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Post by swurveman on Aug 25, 2016 9:27:43 GMT -6
I was watching this excellent notch EQ video from Greg Wurth. As I watched it, I thought about how much I get squeezed on my budgets, how little I'm asking per hour anyway and whether I would spend the time- on my dime- on a song with a lead vocal and multiple chorus vocal and other tracks to use a parametric EQ on each track to notch out resonant frequencies. The answer for me is-no. I'd do it for my songs, but not for my clients who are squeezing me. I justify this by thinking about how many great songs were mixed without using a parametric EQ on many tracks. I also justify it because I'm working my ass off for little pay and still getting squeezed.
So, would you do it on your own dime? Given situations where you've already received a budget, would you do a before/after for the client and ask them if they thought it was worth it to spend the money, knowing how tedious this work is and knowing how little you're already getting? What if you thought the songs were shitty, but took the work anyway for the money? Is there a threshold where you'd do it on your own dime?
These are interesting questions that the digital age has brought. Yes, we have more tools, but budgets have not kept up. And this tool is a time intensive one.
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Post by svart on Aug 25, 2016 9:43:21 GMT -6
In the past, yes, I would go waaay above and beyond on mixes, even if the payment wasn't worth the time. You have to remember that your product is what sells your services to others.. And going that extra mile could mean the difference between getting a better level of client on the next session, or staying with clients that demand too much time for the money.
However, as I figure out better ways of doing things, and tricks that solve issues before I need to resort to things like notching EQ, I find I do less and less of these mix-time fixes, and my cost/time/profit type of scenario starts looking more in my favor. Better quality gear, and gear chosen more properly for the session also helps drastically.
Case in point.. I used to notch all kinds of stuff out of vocals. The changeover to a U47, with some slow/light compression at tracking, with the singer standing back a little more, with better room treatment has almost ended my need to do anything to the vocals during mix time.. Aside from the regular mix compression and a few EQ moves to get the vocals to sit right in the mix.
You might not be so lucky if you get tracks to mix from other sources though. Sometimes it's better to ask if things should be redone. I recently tracked a whole band, except for vocals. Those were done at another location. When I received the tracks, they were simply the worst recorded vocals I had heard. The producer pushed me hard to "just use them", but ultimately I contacted the band and they were happy to come retrack the vocals since they were also unhappy with them, but reluctant to tell the producer at the time. This turned out much better and now I have the band coming back to my studio, sans producer.
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Post by joseph on Aug 25, 2016 10:28:45 GMT -6
This stuff is demoralizing, no doubt. But then so are revisions, where you bump the backing vocals .5db.
I think dynamic eq is your friend in these situations, and can save time. This is a pretty egregious example, but the problem with notch eq on most vocals is that often those resonances, especially with vocals, build up momentarily, and with regular eq you change the whole balance for most, i.e. quieter content, not necessarily for the better. So then you keep fighting the cuts and balance in an endless cat chasing its tail situation.
Also true of acoustic guitar.
I tend to use TDR Nova and often DMG essence (cymbals, harsh snares) when I get problem tracks, and either Pro-G or Expurgate depending.
Agree with Svart on good mics and placement making all the difference, and this is why I like tracking things myself, and will gently recommend retrracking things where possible.
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Post by noah shain on Aug 25, 2016 11:21:31 GMT -6
My answer has to be yes. If I listen to my work and hear problems I can't fkn sleep. I go mental.
A lot of my work is low or NO budget (meaning spec/development projects). That's been a BIG part of my career thus far. I want everything I work on to be right at the edge of what I'm capable of.
When I look at my "business" as a business I get depressed. It is flat out a TERRIBLE business. I could, and have, made so much more money doing other things. I also do not work on an hourly and my studio is not available for rent to outside projects. It also cost me a damned fortune. 1000 square feet of studio in LA is heart stopping lay expensive BUT...
If I'm gonna be away from my family and sacrifice so much material comfort I want to be working at my bleeding edge. I want to compete with the big boys. I keep a list of mixers I've beaten in shootouts and a list of times I've lost shootouts and try to learn from both. I'm insanely insecure and competitive. I want to steal your work. I want to do that by being better than you and better than GW and better than Spike and Manny and Alge brothers. Flat out.
I'm in it to win it.
