go. That said, I'd be willing to bet 92.7% of guys with studios here have 14GA in the wall.... I'm going to be doing a build in about a year. What is the twisted 10ga cable you used in the walls? Anything special going on in your panel?
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 19, 2016 6:04:15 GMT -6
Well aware John. Wired the new studio with 10Ga - even though we all know 18GA crappy IEC cables are more than adequate for the power delivery requirements of virtually everything sitting in a rack. And yes, twisted is the way to go. That said, I'd be willing to bet 92.7% of guys with studios here have 14GA in the wall.... I'm going to be doing a build in about a year. What is the twisted 10ga cable you used in the walls? Anything special going on in your panel? I have not had the opportunity or funding to try twisted power cable myself. As I recall, I read about it in a white paper from Jensen Transformers, but don't remember which one or the absolute context. AFAIK, you'd have to apply the twist yourself, I don't know of any supplier for it as a commercial product. When doing building wiring (I've done a couple of nightclubs and small theaters) my preference is #12 or #10 stranded wire in hard conduit.
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Post by ariel on Oct 19, 2016 7:48:50 GMT -6
Are these power cables just a heavier gauge? If so then can't a power bar be made with just that and not cost a huge amount? What is the reason that these cables cost a ton ?
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Post by donr on Oct 19, 2016 8:07:39 GMT -6
So does Pensado's mix with the Essential power cable on the Clariphonic sound better than than without it by the time it gets to my iPhone?
I've got one of those power cables that look a lot like the Essential, came from my hi-fi shop in the early 2000's. It makes gear sound better, at least I'm convinced it does. Don't know why. Can't justify a $200 power cord for everything though. You'd think a power cord made of Romex would be ideal, wouldn't you?
More astonishing to me was the difference between 16 ga zip cord and Audio Quest bi-wire on B+W 700 series speakers. Night and day. I don't understand bi-wire, the signal still goes through a passive cross-over on its way to the drivers inside the speaker. But the difference isn't subtle.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Oct 19, 2016 8:35:47 GMT -6
You'd think a power cord made of Romex would be ideal, wouldn't you? This is what I'm trying to figure out, and there hasn't really been any answer to this. Lets say you have 200 ft of 12Ga romex that goes from your panel to your studio room, and all of your outlets are run off this leg. No matter what do you, the power is never going to get better than what this 200ft of romex is able to afford you. Get a $2,000 power cable, still wont make a lick of difference because the limiting factor is the romex. Now, I can understand that a completely crap IEC cable that is worse than the romex would have a negative effect on the signal. I don't think anybody would argue that. But, why not go get 50 ft of romex and some connectors, cut it into 6ft section and make power cables out of that? You've got 200ft of it upstream that is feeding your equipment anyway.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 19, 2016 8:48:47 GMT -6
It's a bit over my head, but is it possible that some power cords might offer something that Romex doesn't? Filtering, better termination,whatever?
By the way, I noticed that Donr heard differences when switching to a higher end power cable, and Donr's been around the block a few times. Donr said,"It makes gear sound better, at least I'm convinced it does. Don't know why. Can't justify a $200 power cord for everything though".
Same here, if I could, I'd put one of my favorite power cords on everything, but that would be crazy prioritizing on my meager budget. Another Warm EQP-1A or a nice K-84 would bring much more bang for the buck for sure.
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Post by jin167 on Oct 19, 2016 8:59:20 GMT -6
Why not build your own perfect power generator and run everything off of that rather than relying on a sub-par public power system? Why not replace wire connections inside of your outboard gears and speakers with high-end boutique cables? Why not swap out all the connectors of your equipment to hospital or military grade ones?
These are all bottlenecks of a given system right? I won't be able to sleep at night knowing that I have so many bottlenecks in my system degrading the quality of my music. Jesus..
