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Post by terryrocks on Jul 3, 2016 12:33:01 GMT -6
I'm tracking a rock band next tuesday and when I asked about the ideal drum image/tones the guy said, big Albini sounding drums.
I'm not tracking in an exciting liveroom (basement with no exposed wood).
Any ideas as to how I can achieve this?
One idea I had was that in addition to my normal drum mic thing (stereo oh, one mic per drum beater side, hh, kick reso side, mono or stereo room) was to add a spaced pair stereo ldc pointing at the ground in front of the kick maybe 1ft off ground and 2 feet from kit. And maybe with a large/dense cut of birch paneling for the sound to reflect off of. I'm definitely gonna try it out since i have plenty of channels/mics and the wood panel in my garage.
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Post by joseph on Jul 3, 2016 13:59:18 GMT -6
Will be difficult in a space like that, obviously. How hard/trashy are the room reflections? Most of the main sound of his drums on his more famous records is an M/S pair out front, not overheads per se, which he has said he didn't favor until more recently to reinforce the kit sound. Plus omni boundary mics. But since you're working with small room, if you have any ribbon mics like M160s or m130/m160, might be helpful to tame the reflections for a small room pair, say 4 feet out and 3 feet up. M/S condenser setup could get trashy, depending on the sound of the room. And you could try a condenser mic on the snare and toms. He uses altec lipstick mic on snare now, but in the past used a beyer m201 with an sm98 taped and aligned to it. E22S on toms. He also doesn't mic the skins super close but like 6-8 inches back. Another thing you might try is putting an expander on room mic(s), keyed off the snare. That way you can get some of that exciting sound without muddying up or trashing up the kit too much. He does that sometimes. Also, he never mikes the hihat, in fact sometimes he'll put keys in the hihat to tame it. Surfer Rosa www.electricalaudio.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11841Jesus Lizard Goat www.electricalaudio.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=43177 |
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Post by terryrocks on Jul 3, 2016 14:48:39 GMT -6
i worry that my room is too small/dark for mid-side out front of the kit.
Guess I just give it a shot when we begin setup and see/hear what it sound like.
Was also thinking glyn johns method might be the way to go.
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Post by jazznoise on Jul 3, 2016 15:33:56 GMT -6
The sound Albini is synonymous with is the big M/S front of kit sound in a big, lovely room. He'll delay it to avoid phasing and sometimes, like on In Utero, for a deliberate flamming sound. It's not a very compressed sound - usually just some limiting and a bit of EQ.
If you're looking for a big natural sound, you can do it and send the room mics to a reverb after. I'd suggest 2 omni boundary mics, the FOK stereo setup and maybe a kick drum mic + close mics. Usually I keep the kick mic the same distanc as the room mics. Doing Glynn Johns or whatever is going to end up with you climbing into a hole to climb back out.
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Post by popmann on Jul 3, 2016 16:08:01 GMT -6
I think you need to NOT count In Utero. He didn't mix it. While there is absolutely a sound he consistently gets....THAT is not it. If you like lots of other albums he actually tracked AND mixed, cool---but, yes, unfortunately, you need a room. He DID, however, do a BFD expansion that will have room mics of his room.
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Post by Ward on Jul 3, 2016 16:57:00 GMT -6
Start with the source: THE DRUMS.
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Post by strangeways on Jul 3, 2016 19:37:23 GMT -6
The "albini" and "bonham" drum sound are a general request i have gotten many times from lots of bands i record. Usually, it means leaning more on room mics, about 10-15 ft out, with heavy 1176 style compression. It tends to be a less modern sound, and a more natural drum sound that represents the kit vs individual close mics.
Albini delays his room mics by 10-20ms i believe, and keys them to open on snare hits.
If you have a small room that doesn't sound great, just worry about tuning and close mics and reamp elsewhere. Find a hall or church in your area and see if you can come by after hrs with a couple powered speakers and a laptop, and reamp with some room mics up. Or even a parking garage stairwell. Anywhere with a cool reverb can get you useable results. Prob won't sound exactly like Electrical, but itll get you ballpark.
If all else fails, use a plugin verb with a predelay.
D.