Sure, I get lazy and bitter and disillusioned and I've lost more shootouts than I've won but I'm still striving. I want more than anything to be proud of my work, to be honest in my appraisal of it and to be constantly growing.
I know how to do other jobs but I don't want to do them. I want a Grammy and I want platinum records and I want to help musicians and bands compete in their markets and I want the respect of my contemporaries and my mentors.
I'll do almost anything for that feeling of doing a GREAT mix. I wanna be world class and I'm willing to sacrifice my back and my time for it.
I might not notch every bg vocal but if I think it'll make the mix better I will.
Maybe I'm psycho...my wife FOR SURE thinks I am but I started my career late and I feel like I gotta work harder than most people to make up for lost hours.
I feel so blessed to be doing production for a living. If the music asks me to do something I'm gonna do it. At least for now. My ideas about life and work are always changing and what I was certain of a year ago can become totally false to me once I learn something new.
I hate being away from the studio anyway. I say notch your ass off!
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Post by svart on Aug 25, 2016 11:54:52 GMT -6
My answer has to be yes. If I listen to my work and hear problems I can't fkn sleep. I go mental. A lot of my work is low or NO budget (meaning spec/development projects). That's been a BIG part of my career thus far. I want everything I work on to be right at the edge of what I'm capable of. When I look at my "business" as a business I get depressed. It is flat out a TERRIBLE business. I could, and have, made so much more money doing other things. I also do not work on an hourly and my studio is not available for rent to outside projects. It also cost me a damned fortune. 1000 square feet of studio in LA is heart stopping lay expensive BUT... If I'm gonna be away from my family and sacrifice so much material comfort I want to be working at my bleeding edge. I want to compete with the big boys. I keep a list of mixers I've beaten in shootouts and a list of times I've lost shootouts and try to learn from both. I'm insanely insecure and competitive. I want to steal your work. I want to do that by being better than you and better than GW and better than Spike and Manny and Alge brothers. Flat out. I'm in it to win it. Sure, I get lazy and bitter and disillusioned and I've lost more shootouts than I've won but I'm still striving. I want more than anything to be proud of my work, to be honest in my appraisal of it and to be constantly growing. I know how to do other jobs but I don't want to do them. I want a Grammy and I want platinum records and I want to help musicians and bands compete in their markets and I want the respect of my contemporaries and my mentors. I'll do almost anything for that feeling of doing a GREAT mix. I wanna be world class and I'm willing to sacrifice my back and my time for it. I might not notch every bg vocal but if I think it'll make the mix better I will. Maybe I'm psycho...my wife FOR SURE thinks I am but I started my career late and I feel like I gotta work harder than most people to make up for lost hours. I feel so blessed to be doing production for a living. If the music asks me to do something I'm gonna do it. At least for now. My ideas about life and work are always changing and what I was certain of a year ago can become totally false to me once I learn something new. I hate being away from the studio anyway. I say notch your ass off! I've not gone as far as keeping a list, but I've always said that my goal is to take business from bigger fish around here. In a few cases I have, and I'm currently working on a few mixes that have the potential to win a mix job from a *big name* bloke who people have heard his mixes on the radio all over the world. Some might call it cocky, but it's the truth of business. To win business, you have to produce better results, which means competition is a natural part of the whole thing, and as anyone who has played sports knows, you have to have the winning mindset in order to play to your full potential. |
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Post by drbill on Aug 25, 2016 16:40:43 GMT -6
When I mix for others (which is getting rarer and rarer, but I did a huge project for Disney recently) I mix on an hourly, so I'll squeeze as long as the client wants.