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 19, 2016 9:06:40 GMT -6
PS Audio does just that, regenerate power. It costs from $2,500 -$5,000. For wealthy audiophiles, it's a no brainer, although I don't know much about it. So, although expensive, but maybe it's not insane money if you're running a small or mid size studio. Take a quick look: www.psaudio.com/product-category/ac-regenerators/
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Post by jeremygillespie on Oct 19, 2016 9:12:25 GMT -6
It's a bit over my head, but is it possible that some power cords might offer something that Romex doesn't? Filtering, better termination,whatever? By the way, I noticed that Donr heard differences when switching to a higher end power cable, and Donr's been around the block a few times. Donr said,"It makes gear sound better, at least I'm convinced it does. Don't know why. Can't justify a $200 power cord for everything though".Same here, if I could, I'd put one of my favorite power cords on everything, but that would be crazy prioritizing on my meager budget. Another Warm EQP-1A or a nice K-84 would bring much more bang for the buck for sure. For sure. I'm not in any way disputing that the cable makes things sound different, or better, etc. I've got limited knowledge on this stuff and just looking for a better explanation than "it just does" haha. I won't say that anybody is making up what they are hearing. I know for sure over my years learning from engineers as an assistant - it took me 2 years to actually really hear subtle compression, subtle eq changes, and I had to really sit and listen and train my ears. Put somebody with no critical listening experience in front of a pair of monitors and ask them to tell you the difference between a Fairchild and a Pendulum ES-8 on the 2 bus. They would have no clue and most likely wouldn't hear any difference at all.
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Post by jin167 on Oct 19, 2016 9:32:31 GMT -6
PS Audio does just that, regenerate power. It costs from $2,500 -$5,000. For wealthy audiophiles, it's a no brainer, although I don't know much about it. So, although expensive, but maybe it's not insane money if you're running a small or mid size studio. Take a quick look: www.psaudio.com/product-category/ac-regenerators/how is it a no brainer if you don't know much about how it works? It is not 'regenerating' anything. It's an ac to ac converter in essence. If this improves the performance of your equipment you are basically saying that whoever designed that particular piece of equipment is incapable of designing a proper PSU.
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Post by svart on Oct 19, 2016 9:37:00 GMT -6
smallbutfine said, "Since no severe changes in the laws of nature have happened, i really am not even the slightest bit curios about listening for a difference myself. Because i *know* that no golden ear can change the laws of electrodynamics that are relevant in this case". Perhaps there are some things relevant we're missing? Since you're not the slightest bit curious to try listening for yourself, thereby using the absolute most sophisticated listening devices we have, our ears, I respectfully think that's an unfair way of approaching this discussion. If you carefully audition some cables, a power cord or two, and notice an improvement or a difference, then perhaps you might be motivated to figure out why and we all gain. It stands to reason that those of us who've found that cabling can sound different, like me and Jim Williams and others are not in fact imagining it. I've been at this professionally for most of my life, and I know something when I hear it. It all may be the power sucks here in Manhattan, but I have friends in New Jersey, the Berkshires, Texas and L.A. who've found certain cables sounded better than others, so maybe not, or it's the US power sources.
*svart said this earlier, "By proposing to do nothing more than superficial listening tests". If that's not a bias, I've never seen one. Listening superficial? No way, no how. Is it superficial to compare how converters sound by listening? Superficial to compare a redline to a blueline skin on a mic? I don't think so, sorry. Here's one example, I didn't need a test lab, blind tests, specs and machines to corroborate my findings and prove to me that the Svartbox offered some improvement over the converters I had, I carefully compared, and listened, and I'm certain I was correct, the svartbox had some qualities that were more desirable. To me, listening trumps everything else. Yes, superficial. There are NO controls in a test of that nature, therefor it IS superficial. That's not meant to be derogatory, as you're taking it, but it's truthful. If there was a way to control every aspect of the listening environment and the biology of the listener to ensure that absolutely nothing external changed to affect the perception of the test between cables, then I would not be calling it such. However, we all know that even the smallest change in air pressure in the room can cause people to hear tiny differences, even between listening sessions on the same cable. You can equate my converter with it. I'll agree that listening tests ARE superficial. One person noted a difference they perceived a difference between my A/D converter and the RM A/D, so I did scientific tests to find out why. Turns out that the RM converter has a 1+dB tilt in it's spectrum due to the anti-aliasing filter knee being too close to the audio band. This gave the unit a bottom-heavy sound that people perceived as "thickness". Some people liked it better, most didn't. Either way, we know the mechanism for the phenomenon. It's not some mysterious and magical quality, it was just some tilt from using capacitors that weren't chosen for a wider bandwidth. That's how this cable test should be done. Scientifically.
