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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 19, 2016 10:37:51 GMT -6
jin167, PS Audio does in fact make power generators, and they sell for $2,500-$5,000. Probably above the pay scale of most of us, but some studio owners might find value in it. My friend had one, and his system was amazing, but I didn't hear it without the generator, so I have no idea what it was like before. He's a smart guy, and I don't think he buys things he's not sure about. www.psaudio.com/product-category/ac-regenerators/
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2016 11:18:49 GMT -6
It is not, that i have not read the argumentation chains of marketenders of these so-called hi-end power cables. I did, and they are always lacking an explanation except "science is wrong" or "science is misunderstood", which is simply not the truth.
I thought a bit about a valid type of test for those of you, that actually have one of these much better power cables. If you own this, you seem convinced you hear the difference. A simple double blind test on neutral ground is not valid because you have to learn to hear the difference over time, right? So, why not check, how good you learned to hear the difference. Let two people make a double blind test for you - right where you have the equipment, that you are used to have this power cable on. Remember - this is where you think you hear the difference, because you learned to hear it. Don't be too surprised, if you can not, no matter, how long you learned to hear the differences. There is nothing wrong with your ears. It is just how things work. Did you guys know, that a placebo even works, if you KNOW, that it is a placebo? That is the truth. It is no problem of you beeing confused about if you hear a difference. It is a problem about how human perception and thinking works. It is a kybernetical problem, if you will. The guys selling these ideas are highly suggestive. Dunno, i might even get caught with such an idea - before i studied physics and electro-technics. I am absolutely not immune for suggestions that don't collide too hard with what i know. Just saying. Don't take my word. Test yourself. But test in a critical manner. Double blind, with a number of tries that says something. You can do it whenever you want, so that you feel comfortable with it and you can even train your listening for the difference right before.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 19, 2016 11:23:58 GMT -6
A few points:
1. The entire grounding system IS part of the audio path.
2. There are no absolutes because we are talking about systems that include a wide variety of power sources, power supplies and equipment grounding.
3. As I've pointed out before, it is an indictment of audio power supplies that wiring changes often reveal incompetent design.
4. Different wire is a Band-Aid that's cheaper than redesigning and then rebuilding all of our gear and building wiring.
My best friend from high school got his electrical engineering degree at MIT in 1968. He told me they were taught ZERO about audio, analog circuit or power supply design. Luckily his father had some EE textbooks from the 1940s because such information was no longer available even in libraries. At this point we have the blind leading the blind rather than the best and brightest designing this stuff as was the case prior to the late 1950s.
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Post by BradM on Oct 19, 2016 11:26:44 GMT -6
Where I differ from svart is that he sees testing audio as something that must be truly scientific and have controls. In general, I understand that and would agree. I think that's an absolute necessity for testing things for medical science, architectural design, nuclear science, etc. But to me, dealing with audio gear and testing of something like the sound of an audio cable has so many variables, I think it's incredibly difficult to do scientifically, and probably beyond the scope of 99% of the musicians and engineers I know. Not to say it isn't valuable, and enlightening sometimes, but I'll stick to my listening comparisons, and move on from there. Martin, I think Chris is simply approaching things from a designer's perspective, where it is important to understand the technical causes and effects of one's design choices. This is important when creating something you want to achieve a specific technical performance, and operate reliably and consistently. I can really appreciate this perspective being someone that also designs audio gear. I just acquired a Prism dScope III audio analyzer to help me in those pursuits. In an example, Chris cited exploring the differences between why the RMA and Svart converters sounded different with regards to some low end thickness. The key thing though is that people made an observation with their ears first before anyone chose to reach for the oscilloscope and analyzers. Make an observation. Then investigate the causes for that observation by exploring a hypothesis. That is the scientific method at its simplest. I suggest we do the same thing here. Let's let our ears tell us if there's anything worth measuring. Hopefully we can all be open-minded enough to at least listen. Any suggestions for a 14 AWG high end power cord we can test? Brad
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 19, 2016 11:33:08 GMT -6
Proper scientific testing for subtle audible differences in a complex system could easily cost hundreds of thousands of dollars! Nobody has any reason to pay for it.
