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Post by rowmat on Jun 12, 2016 17:46:06 GMT -6
What's your method for dealing with very dynamic singers?
I'm talking about singers that go from a whisper to a scream.
Do you typically...
1. Gain ride on the fly?
2. Have them track the loud and soft sections separately so you can set the preamp/limiter gains appropriately?
3. Daisy chain multiple limiters/comps together rather than slamming a single device?
4. Split the mic signal into two or more preamps set to different gains?
5. Use more than one mic at a different distance/gain?
Bear in mind we can be faced with no time, limited budgets and a singer who may not want to do more than two or three takes.
1. IMO gain riding is hit and miss especially if you don't have the luxury of run throughs in order to take notes.
2. Tracking sections separately can be a vibe killer and may not be possible if the singer only has a limited number of takes in them before they start over straining their vocal chords.
3. Daisy chaining multiple limiters/comps together prevents any one device from being slammed but doesn't help if the preamp is getting hit too hard at the start of the chain (refer back to gain riding)
4. IMO using a mic splitter feeding seperate preamps and recording several tracks of the same take at different levels and comp'ing the tracks together seems the safest bet if you have the preamps to suit.
Say 60db of gain for the whispers, 35db for the average level stuff and say 20db or less (line level even) for the screams.
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Post by wiz on Jun 12, 2016 17:54:32 GMT -6
I think all you can do is, some combination or all of the above.
If you have only one shot... gain stage for the loudest bit (thats kind of obvious) .. track without compression, try and get at least two full passes ( i usually ask for 3 back to back, its 15 mins or so). Then fix it after they have gone, of which there
are plenty of ways to handle it.
There really is nothing else you can do.. capture the loudest bit without unwanted distortion, and thats it baby... 8)
Firstly, get the performance (again, I hate writing this stuff cause its really self evident and comes over as condescending and its not what I intend) .... and if the vocalist needs to do that in complete sections, so be it.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by rowmat on Jun 12, 2016 18:02:09 GMT -6
We did all of the above at the weekend with the exception of the mic splitter. The singer went from breathy whispers to almost screaming. She hasn't had much recording experience so didn't grasp what that meant. Typically I'll also try and get three passes after setting the gains for the loudest sections. However if the singer is inconsistent in level by up to 10db (or more) between takes it still can be a crap shoot. Of course performance is king but often the best take is the one where they suddenly decided to swallow the mic after being 12" from it the previous take. I have been contemplating getting a mic splitter for sometime. The weekend just convinced me to get one!  We were also having to ride her headphone cue send like crazy as when she sang quietly she complained she could no longer hear herself. The situation over the weekend was mainly due to her recording inexperience and having limited time. |
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Post by M57 on Jun 12, 2016 18:38:21 GMT -6
I'm just thinking of a way to kind of force the issue with the singer. Why not give them a wicked loud vocal in their cans with no compression in an attempt to get them to get at least some mic technique going, if only to protect their ears. ..or even throw in an expander to really get their attention!
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Post by rowmat on Jun 12, 2016 18:49:33 GMT -6
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Post by rowmat on Jun 12, 2016 18:55:29 GMT -6
I'm just thinking of a way to kind of force the issue with the singer. Why not give them a wicked loud vocal in their cans with no compression in an attempt to get them to get at least some mic technique going, if only to protect their ears. ..or even throw in an expander to really get their attention! I tried that but she wanted her cue send turned down on her loud parts and up in the quiet bits. I suggested to her not to sing so loud or back off the mic a little but she said that would kill the vibe. This session was tougher than normal because all the 'usual tricks' didn't work. |
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Post by sean on Jun 12, 2016 18:56:20 GMT -6
You could also set up two microphones, physically line them up the best you can, and have the gain set different for different sections. A stereo microphone with rotating capsule works good for this...like a C24 Maybe there's a microphone that's better for the whispery stuff and one that sounds better for the loud parts, might save some mixing work. |
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Post by M57 on Jun 12, 2016 18:57:58 GMT -6
How far does she sing from the mic?
(I'm thinking two mics at different distances)
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Post by rowmat on Jun 12, 2016 19:06:07 GMT -6
How far does she sing from the mic? I set the pop filter 12" from the mic so she couldn't get any closer for the loud stuff. About 4" was good for the quiet stuff. In the end I managed to convince her record the loud and soft passages separately but it was a struggle and cost a couple of hours. I think next time she will have a better understanding of the process. |
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Post by rowmat on Jun 12, 2016 19:10:59 GMT -6
How far does she sing from the mic? (I'm thinking two mics at different distances) I used a Flea 47 into a Mercury V76m. Don't have too many Flea 47's or V76m's lying about! I think a splitter feeding multiple pre's is the way to go. |
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Post by Randge on Jun 12, 2016 19:15:31 GMT -6
Grassers are always super dynamic, so I have learned to cut verses and choruses separately if need be. If they don't want to do that, then they are looking at -30 vocals in some places. My rooms are dead quiet, so I can get away with it since the RTZ preamps I use are very quiet. I usually try to harp on them about controlling their loud parts a bit and singing the low sweet spots louder. By the end of the record, they are thinking entirely differently about the whole singing process.