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Post by drbill on Aug 25, 2016 16:45:07 GMT -6
My answer has to be yes. If I listen to my work and hear problems I can't fkn sleep. I go mental. A lot of my work is low or NO budget (meaning spec/development projects). That's been a BIG part of my career thus far. I want everything I work on to be right at the edge of what I'm capable of. When I look at my "business" as a business I get depressed. It is flat out a TERRIBLE business. I could, and have, made so much more money doing other things. I also do not work on an hourly and my studio is not available for rent to outside projects. It also cost me a damned fortune. 1000 square feet of studio in LA is heart stopping lay expensive BUT... If I'm gonna be away from my family and sacrifice so much material comfort I want to be working at my bleeding edge. I want to compete with the big boys. I keep a list of mixers I've beaten in shootouts and a list of times I've lost shootouts and try to learn from both. I'm insanely insecure and competitive. I want to steal your work. I want to do that by being better than you and better than GW and better than Spike and Manny and Alge brothers. Flat out. I'm in it to win it. Sure, I get lazy and bitter and disillusioned and I've lost more shootouts than I've won but I'm still striving. I want more than anything to be proud of my work, to be honest in my appraisal of it and to be constantly growing. I know how to do other jobs but I don't want to do them. I want a Grammy and I want platinum records and I want to help musicians and bands compete in their markets and I want the respect of my contemporaries and my mentors. I'll do almost anything for that feeling of doing a GREAT mix. I wanna be world class and I'm willing to sacrifice my back and my time for it. I might not notch every bg vocal but if I think it'll make the mix better I will. Maybe I'm psycho...my wife FOR SURE thinks I am but I started my career late and I feel like I gotta work harder than most people to make up for lost hours. I feel so blessed to be doing production for a living. If the music asks me to do something I'm gonna do it. At least for now. My ideas about life and work are always changing and what I was certain of a year ago can become totally false to me once I learn something new. I hate being away from the studio anyway. I say notch your ass off! That's it right there folks. If you want to know how to make it in the music biz, take a big notepad, write that all down, memorize it and then try to outdo noah. LOL just kidding Noah, but you get the idea. That's what it takes to make it. After 30+ years I'm right there with ya Noah. Although I'm TRYING to back off a little..... heh heh I'm very lucky (or I earned it - you choose) that my clients allow me to work on an hourly not a $$$ per mix flat/sliding rate. I demand it. They agree. The only other option is to overcharge what they want to pay. |
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Post by ChaseUTB on Aug 26, 2016 10:15:43 GMT -6
Mixes take me too long and I always undercharge for the actual work I complete. If I quoted what was fair I wouldn't have any business. If I get $150 for a mix, I more than likely did $250-300 worth of work/ time. From painstaking edits, clean up, labeling, trash audio removal ( thank you strip silence ) retuning already improperly tuned vocals where the auto tune is printed into the file ( literally, would not send me a non auto tuned vox file so I could do it proper) Also, because I always put my best foot forward revisions are minimal but again, I am defintely gettin the short end of the stick payment vs workload wise. And I love what I do so that helps a lot. I use a lot of clip gain, cut out a lot of breaths and lip smacking and that alone can be tedious on 25 vox tracks. As long as I am aware of any issue in the mix, i do whatever I can to make it better.
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Post by jazznoise on Aug 26, 2016 16:53:10 GMT -6
I don't get mix gigs I didn't record, generally. It's very rare we record something and aren't happy with what we commit to. I probably still put in too much time, but I imagine that's still less than a lot of the people here do. I do it knowing I#m just putting the money straight back in as investment, so I kind of have a mentality that what they before for they'll get back in the next session anyway. Finally doing proper traps and some gobos, for instance.
Good tip on TDR Nova. Nothing deals with lumpy bass response quite like it. Also great on very pushed vocals to deal with that midrange buildup you can get.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 27, 2016 9:12:30 GMT -6
Straight hourly here, not giving much away. Deals and discounts seem to engender less respect and have more follow up requests/complaints. I've seen no evidence a lower rate would get any more work through the door. I see clients who 1) already know they are using me or 2) may be comparison shopping even to the point of doing demos 2-3 different places, and it's rare I lose those shoot outs.
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Post by viciousbliss on Aug 29, 2016 8:45:09 GMT -6
Given how much smacking, breathing, and hissing I hear in songs by people like Justin Bieber and Ariana Grande, we could all probably get away with not editing that stuff out.
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Post by Guitar on Sept 1, 2016 11:54:03 GMT -6
Great thread.
I think a sports-like mentality is absolutely necessary to get anything of value done. You just know there are other people out there working their asses off, so you'd better take it seriously, if you want to be taken seriously.
Speaking for myself personally, if I am not growing, learning and getting better, I tend to start to question why I'm even doing it at all. I can hardly think of anything more important to my sense of self worth. The idea of making too many compromises and shortcuts in this musical quest seems to be almost suicidal. And the satisfaction of a job well done only lasts so long before it's time for something new. Ideally something even better.
