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Post by jazznoise on Jul 10, 2016 23:26:20 GMT -6
As said the center image is variable. Blumlein and MS are close to interchangeable with ribbons. Using an MS matrix after will let you widen it with no risk of artifacts, I usually do end up adding quite a bit. Often very wide OH with a hole in the middle for the mono room/kick mic and space for the vocals works great, especially when you add the stereo room mics in to push the cymbals back a bit.
Schmalzy's idea of varying the side signal between song sections sounds great. I do something similar pulling up or down the stereo room, mono room and OH's to achieve different senses of space but I definitely want to try that.
I'd strongly recommend anyone trying this technique stick the compressors on bypass and see what they can achieve. That said I've a release for a local band coming out and the end sections I kick on a big distorting compressor sound like a fuzz pedal for the drum kit. Works great on those big post rock crescendos, very Mogwai.
Glad to hear you're liking the setup Gouge.
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Post by c0rtland on Jul 11, 2016 0:41:56 GMT -6
Drums have become my favorite instrument to record. Funny, drums used to really intimidate me, now I just have a healthy respect for them. In my experience, learning to mic drums well has been a process of unlearning the knee jerk reaction of doing what I think I'm supposed to do. Instead, trying to come to decisions by asking myself, every step of the way, how exactly is this going to get me closer to the sound in my head and why is it going to work. If my answer to 'why' is 'because I saw someone else do it' then I need analyze the situation more. Draw on what I know about my room, what I know about behavior of sound waves, past experiences etc. Above all, take an extra minute and really listen. change mic placement as many times as I need to until I have proved to myself this is the best way for me to get to where I want to be. If I really begin to understand why, then it is repeatable. I've found time spent here is time saved in mixing so it balances itself out In the end. Not to mention it sounds better than forcing it afterwards.
If I want to mimic someone's sound, I better try and understand their thought process as best I can. That approach should get me closer than looking at pictures of where they put a mic. Understanding why they did it, not where it ended up. Mimicking placement hasn't worked out for me very well in the past. It took me to a point then turned around and spit in my face. I really enjoy albinis drum sounds. Dude is a maniac. And that video above of him lecturing is great! I'd go to the school of albini any day of the week... I have a long long long way to go myself. I'm not trying to school anyone, just sharing my experience.
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Post by scumbum on Jul 12, 2016 14:58:03 GMT -6
How does Albini mic guitar cabs ?
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Post by gouge on Jul 13, 2016 6:45:28 GMT -6
He uses a bunch of different mics, rca 74jr, e22, 4038, bk5, u67 crown omni room mic
With gml preamps and as a guess his neve pres on some sources.
There is a lot written about 3 mics, 2 close, ie, a bright mic and a dark mic and the omni as a room mic. That also allows him to pan both close mics left and right if needed. Because he only has 16-24 tracks he will also track mics mixed.
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Post by rocinante on Jul 13, 2016 10:15:48 GMT -6
Is he summing the 2-3 mics to one track? Massey for instance repeatedly uses a vintage u47 and an sdc and sums them.
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Post by gouge on Jul 13, 2016 16:36:06 GMT -6
I've read he does both. from what I gather it comes more down to track count vs instrumentation. however seems he does like to give room mics their own channel so he can mix in the amount of reverb he needs to suit the mixdown.
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Post by gouge on Jul 13, 2016 16:40:15 GMT -6
to add,
at electrical audio they record bands live off the floor. they make decisions in realtime and try and record the finished sound. he would be making mix decisions during tracking.
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Post by channelcat on Jul 19, 2016 20:10:25 GMT -6
I dig Steve and the albums he's worked on, but did anyone else notice that he totally contradicted himself in this video? He talked about recording the drums as an instrument, and compared it to recording a piano, mentioning how asinine it would be to record each individual strings on a piano, and yet he put s mics on top and bottom heads?!?! Am I missing something? I know he doesn't use all the mics in the mix, but it really seemed to contradict the point he was trying to push.
