|
Post by rowmat on Sept 3, 2016 12:03:43 GMT -6
Once upon a time there was something called budgets and often days were spent just selecting and tuning the drums before a note was recorded. (Let's call this period post 1970 up until around 2000 when recording studios and budgets really began to expand and free music hadn't yet become the norm) Today there are almost no budgets to speak of, hence no time to spend on esoteric adventures like trying a dozen different mics and snare drums etc. Costs have gone up and income has gone down... a lot. 25 plus years ago ten days in a decent studio cost a years wages, today it costs maybe a months wages. Added to that there are now also far more 'studios' per muscian all competing for an ever decreasing piece of the money pie. Real estate prices and free music have killed most of the big studios of old. The small studio owners/engineers now try and compete with each other often by going the extra (unpaid) mile trying to make their work sound like it had a 1980's Springteen budget and a year of studio time when in fact all you officially had was five days at $50 per hour with a request by the crowd funded client to pay the last $500 off in instalments after session... when they can find the cash. I would guess relatively few studios operators these days are actually running truly viable businesses (without some kind of alternative income source) and most are looking for a big break that will somehow separate them from the rest and suddenly result the next big artists flocking to their door offering proper $$$ to record at the next generation 'Muscle Shoals'. Ah well, one can dream!
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Sept 3, 2016 14:09:33 GMT -6
No budgets? You've got the wrong clients then. There are budgets, studios, clients and time to mix right. Just my perspective, and I'm not even in LA anymore.... I've even got clients from LA following me out.....
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Sept 3, 2016 14:36:50 GMT -6
No budgets? You've got the wrong clients then. There are budgets, studios, clients and time to mix right. Just my perspective, and I'm not even in LA anymore.... I've even got clients from LA following me out..... I'm talking bands, singer songwriters etc. as opposed to corporate work ie. advertising etc. Very few artists in Australia get any kind of major label funding except those that appear on shows like 'The Voice' etc. and have received major TV coverage before they even make an album. They're about the only few who see any corporate $$$ for what it's worth. Most artists here (even ones who have been in the business for years and have charted) are either self funded or crowd funded. Most record labels now expect to be presented with a finished product which they may, or may not, provide assistance to then market and distribute. And just maybe some $$ for a video clip. Few record company's here fund albums anymore, they mostly just market them. Recently successful Australian acts like Goyte, Courtney Barnett, Tame Impala, King Gizzard etc are mostly DIY'er's who have recorded and done most of their own promotional work themselves with the help of friends etc. Often they record in their own studios, start their own labels and reinvest income back into their own enterprise. We get work but there's two of us to 'feed' and I can tell you that $500 AUD per day (10 hours) is about the limit of what you can charge without clients objecting. And this is for the studio, an engineer and producer Anymore than that and you're competing directly with the larger inner city studios with the big rooms etc. who are around $600 to $800 per day. We don't have big rooms. However their rates have halved in the past 10 years while inner city real estate prices have quadrupled. And here's the result as another iconic Australian studio is soon to close its doors... www.singsing.com.auThe cost of living here in Melbourne now ranks amongst the highest in the world. House prices within a 10 kilometre radius of the city are now routinely in the $Million plus dollar range. These are basic average homes. Houses an hour from the city are around $500,000. Rental prices are similarly high. Most working Melbourne musicians rent in suburbs like Brunswick, Northcote, Fiztroy, St Kilda etc. where a run down house the size of a shoebox will cost $1-$2 million dollars and rents are $800 to $1000 per week. Add to that very little secure decently paid full time work. For most musicians it's part time and casual work waiting in cafe's. Money is tight for everyone.
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Sept 3, 2016 15:16:55 GMT -6
You can join the well documented race to the bottom, or decide to pursue clients who can afford quality work. It's everyone's personal choice. I didn't say it was easy, just an option. At least it is for me. Of course, I'm only speaking of my experience here in the US, but (IMO) the "model" can be translated to different cultures, countries, etc..
I don't do corporate work or advertising - only music. I fund many of my own projects with monies made from previous personal projects. When paid by others, I only work with clients who can afford me and who are willing to make the trek to see me, hang out and PAY my price - which is higher than ever these days because I'd rather speculate on my own projects which and and do pay more royalties than I can make doing $50 an hour sessions. I worked my @$$ off for a couple decades to get here though. But once I quit thinking in traditional forms (engineer for others, produce some lame rich person's CD, ghost write for others, etc.) I began making real progress.
I did have ONE bit of luck though....I bought real estate in an area that 25 years later was THE place to be selling 3 years ago. Of course, that was offset my miserable forays into the NASDAQ, a quite amazing ponzi scheme, and your average bad financial decisions - all of which cost me dearly.