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Post by BradM on Oct 19, 2016 11:41:14 GMT -6
Proper scientific testing for subtle audible differences in a complex system could easily cost hundreds of thousands of dollars! Nobody has any reason to pay for it. Kickstarter? Brad
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 19, 2016 14:21:43 GMT -6
Brad said, "Hopefully we can all be open-minded enough to at least listen". That's all I've been trying to promote, thanks. I completely get the importance of the need for sophisticated measuring devices when designing complicated audio gear, of course.
I've only asked people to do the same they did with things like the svartbox, or the EQP-WA, or a new clone, or mic design, or plugin, listen carefully, compare. Listen for short and long periods of time, etc. Then, perhaps the scientists may know where to look if there's consensus on certain audio qualities. Bob said, "Proper scientific testing for subtle audible differences in a complex system could easily cost hundreds of thousands of dollars! Nobody has any reason to pay for it".
Now that's what I'm talking about, only I don't quite have the expertise to explain myself as well as Bob can. My ears and a lifetime's experience are a lot cheaper.
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Post by svart on Oct 19, 2016 14:31:53 GMT -6
Proper scientific testing for subtle audible differences in a complex system could easily cost hundreds of thousands of dollars! Nobody has any reason to pay for it. I have a couple million dollars worth of equipment here in my lab at work.. Most of it's RF equipment, but a lot of it I can use for audio frequencies too. I'm open to doing whatever testing you guys want to try..
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Post by wiz on Oct 19, 2016 14:37:27 GMT -6
Imagine audio so good, so optimized with every overbuild, tweak, cable, damper, etc. that you just couldn't stand it.I think Dave P's point about the value of increased resolution as a tool in his mixing gig is valid. But consuming audio, I don't know. Look at video, there's already a consumer resistance to scan rates that make movies look like soap operas. People don't want to see video so h-rez that it looks like you're in the room with the actors and the action. SNAP!! thats what is going on... I just this week got a new TV.. I was wondering why everything looked the way it did... its a little disconcerting at times.... cheers Wiz
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Post by jimwilliams on Oct 19, 2016 14:42:50 GMT -6
I look at modern audio/rf test gear like modern microphones. Yes, you can make some mics directional, but you can't make them behave like the ear, 360 degree location capable. Sure, you might find stuff poking around with lab gear but how do you interpret it? Then what do you do with the results? Are you going to start making cables or make music?
Besides, you would be starting at the very beginning when there are people like Ray Kimber with all that lab stuff too and 40+ years of cable design experience to try and catch up to.
Not everything is DIY, not everything is worth DIY, sometimes it's better to use the talent sitting next to you.
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Post by donr on Oct 19, 2016 14:48:20 GMT -6
Imagine audio so good, so optimized with every overbuild, tweak, cable, damper, etc. that you just couldn't stand it.I think Dave P's point about the value of increased resolution as a tool in his mixing gig is valid. But consuming audio, I don't know. Look at video, there's already a consumer resistance to scan rates that make movies look like soap operas. People don't want to see video so h-rez that it looks like you're in the room with the actors and the action. SNAP!! thats what is going on... I just this week got a new TV.. I was wondering why everything looked the way it did... its a little disconcerting at times.... cheers Wiz You can adjust that. A couple articles on it. www.techwalla.com/articles/how-do-i-reduce-the-soap-opera-effect-on-my-led-tvwww.cnet.com/news/what-is-the-soap-opera-effect/On my Samsung TV's a parameter called Judder Reduction will mitigate that effect. Back off on the judder reduction until movies and 'filmed' stuff looks more like you expect it to.