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Post by donr on Oct 19, 2016 9:37:05 GMT -6
Imagine audio so good, so optimized with every overbuild, tweak, cable, damper, etc. that you just couldn't stand it.
I think Dave P's point about the value of increased resolution as a tool in his mixing gig is valid. But consuming audio, I don't know. Look at video, there's already a consumer resistance to scan rates that make movies look like soap operas. People don't want to see video so h-rez that it looks like you're in the room with the actors and the action.
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Post by svart on Oct 19, 2016 9:38:41 GMT -6
I built my room and I got fancy. I used 12-2 Romex. I always use that for power and 14-2 for lights. I'm just kind of a high roller I guess. I did the same. 12ga for power, 14ga for lights. I also soldered all the connections before wire-nutting rather than use pressure connections alone.
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Post by svart on Oct 19, 2016 9:45:53 GMT -6
Most houses have 14GA romex, so to satisfy you and the skeptics, order the cheapest piece of 14GA IEC cable you can find. That satisfies both parties and should solve the ferrari vs jetta issue as well. I have always considered #14 to be inadequate, especially the solid kind. I hate Romex. I remember seeing a paper/report somewhere that showed that twisting AC wiring similar to twisted pair networking or Telco cabling showed a measurable improvement in performance. There's no way that an adequate twist can be applied to Romex. What you have to understand is that all those ratings are based solely on what size wire can be used that is adequate to not dangerously overheat and catch your house on fire, not what won't interfere with the free passage of current. If you want a real comparison the cables must be the same guage. Otherwise you're comparing avocados to kumquats. That was this paper from Bill Whitlock and Jensen transformers. It has a lot of good info, but a few outdated points, and generally gets down to selling transformers as fixes for common ground issues, which can always be expected from manufacturers doing presentations: centralindianaaes.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdfHowever, there was a gem in the paper:
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 19, 2016 10:34:34 GMT -6
Where I differ from svart is that he sees testing audio as something that must be truly scientific and have controls. In general, I understand that and would agree. I think that's an absolute necessity for testing things for medical science, architectural design, nuclear science, etc. But to me, dealing with audio gear and testing of something like the sound of an audio cable has so many variables, I think it's incredibly difficult to do scientifically, and probably beyond the scope of 99% of the musicians and engineers I know. Not to say it isn't valuable, and enlightening sometimes, but I'll stick to my listening comparisons, and move on from there.
After all, it's what I hear that matters most to me. If I heard something change when trying a higher end power cord, but someone else doesn't hear anything different when changing to the same power cord, I have no idea if it's because there is no difference, if there's no difference at his place, but there is at mine, if he would notice it, even if it was present, or if his particular power supply is different, his room is different, his system different, and on and on.
So, I didn't need corroboration to know for sure that the svart box improved the sound I was getting, although I of course appreciate the diligence and care svart took to do it well. Same thing with cables, I don't need corroboration. I've seen at least a dozen people over the years go from complete denial that it's even possible for a power cord to improve the sound, to a holy $hit, I can't believe what I'm hearing position. I'm simply saying, just try it, don't waste any more time debating, trying it is quicker.
For me listening is definitive, for others, not so much, and I won't say they're wrong to feel that way, just that I don't.
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