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Post by svart on Jul 3, 2016 21:32:53 GMT -6
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Post by terryrocks on Jul 3, 2016 23:26:05 GMT -6
I think you need to NOT count In Utero. He didn't mix it. While there is absolutely a sound he consistently gets....THAT is not it. If you like lots of other albums he actually tracked AND mixed, cool---but, yes, unfortunately, you need a room. He DID, however, do a BFD expansion that will have room mics of his room. For the twentieth anniversary of In Utero, Grohl and Noveselic had Albini remix it to his liking and then they released it. |
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Post by sean on Jul 4, 2016 8:22:20 GMT -6
To try to get a more ambient sound in a small room try pointing room microphones at the far wall, even into the ceiling corners, with the capsules facing away from the source, and if possible with gobos around the microphones to try and eliminate the direct signal as much as possible. Or if you have some boundry microphones you can place on the floor that can work as well. I've had good success with taking cardioid microphones and putting them maybe a foot off the ground, pointed at the floor. There's lots of things to try!
If you have the ability, try using a mid side set up in front of the kit. Doesn't have to be too far, maybe a few feet in front, where it sounds good, about waist or chest height.
Have fun!
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Post by javamad on Jul 4, 2016 8:58:23 GMT -6
Try a mono room mic pointing away from the drums to only get all the reflected sound as the null of the cardioid pattern will eliminate the direct drum sound. Then put a 20-25 ms delay on that to make it sound like the room was bigger and the mic was farther away ... blend in to taste.
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Post by jazznoise on Jul 4, 2016 11:30:43 GMT -6
I'd stay away from the smashathon and try and just go for a really good representation of the kit sound in the room. If they want a bigger, boomier sound and it's not happening in the room I'd be playing with the tuning. Both heads to the same pitch gives a big powerful ring, can be a good way to make up for a fairly dead room!
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Post by Ward on Jul 4, 2016 12:19:36 GMT -6
I'd stay away from the smashathon and try and just go for a really good representation of the kit sound in the room. If they want a bigger, boomier sound and it's not happening in the room I'd be playing with the tuning. Both heads to the same pitch gives a big powerful ring, can be a good way to make up for a fairly dead room! Some of us love the smash-a-thon  |
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Post by jazznoise on Jul 4, 2016 14:02:06 GMT -6
I'd stay away from the smashathon and try and just go for a really good representation of the kit sound in the room. If they want a bigger, boomier sound and it's not happening in the room I'd be playing with the tuning. Both heads to the same pitch gives a big powerful ring, can be a good way to make up for a fairly dead room! Some of us love the smash-a-thon It's fine, but it's not the albini sound by a mile. We actually do it on track 3 of the EP and I'm hit and miss. I just get bored of the effect very quickly. |
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Post by scumbum on Jul 5, 2016 17:36:38 GMT -6
I think you need to NOT count In Utero. He didn't mix it. While there is absolutely a sound he consistently gets....THAT is not it. If you like lots of other albums he actually tracked AND mixed, cool---but, yes, unfortunately, you need a room. He DID, however, do a BFD expansion that will have room mics of his room. Most of the songs on In Utero were mixed by Albini . Heart-Shaped Box , All Apologies and Pennyroyal Tea were remixed . All the other tracks were mixed by Albini . So In Utero does count as an Albini production . |
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Post by jazznoise on Jul 6, 2016 5:45:21 GMT -6
That and the sounds aren't terrible different. The guy pulled down the room mics, used a different solo and put a lot more emphasise on the DT's. It's not like the guy slathered the drums in Slate Samples.
If you download the multitracks for In Utero you'll see Steve is using about 4 different room mics, also has room mics for the vocals and the amps at times and is for the most part not keying or compressing anything very much. You could nearly do the mix of Very Ape with some EQ's and half a dozen clean limiters.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 6, 2016 6:44:50 GMT -6
The opening of In Utero with Serve the Servants is fantastic. The clicks into the big roomy drums. Swoon.