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Post by wiz on Oct 19, 2016 14:50:17 GMT -6
Thanks donr , I will chase that up
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 19, 2016 14:53:55 GMT -6
Most of that $100000 would be labor!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 19, 2016 15:09:31 GMT -6
I look at modern audio/rf test gear like modern microphones. Yes, you can make some mics directional, but you can't make them behave like the ear, 360 degree location capable. Sure, you might find stuff poking around with lab gear but how do you interpret it? Then what do you do with the results? Are you going to start making cables or make music? Besides, you would be starting at the very beginning when there are people like Ray Kimber with all that lab stuff too and 40+ years of cable design experience to try and catch up to. Not everything is DIY, not everything is worth DIY, sometimes it's better to use the talent sitting next to you. Amen.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2016 17:05:37 GMT -6
Ok - I have just run a test ..... I changed my power cable to these new ones and ....
My kettle boiled 3 seconds quicker. er, I'll get my coat .....
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Post by drbill on Oct 19, 2016 17:12:29 GMT -6
The LAST thing I want in my CRM is science experiments. That's for design labs, and long term tests by those who geek out over testing. I use my well honed instinct, my ears, and I follow what they tell me. I do not second guess. I do not waffle back and forth. I do not hesitate to "ponder" the options. That's the Beginning and End of the story for music sessions here. For those that want to get bogged down in tests, it's all good. As long as you're not engineering my sessions. Here, we move fast, and we nurture creativity. Nothing kills the creative muse like a "test".
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Post by rowmat on Oct 19, 2016 17:21:38 GMT -6
The tests have been carried out and here are the results...
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Post by drbill on Oct 19, 2016 17:42:03 GMT -6
See....here's the thing. Hitler was very good at gassing people and tearing up countries, but his audio engineering staff can't even hear a simple cable swap. Lame.
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Post by ragan on Oct 19, 2016 18:45:48 GMT -6
The LAST thing I want in my CRM is science experiments. That's for design labs, and long term tests by those who geek out over testing. I use my well honed instinct, my ears, and I follow what they tell me. I do not second guess. I do not waffle back and forth. I do not hesitate to "ponder" the options. That's the Beginning and End of the story for music sessions here. For those that want to get bogged down in tests, it's all good. As long as you're not engineering my sessions. Here, we move fast, and we nurture creativity. Nothing kills the creative muse like a "test".I think that's perfectly valid, but it fundamentally changes the discussion. You're essentially saying "I make a quick call based on my gut feeling and I don't care if it turns out I was wrong or right, I trust my instinct and move on". Nothing wrong with that, but the whole discussion thus far had been between people who do care if there's a correct answer to the question. Also, um, I don't think anyone here has said or would say "you know when a great time for testing gear is? Right in the middle of a session!"
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Post by donr on Oct 19, 2016 20:28:27 GMT -6
The LAST thing I want in my CRM is science experiments. That's for design labs, and long term tests by those who geek out over testing. I use my well honed instinct, my ears, and I follow what they tell me. I do not second guess. I do not waffle back and forth. I do not hesitate to "ponder" the options. That's the Beginning and End of the story for music sessions here. For those that want to get bogged down in tests, it's all good. As long as you're not engineering my sessions. Here, we move fast, and we nurture creativity. Nothing kills the creative muse like a "test".I think that's perfectly valid, but it fundamentally changes the discussion. You're essentially saying "I make a quick call based on my gut feeling and I don't care if it turns out I was wrong or right, I trust my instinct and move on". Nothing wrong with that, but the whole discussion thus far had been between people who do care if there's a correct answer to the question. Also, um, I don't think anyone here has said or would say "you know when a great time for testing gear is? Right in the middle of a session!" Look at the digital transition. Not much argument it was a fundamental leap forward in linearity. But it turns out we don't really want to hear linearity in our recorded music. We want the non-linearity that made the previous analog medium sound euphonic. Has that non-linearity been adequately quantified as a standard to comparatively rate product on? I'd say at this point, we just know it when we hear it.
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Post by donr on Oct 19, 2016 21:32:59 GMT -6
The tests have been carried out and here are the results... Ha, I never tire of the subtitle goofs on "Downfall." May they persist in perpetuity. Great picture, and hat's off to Bruno Ganz, the best Hitler eva..