Recording can sometimes be more about the experience gained than the money. So if you view these new techniques as new tools in your quiver, or new landmarks, that might be enough to make it mentally worthwhile. Even if the paycheck is just sort of a gratuity.
When I hand a mix off to someone, I want them to say "Wow, that's amazing!" without any kind of reservations. Ideally I also want to push hard enough that I even impress myself. In this sea of noise that we live in, that is really the only scenario where some little song or album even has a chance to take off.
My hats off to the cats doing this to put food on the table, that takes some kind of balls that's on another level.
Now I'm going to go listen to some of Noah's recordings on YouTube. :-D
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Post by drbill on Sept 1, 2016 12:20:57 GMT -6
Now more than ever - the arranging aspect of mixing is what needs the most attention. A great arrangement is going to trump any notch filtering or mixing tricks. Because of unlimited track counts, arrangement seems to go out the window in favor of ADDING inordinate amounts of garbage in an effort to make the tunes better. IMO, subtractive (and sometimes additive) arranging is what can really make a tune shine. Much moreso than EQ, compression, etc..
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Post by indiehouse on Sept 1, 2016 12:39:06 GMT -6
Now more than ever - the arranging aspect of mixing is what needs the most attention. A great arrangement is going to trump any notch filtering or mixing tricks. Because of unlimited track counts, arrangement seems to go out the window in favor of ADDING inordinate amounts of garbage in an effort to make the tunes better. IMO, subtractive (and sometimes additive) arranging is what can really make a tune shine. Much moreso than EQ, compression, etc.. Man, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm working on an album right now where this is the truth. The band has such a bloated sense of songmanship. Longwinded, boring intros that just need cut. I've tried and tried, but keep getting rejected. I gave up so I'm just getting this thing out the door so I can move on. |
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Post by EmRR on Sept 2, 2016 8:43:12 GMT -6
Now more than ever - the arranging aspect of mixing is what needs the most attention. Amen. I'm on a project now for a solo artist that doesn't have a lot of arranging ideas or full band experience, but a number of talented friends coming in for experimental overdubs. It's easy to record a lot of great sounding parts, tough to shake them out into something that lifts the song, very easy to make a slurry of obscuring junk around the original intent. |
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Post by drbill on Sept 2, 2016 9:56:18 GMT -6
Friends
Experimental
Overdubs
Sounds dangerous, :-)
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Post by swurveman on Sept 2, 2016 10:43:38 GMT -6
Now more than ever - the arranging aspect of mixing is what needs the most attention. Amen. I'm on a project now for a solo artist that doesn't have a lot of arranging ideas or full band experience, but a number of talented friends coming in for experimental overdubs. It's easy to record a lot of great sounding parts, tough to shake them out into something that lifts the song, very easy to make a slurry of obscuring junk around the original intent. There's a learning curve for bands as well. It's kind of strange because the "magic in the studio" concept was possible in the past with great bands and big budgets. With young bands today with no budget, it makes no sense at all. When they keep paying for and then trashing these experiments, they'll wise up. |
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Post by svart on Sept 2, 2016 12:26:28 GMT -6
Amen. I'm on a project now for a solo artist that doesn't have a lot of arranging ideas or full band experience, but a number of talented friends coming in for experimental overdubs. It's easy to record a lot of great sounding parts, tough to shake them out into something that lifts the song, very easy to make a slurry of obscuring junk around the original intent. There's a learning curve for bands as well. It's kind of strange because the "magic in the studio" concept was possible in the past with great bands and big budgets. With young bands today with no budget, it makes no sense at all. When they keep paying for and then trashing these experiments, they'll wise up. I'm not so sure about that. With the current climate of kids growing up without discipline and never having to feel failure in this era of "no spank, everyone wins an award".. The kids coming through the studio just believe that they'll do something great. When they can't get it, it's not because of their lack of practice, or lack of talent, it's because "the vibe" in the studio isn't right, or some other statement brushing off their involvement in the failure and placing the blame on the location, or the time, or setting, etc. Kids aren't accustomed to failure anymore. They've never been allowed to fail, so when they come to the studio, it can't possibly be their fault, it must be something else.. |
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Post by swurveman on Sept 2, 2016 14:08:56 GMT -6