You're got to be an outside the box thinker though. Chasing traditional paradigms will net you exactly what you are experiencing.
Anyone can sing the blues. My experience from watching many astute musicians/businessmen is that smart businessmen make a way. There is plenty of success if you look behind the curtain.....
PS - your real estate prices (especially when converting AU to USD) seem pretty on par with LA.
|
|
|
Post by gregwurth on Feb 8, 2017 21:48:53 GMT -6
That video's a great learning tool right there yet is not a complete answer; an earlier post made a comment about problems often being dynamic so it can be hard to throw a blanket eq of this nature over a whole track ( i'm keen to try out McDsp's dynamic eq when I upgrade from Snow leopard in the next eon) . To illuminate;- a particular problem I'm facing at the moment is a booming bass around low G so each time G is played i'm automating a deep notch and a HPF so as to keep it under control and stop it unnecessarily triggering radio compression when it gets airplay. That's time consuming but will make a decent difference. So yes I do go to that extreme if the project resonates with me enough i.e. my work is making something good into very good or to view it negatively - if i didn't do it, something potentially very good is compromised by my inaction and I'm certainly not happy with myself. ( I'm way past working on crap though even if good money's involved). I'm currently producing a track that will net me $300 but which should be $3000 - am I mad? I don't think so, the guy has no money but has talent and a work ethic so if I/we do a great job it may lead to bigger things and if it doesn't , I'll sleep well knowing i've done the best i can and something worthwhile has been added to the world. Having said all this, I no longer have a wife and kids to support from my production activity; that would have changed the dynamic to a fair degree; also, any more tracks we do together will be charged at a reasonable rate or if this original track causes funding to come our way for a full album then I'll charge an excellent rate! I reckon we do it 'cause we love sound and we love the challenge although here's another take - When I was Training officer at the local Aboriginal media organisation's studio, the then Prime Minister came through (Wiz will know of him - Bob Hawke) and he asked my trainee what he thought about working in the studio; the trainee answered, "Beats diggin' holes Bob". Cheers, Ross Reddirt Recordings Alice Springs, Australia I agree with you. Another plugin EQ to try that works with the notes is Sound Radix Surfer EQ
|
|
|
Post by gregwurth on Feb 8, 2017 21:57:01 GMT -6
That video was inspiring. Mainly because I've done what Greg Wurth does here, just not as diligently or carefully. I plan to try to go a little further with this next time. Perhaps some of what's bugged me about my vocals is needed to clean up some resonances. I'll find out soon enough I guess. Even though I mainly record myself, the time vs. income factor is still important. Where should I draw the line on a song demo? It can get complicated. I'll probably compromise, and take just a little more time with the lead vocal, and if any particular instrument is bugging me, I'll take a closer look and try some notch filtering. As for guys who have their own recording studio and sell time, doing your absolute best, no matter what, or making some reasonable compromises are both the right thing to do. What I think will get you noticed is one of two things, either you're lucky enough to get involved with a true talent who get some traction, and you get pulled along for the ride and gain reputation, or you're a frickin' mixing genius. I once heard a mix of Sylvia Massey's, and compared it to the demo. The demo would have satisfied most anyone, her mix was complete magic though, and the song had a entirely different effect, the kind hit records are made of. Same thing, different engineers. I have two mixes of a Psychedelic Furs song, Until She Comes, same exact tracks. One mix was by Steven Street, one by Hugh Padgham. The Street mix was unbalanced, drums too forward, things didn't gel in general. The Padgham mix, was distinctly magical, mysterious, it put you right in the room with the singer, right inside his head, waiting, anticipating, frustrated, excited. The subtle differences added up, a little reverb on a bagpipe sound, etc. , etc. If there's anyone here with that kind of talent, it will get noticed. This EQ technique is probably the most dreadful thing to have to do when all you want is to simply "mix". There is absolutely nothing fun or inspiring about it. But unfortunately there are lazy (or inexperienced) recording engineers that send you their mess to fix in the mix. I personally prefer to mix projects that I've recorded b/c I commit most of my sounds on the way in, but again the budgets are not there so this is a luxury that isn't often possible. I don't see this as going above and beyond, it's actually fixing the bullshit so that you can get on with your work. But anyhow I just made this video to share some tips on this sort of thing. Everybody has their or approach and yes it's a major pain in the ass.