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Post by keymod on Oct 20, 2016 3:08:27 GMT -6
I'm going to be doing a build in about a year. What is the twisted 10ga cable you used in the walls? Anything special going on in your panel? I have not had the opportunity or funding to try twisted power cable myself. As I recall, I read about it in a white paper from Jensen Transformers, but don't remember which one or the absolute context. AFAIK, you'd have to apply the twist yourself, I don't know of any supplier for it as a commercial product. When doing building wiring (I've done a couple of nightclubs and small theaters) my preference is #12 or #10 stranded wire in hard conduit. What John Said. If I were building from scratch, it would be Electrical Metallic Tubing between each and every outlet box, starting at the source. Run minimum #12 THHN between outlet boxes, with an extra ground wire. I wouldn't think of twisting but, if you do, it will be harder to pull through the conduit so install a much larger conduit than usually needed. To twist, you can leave the rolls of THHN on a payout reel system, group and tape the ends together and attach to the chuck of a battery-powered drill. Using as slow a speed as reasonable, start the drill and pull the wire off of the reels to the lengths you need. Be careful not to damage the insulation on the wire.
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Post by jin167 on Oct 20, 2016 4:43:59 GMT -6
People on this forum are too nice. But in reality, if you were to speak to any 'professional' electrical engineer regarding this topic, 9 times out of 10 you will hear something similar to this.
I spoke to about 4 lecturers at the engineering department (all Ph.D. holders naturally) of my university this week regarding this topic just in case there was something I was not aware of but as expected they all had similar opinions. If you hear something different using these esoteric cables, or 'power regenerator' or whatever, go ahead and spend your money on them. It's your money after all.
But making claims like 'these cables WILL make a difference' without providing a reasonable scientific explanation or proof is a plain BS. Opinion should remain as an opinion until it can be proven.
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Post by jazznoise on Oct 20, 2016 7:42:12 GMT -6
I look at modern audio/rf test gear like modern microphones. Yes, you can make some mics directional, but you can't make them behave like the ear, 360 degree location capable. Sure, you might find stuff poking around with lab gear but how do you interpret it? Then what do you do with the results? Are you going to start making cables or make music? Besides, you would be starting at the very beginning when there are people like Ray Kimber with all that lab stuff too and 40+ years of cable design experience to try and catch up to. Not everything is DIY, not everything is worth DIY, sometimes it's better to use the talent sitting next to you. The irony here is that I see shopping for power cables and mic cables a total waste of time, and everyone should stop trying to save up for fancy converters and just go make music. I have gigs every week. I'm not worrying about what copper is in the walls when I do a location recording, or when I play in a pub, or when I do a mix. If you really want perfectly clean power get a bunch of car batteries or super caps and run your laptop and an interface off that. You'll have no electrical noise issues.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 20, 2016 8:15:09 GMT -6
jin167, next time,try asking four musicians who've actually tried switching out cables. When you said, "making claims like 'these cables WILL make a difference' without providing a reasonable scientific explanation or proof is a plain BS".
Well, I've been at this over 40 years, and disagree. Look at Jim William's posts and Bob Olson's posts. One said to do a proper scientific test would take massive amounts of money, the other said he and others carefully tested some cables and do in fact hear improvements. By default, your statement means they don't know what they're hearing or doing. Or maybe they've provided as reasonable a scientific explanation as time and money allow?
I'm curious, have you actually tried this?
jazz noise, I appreciate where you're coming from. It's good to be reminded of priorities. Having already spent a lot of time on this subject over twenty years ago, I probably shouldn't be spending this much time on it now. I don't need guys in lab coats to know what I'm hearing, no offense intended to all the cool engineering cats here.
Yesterday, my computer kept dropping the firewire signal from my Apollo. Today, it doesn't see it, and I don't think it's the cable. So, right now, I can't do any musical recording work at all. So, I'll have to bow out for a little while until I hopefully get that resolved.
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