There's a learning curve for bands as well. It's kind of strange because the "magic in the studio" concept was possible in the past with great bands and big budgets. With young bands today with no budget, it makes no sense at all. When they keep paying for and then trashing these experiments, they'll wise up. I'm not so sure about that. With the current climate of kids growing up without discipline and never having to feel failure in this era of "no spank, everyone wins an award".. The kids coming through the studio just believe that they'll do something great. When they can't get it, it's not because of their lack of practice, or lack of talent, it's because "the vibe" in the studio isn't right, or some other statement brushing off their involvement in the failure and placing the blame on the location, or the time, or setting, etc. Kids aren't accustomed to failure anymore. They've never been allowed to fail, so when they come to the studio, it can't possibly be their fault, it must be something else.. True, kids aren't accustomed to failure or having to face up to consequences as they should. But that's the great thing about the real world where everybody doesn't get a prize. If they go to enough studios and keep sucking, they'll have to confront failure and adapt. Or, if they don't they'll simply fail. They can delude themselves that it isn't because of their lack of talent or work effort, but they'll fail just the same. I suppose their rationalization of why they did not succeed is their booby prize, but at age 30 it's not the same as a participation trophy, or mommy and daddy telling them how great they are. |
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Post by svart on Sept 2, 2016 15:59:18 GMT -6
I'm not so sure about that. With the current climate of kids growing up without discipline and never having to feel failure in this era of "no spank, everyone wins an award".. The kids coming through the studio just believe that they'll do something great. When they can't get it, it's not because of their lack of practice, or lack of talent, it's because "the vibe" in the studio isn't right, or some other statement brushing off their involvement in the failure and placing the blame on the location, or the time, or setting, etc. Kids aren't accustomed to failure anymore. They've never been allowed to fail, so when they come to the studio, it can't possibly be their fault, it must be something else.. True, kids aren't accustomed to failure or having to face up to consequences as they should. But that's the great thing about the real world where everybody doesn't get a prize. If they go to enough studios and keep sucking, they'll have to confront failure and adapt. Or, if they don't they'll simply fail. They can delude themselves that it isn't because of their lack of talent or work effort, but they'll fail just the same. I suppose their rationalization of why they did not succeed is their booby prize, but at age 30 it's not the same as a participation trophy, or mommy and daddy telling them how great they are. Or, the record amounts of anti-depressant drugs being prescribed to folks these days.. I work with a lot of younger (early 20's) kids, and the collective amount of prescribed drugs for anxiety, depression, etc is scary. Maybe it's just the "artist" type of person who typically lets emotions run wild, but it just seems that the new generation is perfectly OK with medicating away frustration and fear, rather than facing it. |
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Post by swurveman on Sept 2, 2016 17:09:34 GMT -6
True, kids aren't accustomed to failure or having to face up to consequences as they should. But that's the great thing about the real world where everybody doesn't get a prize. If they go to enough studios and keep sucking, they'll have to confront failure and adapt. Or, if they don't they'll simply fail. They can delude themselves that it isn't because of their lack of talent or work effort, but they'll fail just the same. I suppose their rationalization of why they did not succeed is their booby prize, but at age 30 it's not the same as a participation trophy, or mommy and daddy telling them how great they are. Or, the record amounts of anti-depressant drugs being prescribed to folks these days.. I work with a lot of younger (early 20's) kids, and the collective amount of prescribed drugs for anxiety, depression, etc is scary. Maybe it's just the "artist" type of person who typically lets emotions run wild, but it just seems that the new generation is perfectly OK with medicating away frustration and fear, rather than facing it. I agree. I think it's twofold: The kids were not conditioned that pain is a normal part of life, and even more so if you're really pushing your self to be better. In my generation, pain was the price you paid for striving. Secondly, after being conditioned that pain wasn't normal, physicians and pharmaceutical companies were there with a pill. Caveat: I realize there is real mental illness that needs to be treated. However, I think some kids who are simply experiencing painful life challenges that can be overcome with perspective and time are -instead- medicated. As a side note, I have a physician friend who told me the entire focus for the first part of her career was to prevent pain. This led to the opioid crises. They've turned around to where they use opioids as a last resort, but the damage was done. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 2, 2016 20:25:08 GMT -6
That video was inspiring. Mainly because I've done what Greg Wurth does here, just not as diligently or carefully. I plan to try to go a little further with this next time. Perhaps some of what's bugged me about my vocals is needed to clean up some resonances. I'll find out soon enough I guess.