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Post by rowmat on Jun 12, 2016 19:16:03 GMT -6
You could also set up two microphones, physically line them up the best you can, and have the gain set different for different sections. A stereo microphone with rotating capsule works good for this...like a C24 Maybe there's a microphone that's better for the whispery stuff and one that sounds better for the loud parts, might save some mixing work. That's definately an option... just as long as you're supplying the C24 |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jun 12, 2016 19:21:49 GMT -6
Not to go all audio Zen, but the world of live one offs teaches 2 things.
1 you need to know where your overloading to correct it.
2 nothing wrong with riding the gain or 2 back off !
Anytime I would work live with an opera singer, everything but the vocal would be on a VCA so I could ride the vocal , everything else and the master so I could keep the balance and overall level stable while riding the vocal!
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Post by rowmat on Jun 12, 2016 19:33:03 GMT -6
Not to go all audio Zen, but the world of live one offs teaches 2 things. 1 you need to know where your overloading to correct it. 2 nothing wrong with riding the gain or 2 back off ! Anytime I would work live with an opera singer, everything but the vocal would be on a VCA so I could ride the vocal , everything else and the master so I could keep the balance and overall level stable while riding the vocal! The Mercury V76m preamp was where we did the riding because unless we reduced the gain at the front end the daisy chained limiters (Aphex Expresser 651 and WA76) were getting too slammed. The preamp gain ranged from 60db (quiet parts) down to around 18db (loud parts) of gain. The Mercury V76 doesn't clip hard but it does thicken up at the extremes. From her point it was her cue send level that she was having issues with due to her own large variations in vocal level. |
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Post by joseph on Jun 12, 2016 19:37:40 GMT -6
I like JS2 idea.
I've used one to grab live vocals split to monitors and it worked perfectly.
That and coaching the singer to back off when she gets loud.
Keep in mind that a flea 47 is not necessarily the best mic for a singer like this.
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Post by rocinante on Jun 12, 2016 19:50:12 GMT -6
Record it as two parts as well as split. I use an u87 for mellow. Sm7 into 1176 for screams.
I have a acquired a deep love for my vintagedesigns m81 for singers who do both screamo and mellow vox.
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Post by rowmat on Jun 12, 2016 19:59:06 GMT -6
I like JS2 idea. I've used one to grab live vocals split to monitors and it worked perfectly. That and coaching the singer to back off when she gets loud. Keep in mind that a flea 47 is not necessarily the best mic for a singer like this. Normally I would agree about the 47 for loud females not being the best choice however her voice doesn't get harsh and a 47 through a Mercury V76 is pretty smooth compared to a Neve etc. |
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Post by Randge on Jun 12, 2016 20:33:38 GMT -6
I will also record with just a mic and preamp capture so that the singer doesn't get smashed sounding vocals that you cant do anything with in post. With Cubase, I can just bring up quiet parts and bring down loud parts before inserting eq and compression. It only takes a few minutes. This makes the comp work a lot less hard and the vocal will sound way less stressed at mix time. Just my way of doing things.
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Post by swurveman on Jun 13, 2016 6:28:01 GMT -6
How about this: Tell the singer to control his/her loudness. Like backing off the mic during the louder parts.
Once can dream.....
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 13, 2016 7:18:11 GMT -6
I would cut verses and chorus separately. I think the vibe argument is hyperbolic. If you are Christina Aguilara, then we can talk about your vibe.
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Post by jimwilliams on Jun 13, 2016 10:42:31 GMT -6
Hire a pro and that problem is solved.
Some people have no business getting in front of a microphonne.
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Post by Randge on Jun 13, 2016 10:58:35 GMT -6
Hire a pro and that problem is solved. Some people have no business getting in front of a microphonne. We don't always get to pick and choose our clients, Jim. Sometimes you get a lemon to deal with. |
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Post by joseph on Jun 13, 2016 11:04:38 GMT -6
I've met a lot of singers who don't have great studio mic technique but sound fine on stage in front of an SM58.
Also even good musicians don't always have that much studio experience and can be stubborn in their misconceptions.
For example, they may actually want a thick sounding instrument and balanced and clear vocal but want you to use only room mics and they hate "compression" but actually love parallel compression. Or they like dynamic mics or ribbons because they sound more like "tape", but actually they like condensers the best, they're just used to shitty ones.
Or a drummer who doesn't think he needs a snare mic or a floor tom mic but does actually need them for reinforcement to get the sound they want.
Just all depends.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2016 11:10:41 GMT -6
gain stage loudest part, clip gain it once you have it all recorded
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 13, 2016 11:26:23 GMT -6
Losing the headphones and/or moving them back. Most wild dynamics are head motion.
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