Stu
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Post by jazznoise on Jul 20, 2016 0:27:21 GMT -6
I think his point is about his heavy use of room mics and his preference for them if the situation allows. That said if he has a metal band in, he can't avoid mic'ing cymbals and hitting the tape hard because that's what the band will want. The top/bottom thing is a more balanced view of drum spot mic'ing. Listen to a Shellac record to hear how he applies this to his own stuff.
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Post by schmalzy on Jul 21, 2016 9:48:25 GMT -6
The top/bottom thing is a more balanced view of drum spot mic'ing. That's what I was going to suggest: since he HAS to mic the top to get the attack, he mics the bottom to get the rest of the drum. Full picture of the instrument.
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Post by matt on Jul 15, 2018 22:26:54 GMT -6
Bumping this thread. Here's a new-ish, awesome video. I love his approach- so down to earth and intellectual.
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Post by michaelcleary on Jul 16, 2018 14:02:20 GMT -6
for those in this thread that mention using limiters as opposed to compressors on the drums, what models can you suggest? Thanks, mc
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Post by svart on Jul 16, 2018 14:05:07 GMT -6
for those in this thread that mention using limiters as opposed to compressors on the drums, what models can you suggest? Thanks, mc Neve 33609. THE limiter for drums.
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Post by matt@IAA on Jul 16, 2018 14:21:53 GMT -6
Is he summing the 2-3 mics to one track? Massey for instance repeatedly uses a vintage u47 and an sdc and sums them. Sylvia’s go-to is a 57 and a 421 on two cabs. She usually uses a Plexi and one other (like her Engl or other amp), then sums those four mics to one track. Double takes for stereo pair.
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Post by notneeson on Jul 16, 2018 14:41:40 GMT -6
for those in this thread that mention using limiters as opposed to compressors on the drums, what models can you suggest? Thanks, mc Albini uses an extremely transparent limiter for this duty, a BSS as I recall. You could probably get something similar out of a judiciously applied amount of brickwall. But, as suggested a 33609 would probably be more fun. I've only used the AML 54F50s myself.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jul 16, 2018 17:32:06 GMT -6
I’ve not found something where I dig the 33609 limiter side more than the compressor side.
A pair of Pye comps in limit mode really does it for me on room mics.
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Post by levon on Jul 17, 2018 3:17:19 GMT -6
for those in this thread that mention using limiters as opposed to compressors on the drums, what models can you suggest? Thanks, mc Albini uses an extremely transparent limiter for this duty, a BSS as I recall. You could probably get something similar out of a judiciously applied amount of brickwall. But, as suggested a 33609 would probably be more fun. I've only used the AML 54F50s myself. I love my 54F50s on drums, but I have only used it as a comp so far, notneeson, can you share some limiter settings to start with?
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Post by drumrec on Jul 17, 2018 8:00:36 GMT -6
Hi terryrocks Today is the time of opportunity and there are only possibilities. If you have a less good room that does not sound so good/big I would do the following. Dampen down the room as much as possible. Be sure to get good tones throughout the drums and mic up Glyn Johns + close mic. Then you have caught a fairly dry sound of the entire kit with balance. Then reamp the "Glyn Johns" microphones through the UAD Ocean Way room reverb or a Seven Heaven reverb with "Chamber" or "Rooms1 / 01 Studio A". Then meet up with the close mic for the attack. Have fun and tweak around. Not forgetting, the energy and the presence are the most important in the music. Capture it in your recording, you're home bro KR H.Hansson
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Post by svart on Jul 17, 2018 8:04:13 GMT -6
I can't be the only one who just doesn't like Albini's work.. To me it sounds like an amateur who's been able to use high end equipment but never got any better than bedroom mix quality..
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jul 17, 2018 9:51:32 GMT -6
I can't be the only one who just doesn't like Albini's work.. To me it sounds like an amateur who's been able to use high end equipment but never got any better than bedroom mix quality.. I'm kind of with you on this one but didn't wanna be the first to jump in on that. I just don't really get whatever "it" is. Which is fine. Different strokes for different folks. Steve gets a hell of a lot more work than I do so good on him for getting his formula down.