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Post by svart on Jul 6, 2016 7:24:37 GMT -6
The opening of In Utero with Serve the Servants is fantastic. The clicks into the big roomy drums. Swoon. I think the drums sound good, but that weird slapback they have on it just kills it for me. Really, really odd. |
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Post by terryrocks on Jul 6, 2016 9:06:24 GMT -6
Was listening yesterday and they only happen on certain hits. Sounds like a flam to me.
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Post by jazznoise on Jul 6, 2016 16:51:21 GMT -6
The flamming is from the delay added to the room tracks. Like I said earlier. I'm split on it, I kinda like it and I can see why it would be offputting too.
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Post by rocinante on Jul 7, 2016 0:10:43 GMT -6
I like the beginning drums to serve the servents. They so say "okay,let's begin". More importantly its a controlled compression that sounds like its gone haywire and it makes them instantly recognizable.
All of those albums are engineering masterpieces but you can tell that on In Utero Albini applied a ton of effects tricks and kept it polished while still being different.
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Post by gouge on Jul 7, 2016 8:17:38 GMT -6
from what I've read, steve uses a limiter on the overheads to stop the snare peaks distorting the tape. he also doesn't mix in every mic he records. for example he doesn't always use the room mics and the overhead together. he uses many different stereo mic setups on overheads and out in front. depends on what he thinks is best. plus he is recording to tape. the mics he picks and the positions he puts them in in large part are going to tape and without that it will never sound the same.
I have also been fortunate enough to ask some questions of Steve at gigs during "question time" and he is very much in the set up stereo mics properly camp. ie. m/s, xy, blumlein etc.
having tried to emulate his sound many times (digital) i'd say it usually results in an m/s setup out front sounding closest. I borrowed jazznoises Omni mics on the floor idea and that's what I like most in my small room these days in xy. When all is said and done to my ears it's either m/s set level with kick or xy on the floor that sound pretty good. you can't typically get away with a spaced pair of stereo room mics as the ratio to avoid phase won't work in a small room. we need to remember steve albini developed his micking technique in basements with poor acoustics.
the mics are a big part of the sound also.
the m380 is a monster on kick and bass. that is one reason you would use a beater mic as well.
most other mics he uses are royer active ribbons on overheads, not really spaced pair but spot mics. that said I've seen session photos of that and blumlein, xy etc etc. so it seems it depends.
other mics are usually josephsons on toms/snare etc. c24 out front.
he sets the mics perpendicular to the skins with 3-4 inches of space typically and doesn't always use double mics. plus he has some tube pencil mics he likes on snare.
probably all just comes down to this. to sound like steve albini you need steve albinis ears.
meanwhile,,, mr albini is an awesome dude.... :-)
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Post by rocinante on Jul 7, 2016 11:50:30 GMT -6
It seems most of the producers and engineers i like use royers and that they have a significant part of their sound.
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Post by terryrocks on Jul 7, 2016 12:53:33 GMT -6
So, on tuesday i ended up using blumlein in front of kit with spot mics and a couple other stereo pair for room. The center image bugs me. It doesn't sound terrible, but lacks weight.
Now that we're done and I'm just hanging out by myself this morning I set up a mid-side pair in front with stereo rooms adding slight delay to the room mics. Crazy. Wish I'd tried this before. Now I can get serious weight in the center image. I will definitely use this technique in the future.
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Post by schmalzy on Jul 7, 2016 13:43:28 GMT -6
So, on tuesday i ended up using blumlein in front of kit with spot mics and a couple other stereo pair for room. The center image bugs me. It doesn't sound terrible, but lacks weight. Now that we're done and I'm just hanging out by myself this morning I set up a mid-side pair in front with stereo rooms adding slight delay to the room mics. Crazy. Wish I'd tried this before. Now I can get serious weight in the center image. I will definitely use this technique in the future. I really love M/S for drum room stuff. I went away from it for a while but I think I'll be going back the next time I have a drum kit wander into the studio. It sounds good. There's a solid center image that captures all the punch you have in the room. Also, the width is variable. Is the room sound wider during the last chorus on a lot of my stuff? You bet your ass it is! Worth noting is my predilection to mic'ing acoustic guitar with an M/S pair - it's like a direct mic and a "short reverb" mic that are phase coherent and provide a little width. |
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