|
|
|
Post by donr on Feb 10, 2017 19:39:31 GMT -6
Ah The shoulder pad generation. The kids who always rode a bike with a helmet. They don't know what it feels like to fall off that bike and smack your f****** face in the cement. They don't know what it feels like for that 30 year old dude to kick the shit out of the f****** 17 year old kid because he got a little mouthy. Where I work and live unfortunately; they bring guns to a fist fight. Cause they dont know the value of forever. Forever dead. I'm not a fan of laptop music and there's soo much of it. These days the money for me is voice overs and video editing. The fun money is actual bands that play instruments but I expect to make very little. There's soo many great bands still though. They are just not youtube hits. They require leaving the computer to see something amazing. I don't record enough of them. I also work too much at my other job. Im also becoming jaded. For small studio owners thats bad. I should practice what I preach. But unlike that 17 yr old kid with a gun who was jaded at 15, I haven't earned the right. As I sit in the middle of +20k (rough guess) of audio and video equipment. >laptop music Yeah. Nice pejorative, and pretty accurate.
|
|
|
Post by aamicrophones on Feb 10, 2017 20:25:53 GMT -6
WOW!!! That seems like a lot of work!!! I suppose if you were delivered a track like to mix then you would have to address the resonances causing the "edgyness". A U87 can create that effect when set to Cardiod in a smaller room if the room is not properly treated.
There is only 10db of rejection at the rear of a U87 in Cardiod at 400hz and 800hz compare to 20db from 200hz to 10khz.
I think the performance is quite acceptable but there a bit too much harmonic distortion at those problem frequencies caused by something in the audio chain that's running out of headroom.
For example if you get 3db more output resonance from the microphone at 400hz and 800hz then the next component in the audio chain will have 3db less headroom at those frequencies.
I am always monitoring back through the Sony MXP3036 which has 4 band sweepable EQ with variable "Q". These EQ's are great in the Sony for notching but boosting not so much. The Sony console has 28dbu of headroom with fully balanced outputs.
I did use a plug in once that could do that kind of notching but it would also compress those frequencies as well. It was a multi-band compressor and a side-chained sweepable EQ with variable "Q". We used it once to remix a live show that was recorded badly.
If you were hired to mix that vocal into a track then you do what is necessary. However, if its just a song demo then the vocal quality, to paraphrase Bill Porter will make no difference to whether the song is a hit or not...unless the sound is so annoying that you need to turn it off.
However, the vocal performance sounds fine other than the increased harmonic distortion at the resonant frequencies. This underlines one of the reasons I alway like to have a compressor in the chain on the way to the recorder whether digital or analogue.
I worked with Bill Porter one weekend and he wouldn't record a vocal until we rented an LA4 compressor even though there were 5-1176 compressors in the studio.
I am sure he would have preferred an LA3 but he wasn't hitting the LA4 very hard and he wanted the slow optical attack and release that changes with dynamics and the 2:1 compression ratio while the 1176 has a minimum ratio of 4:1.
If you are mixing something that is going to "be pressed" then you do what it takes to get the best vocal sound possible. The engineer was always the last guy to go home from the studio after the session had "ended" way back in the 70's and 80's.
I can remember on more than one occasion I was still there mixing when the receptionist showed up in the morning and I knew then there was one more hour before another engineer arrived for the next day's session.
20K is nothing. The Trident Series 80b was $65K in 1979, the Studer 24 Track was $55K used and the plate reverb $15K plus we had about $10k in 2 track machines. Now, I did buy a U47 in perfect working order for $450. Unless you has a 7' grand piano you were not classed as a "real" studio.
The Yamaha C7 was $15K in 1979. I had to buy 4-U87 microphones in 1985 to fulfill a contract recording voice actors for an animation series. The street price of a U87 in 1985 was $1800.
I never made any money in the studio as you we always buying more gear and paid myself a modest salary. I got out just before the digital "revolution". I was able to support my family by providing tech services to theatres and other studios on the side.
When I left Ocean in 1991 we had 3-24 Track machines, 2-Trident consoles, a 24 channel Neve, C7 grand, upright grand, B3, Wurlitzer piano, Rhodes Piano and a rack full of toys plus video post production gear.
I provided Tech services for another 10 years before I started building tube microphone for folks. Its still a real treat when I go out and record an amazing live performance. Its incredible when get back to the studio and just push up the faders and everything is right there no EQ needed just a little balancing.
Actually, I did notch out a little cymbal and snare leakage from the CM48T on the upright bass.