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Post by Quint on Jul 17, 2018 11:28:34 GMT -6
I can't be the only one who just doesn't like Albini's work.. To me it sounds like an amateur who's been able to use high end equipment but never got any better than bedroom mix quality.. If by amateur, you mean that his tracking/mixing isn't slathered in production and effects, then I think you're missing the point. Some people like all of that added to a mix. Others don't. Sometimes it just depends. Either way, I wouldn't discount his work as amateur simply because it doesn't fit your particular aesthetic. I'd say he's one of the best at doing the whole "live band in a room" thing. Also, when it comes to his mixes, keep in mind his punk background and that punk or music of a similar vain isn't necessarily supposed to sound "pretty" but is supposed to sound loud, raw and powerful. Speaking as someone who is very much into that style of music, I think he does a great job of capturing/creating that type of sound, un-"pretty" as that may sound to some people.
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Post by svart on Jul 17, 2018 12:03:58 GMT -6
I can't be the only one who just doesn't like Albini's work.. To me it sounds like an amateur who's been able to use high end equipment but never got any better than bedroom mix quality.. If by amateur, you mean that his tracking/mixing isn't slathered in production and effects, then I think you're missing the point. Some people like all of that added to a mix. Others don't. Sometimes it just depends. Either way, I wouldn't discount his work as amateur simply because it doesn't fit your particular aesthetic. I'd say he's one of the best at doing the whole "live band in a room" thing. Also, when it comes to his mixes, keep in mind his punk background and that punk or music of a similar vain isn't necessarily supposed to sound "pretty" but is supposed to sound loud, raw and powerful. Speaking as someone who is very much into that style of music, I think he does a great job of capturing/creating that type of sound, un-"pretty" as that may sound to some people. To me, his mixes sound like someone set a bunch of room mics up while saying "I'll fix that in the mix" and never did, then just slapped a limiter on the end and called it a day.
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Post by Quint on Jul 17, 2018 13:36:00 GMT -6
If by amateur, you mean that his tracking/mixing isn't slathered in production and effects, then I think you're missing the point. Some people like all of that added to a mix. Others don't. Sometimes it just depends. Either way, I wouldn't discount his work as amateur simply because it doesn't fit your particular aesthetic. I'd say he's one of the best at doing the whole "live band in a room" thing. Also, when it comes to his mixes, keep in mind his punk background and that punk or music of a similar vain isn't necessarily supposed to sound "pretty" but is supposed to sound loud, raw and powerful. Speaking as someone who is very much into that style of music, I think he does a great job of capturing/creating that type of sound, un-"pretty" as that may sound to some people. To me, his mixes sound like someone set a bunch of room mics up while saying "I'll fix that in the mix" and never did, then just slapped a limiter on the end and called it a day. I think your comment about "I'll fix it in the mix" is making the assumption that it needed fixing in the first place and is also basically making the general point I was trying to get across. A guy who owns THAT many mics doesn't approach things from an, "I'll fix it in the mix" mentality. Things are tracked the way they are intended to sound. You may not like that sort of room sound, but that doesn't have anything to do with it being amateur or not. I feel like the current era of recordings, where things are often tracked in less than ideal rooms, has geared a lot of people towards the notion that anything more than a smidge of room sound must automatically mean it's a bad sounding room/recording by default. Steve's rooms are anything but amateur in design or sound. If there is roominess in those recordings, it's by choice, and it's a sound that a lot of people like.
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Post by notneeson on Jul 17, 2018 17:58:50 GMT -6
Albini uses an extremely transparent limiter for this duty, a BSS as I recall. You could probably get something similar out of a judiciously applied amount of brickwall. But, as suggested a 33609 would probably be more fun. I've only used the AML 54F50s myself. I love my 54F50s on drums, but I have only used it as a comp so far, notneeson , can you share some limiter settings to start with? This was my starting point last time I used them: stereo Linked, 2:1, Compress Fast, Limit Slow, threshold at -6, Make Up Gain +10, Compress recovery Auto, Limit Recovery 100ms, Limit Level +10. But I moved on from there and didn't keep notes. Fast limit would be worth a shot.
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Post by levon on Jul 18, 2018 2:52:36 GMT -6
Thanks, I just need something to start with, I'll experiment from there on...
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