Even though I mainly record myself, the time vs. income factor is still important. Where should I draw the line on a song demo? It can get complicated. I'll probably compromise, and take just a little more time with the lead vocal, and if any particular instrument is bugging me, I'll take a closer look and try some notch filtering.
As for guys who have their own recording studio and sell time, doing your absolute best, no matter what, or making some reasonable compromises are both the right thing to do. What I think will get you noticed is one of two things, either you're lucky enough to get involved with a true talent who get some traction, and you get pulled along for the ride and gain reputation, or you're a frickin' mixing genius.
I once heard a mix of Sylvia Massey's, and compared it to the demo. The demo would have satisfied most anyone, her mix was complete magic though, and the song had a entirely different effect, the kind hit records are made of.
Same thing, different engineers. I have two mixes of a Psychedelic Furs song, Until She Comes, same exact tracks. One mix was by Steven Street, one by Hugh Padgham. The Street mix was unbalanced, drums too forward, things didn't gel in general. The Padgham mix, was distinctly magical, mysterious, it put you right in the room with the singer, right inside his head, waiting, anticipating, frustrated, excited. The subtle differences added up, a little reverb on a bagpipe sound, etc. , etc.
If there's anyone here with that kind of talent, it will get noticed.
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Post by reddirt on Sept 3, 2016 2:50:53 GMT -6
That video's a great learning tool right there yet is not a complete answer; an earlier post made a comment about problems often being dynamic so it can be hard to throw a blanket eq of this nature over a whole track ( i'm keen to try out McDsp's dynamic eq when I upgrade from Snow leopard in the next eon) .
To illuminate;- a particular problem I'm facing at the moment is a booming bass around low G so each time G is played i'm automating a deep notch and a HPF so as to keep it under control and stop it unnecessarily triggering radio compression when it gets airplay. That's time consuming but will make a decent difference.
So yes I do go to that extreme if the project resonates with me enough i.e. my work is making something good into very good or to view it negatively - if i didn't do it, something potentially very good is compromised by my inaction and I'm certainly not happy with myself. ( I'm way past working on crap though even if good money's involved).
I'm currently producing a track that will net me $300 but which should be $3000 - am I mad? I don't think so, the guy has no money but has talent and a work ethic so if I/we do a great job it may lead to bigger things and if it doesn't , I'll sleep well knowing i've done the best i can and something worthwhile has been added to the world.
Having said all this, I no longer have a wife and kids to support from my production activity; that would have changed the dynamic to a fair degree; also, any more tracks we do together will be charged at a reasonable rate or if this original track causes funding to come our way for a full album then I'll charge an excellent rate!
I reckon we do it 'cause we love sound and we love the challenge although here's another take - When I was Training officer at the local Aboriginal media organisation's studio, the then Prime Minister came through (Wiz will know of him - Bob Hawke) and he asked my trainee what he thought about working in the studio; the trainee answered, "Beats diggin' holes Bob".
Cheers, Ross
Reddirt Recordings
Alice Springs, Australia
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 3, 2016 8:33:35 GMT -6
"the trainee answered, "Beats diggin' holes Bob".
Love that!
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Post by rocinante on Sept 3, 2016 10:52:23 GMT -6
Ah The shoulder pad generation. The kids who always rode a bike with a helmet. They don't know what it feels like to fall off that bike and smack your f****** face in the cement. They don't know what it feels like for that 30 year old dude to kick the shit out of the f****** 17 year old kid because he got a little mouthy. Where I work and live unfortunately; they bring guns to a fist fight. Cause they dont know the value of forever. Forever dead.
I'm not a fan of laptop music and there's soo much of it. These days the money for me is voice overs and video editing. The fun money is actual bands that play instruments but I expect to make very little. There's soo many great bands still though. They are just not youtube hits. They require leaving the computer to see something amazing. I don't record enough of them. I also work too much at my other job. Im also becoming jaded. For small studio owners thats bad. I should practice what I preach. But unlike that 17 yr old kid with a gun who was jaded at 15, I haven't earned the right. As I sit in the middle of +20k (rough guess) of audio and video equipment.
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