Cheers, Dave aamicrophones.com
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2017 20:39:52 GMT -6
^^^^ I love these old "war" stories above everything on this forum. I bet the rose tints are on a bit, but even so they must have been great days....
|
|
|
Post by rocinante on Feb 12, 2017 12:04:46 GMT -6
^^^^ I love these old "war" stories above everything on this forum. I bet the rose tints are on a bit, but even so they must have been great days.... They were! And the ones before me were even better! Dude, I was the Pro Tools specialist at the pro studio I interned then worked at. Think about that and how absurd it sounds nowadays. But seriously when that final wave came you tried to find any niche you could or get swept away with the other million musician/engineers trying to get a gig. I had worked 8 hours at a bar then 8 hours at the studio just to survive. The veteren engineers I worked with had stories. Really good stories. It was exciting too. I helped record and mix some really cool albums and got to hear a lot of great stories from some really respected producers and engineers. It was a blast. And all the while there was gear everywhere. On a test bench, in a rack along with hundreds of other coveted pieces of equipment. All owned by some drunk rich guy who just wanted to own a studio. Yeah those were the days.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Feb 12, 2017 12:31:05 GMT -6
How in the hell did I miss this thread? This is an awesome thread and hits me right where I am right now. It gets really old getting lo-balled for everything and then you realize you're making minimum wage. Although, I'm not sure I could even tell you how many hours I spend on something, because I usually don't keep track like a dumbass. Maybe I don't want to know. How many times have I been mixing something down only to hear something and then - in a fit of cussing - have to go back and fix. As for notching, I've been doing that a bit lately. I record vocals in a small room - it's pretty damn dead, but I seems to have issues in the 1-3.5kHz range no matter what the mic. I've definitely noticed that I don't get nearly the spikes when I record in figure of 8. aamicrophones, I've never heard anyone mention this before - can you expound?
|
|
|
Post by joseph on Feb 12, 2017 14:42:18 GMT -6
I rather like the sound of a U87 in fig 8. Would love to try a UM70 or UMT70S.
Fig 8 can help a lot with standing waves cause of the much deeper off axis null than cardioid.
I wonder if the spikiness is also contributed to by the higher resonance of these ranges on the back capsule when cardioid is engaged. In the 87, the honky range is emphasized over others at 180.
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Feb 12, 2017 18:55:18 GMT -6
umt70s in 8 was the obvious winner on an acoustic bass along with live drums earlier this year. Null towards kick drum (played by bassist), good upper mid definition.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,013
|
Post by ericn on Feb 12, 2017 20:33:22 GMT -6
Might be the fact that the back side is phase reversed and so your getting phase cancellation that's working for you.
|
|
|
Post by donr on Feb 12, 2017 20:55:55 GMT -6
John, did you ever 'shoot' your room with a measurement mic and a program like Room EQ Wizard? Most acoustic room evil is on the low end, but if you had a midrange issue, it'd likely show up.
I like the sound of a LCD in figure-8. I put my bi-fold 6' gobos on both sides of the 8, like the wings of a Tie-Fighter. It's ok to record dry-ish these days, so many ways of creating any vocal ambience you want post. In the day, our final vocals were done with a gobo wall behind the singer and facing a cardiod LDC, but not behind the mic in the live room. Exceptions were a large vocal or overdub booth.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Feb 12, 2017 22:08:31 GMT -6
I did a loooong time ago...and it just seemed totally futzed up. The EQ that it put on my mix made the bottom way too loud if I remember correctly.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,013
|
Post by ericn on Feb 13, 2017 8:28:27 GMT -6
John, did you ever 'shoot' your room with a measurement mic and a program like Room EQ Wizard? Most acoustic room evil is on the low end, but if you had a midrange issue, it'd likely show up. I like the sound of a LCD in figure-8. I put my bi-fold 6' gobos on both sides of the 8, like the wings of a Tie-Fighter. It's ok to record dry-ish these days, so many ways of creating any vocal ambience you want post. In the day, our final vocals were done with a gobo wall behind the singer and facing a cardiod LDC, but not behind the mic in the live room. Exceptions were a large vocal or overdub booth. John's little room is almost beyond help😎 You could treat most of the surfaces and I can still imagine a bunch of lowend build up, yet somehow he makes it work! The wave guides on the Amphions do make things easier unfortunately a bass horn would be bigger than his room!
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 13, 2017 9:16:33 GMT -6
If John's room is beyond help, mine's beyond beyond! I'm in the living room of a Manhattan apartment. I can't treat the room, because my wife lives here too ;-) It's a big building. I'm on the ground floor. I have a large laundry room with six dryers and six washers underneath, plus the motor rooms for two elevators directly below that get used all day. My door is right near the mail room, so people are chatting and banging their mailboxes intermittently, and the garbage collection is outside my windows. Not to mention the basic street noise, like ambulance and fire truck sirens.
Basically, I've surrendered, and just live with it and hope to get to a better place sooner than later.
It sounds terrible, I know, but it's just the worst location in a beautiful building in the best NYC neighborhood, only steps from the incredible Riverside Park, so it has its merits too. My area is one of only a few non-commercial areas. There are no stores, clubs or shops, it's just residential. So it's a lot more peaceful here, but only a city block away are all the best things in NY, including the best Indian food I've ever had!
|
|