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Post by Quint on Aug 18, 2018 10:00:13 GMT -6
Yes. I was just curious if running through B5 and then Melda after would cause some latency issues while playing. Gotcha. Nope, they're both zero latency. So did you buy the Mrotary or Mvintagerotary? I'm not sure what people prefer between the two or why?
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Post by ragan on Aug 18, 2018 10:03:01 GMT -6
Gotcha. Nope, they're both zero latency. So did you buy the Mrotary or Mvintagerotary? I'm not sure what people prefer between the two or why? I bought the MVintage Rotary. That’s the one I’d seen/heard people using with Hammond stuff and the demo impressed me. I actually scooped up a second hand license for like $35.
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Post by Quint on Aug 18, 2018 10:06:59 GMT -6
So did you buy the Mrotary or Mvintagerotary? I'm not sure what people prefer between the two or why? I bought the MVintage Rotary. That’s the one I’d seen/heard people using with Hammond stuff and the demo impressed me. I actually scooped up a second hand license for like $35. I have a Hammond M3, but no Leslie. I need to see about getting the M3 modded so that the line out can feed my AD and then on into Melda.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 18, 2018 14:32:45 GMT -6
So did you buy the Mrotary or Mvintagerotary? I'm not sure what people prefer between the two or why? I bought the MVintage Rotary. That’s the one I’d seen/heard people using with Hammond stuff and the demo impressed me. I actually scooped up a second hand license for like $35. Where do you find all this second hand stuff?
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Post by ragan on Aug 18, 2018 14:49:28 GMT -6
I bought the MVintage Rotary. That’s the one I’d seen/heard people using with Hammond stuff and the demo impressed me. I actually scooped up a second hand license for like $35. Where do you find all this second hand stuff? Besides here, GS is pretty much the only place that lets people sell software licenses. That I know of. That’s where I find ‘em. Plugs for pennies on the dollar often.
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Post by popmann on Aug 19, 2018 19:46:40 GMT -6
I'd never even considered separating the Leslie sim from the organ model...so, I figured I'd demo the latest IK Leslie...but, it's not receiving MIDI. I mean, I can set it up TO receive midi, but it's like UVI isn't passing it through in a Cubase instrument track?
How are you using the old MVintageRotary? You set the B5 to DI....thus the Leslie sim is off, cool...but, then the audio plug in receives the midi CC1 as you play? How do you switch speeds? Amplitube Leslie doesn't seem to receive the MIDI from the instrument in Cubase. It has a place to set it UP to change with MIDI...but, it doesn't seem to even pass through to the audio plug ins.
EDIT....the answer in Cubase (for anyone trying this at home) is that you need a second MIDI track to route the output of that to the audio plug in's MIDI Input. Maybe newer Cubase version can utilize the "Direct routing" stuff to do this form a single track. Dunno.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 19, 2018 20:55:46 GMT -6
I'd never even considered separating the Leslie sim from the organ model...so, I figured I'd demo the latest IK Leslie...but, it's not receiving MIDI. I mean, I can set it up TO receive midi, but it's like UVI isn't passing it through in a Cubase instrument track? How are you using the old MVintageRotary? You set the B5 to DI....thus the Leslie sim is off, cool...but, then the audio plug in receives the midi CC1 as you play? How do you switch speeds? Amplitube Leslie doesn't seem to receive the MIDI from the instrument in Cubase. It has a place to set it UP to change with MIDI...but, it doesn't seem to even pass through to the audio plug ins. EDIT....the answer in Cubase (for anyone trying this at home) is that you need a second MIDI track to route the output of that to the audio plug in's MIDI Input. Maybe newer Cubase version can utilize the "Direct routing" stuff to do this form a single track. Dunno. Yep. Took me a second too.
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Post by ragan on Aug 19, 2018 21:23:59 GMT -6
I'd never even considered separating the Leslie sim from the organ model...so, I figured I'd demo the latest IK Leslie...but, it's not receiving MIDI. I mean, I can set it up TO receive midi, but it's like UVI isn't passing it through in a Cubase instrument track? How are you using the old MVintageRotary? You set the B5 to DI....thus the Leslie sim is off, cool...but, then the audio plug in receives the midi CC1 as you play? How do you switch speeds? Amplitube Leslie doesn't seem to receive the MIDI from the instrument in Cubase. It has a place to set it UP to change with MIDI...but, it doesn't seem to even pass through to the audio plug ins. EDIT....the answer in Cubase (for anyone trying this at home) is that you need a second MIDI track to route the output of that to the audio plug in's MIDI Input. Maybe newer Cubase version can utilize the "Direct routing" stuff to do this form a single track. Dunno. I actually sent a support email to Melda asking them how to do that. I wasn't able to get it working. I was just (I know, I know...) automating the speed after the fact. I'm not a real Hammond player so it's not unnatural to me to do it that way. But yeah, long term, I want to get it running like you describe. I'll try the second MIDI track thing.
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Post by popmann on Aug 19, 2018 21:24:05 GMT -6
John, Can you do it with direct routing in 9.5?
I've found an interesting thing about the way I do this...I use CC1 as a toggle...so I can "hit" my CC joystick like I hit the Leslie switch on the organ-hit it, changes the speed, rather than 0-64 being slow and 65-127 being fast...but, that works weird with chase controllers. I just rendered both to audio and it took me 20 minutes to get them to toggle the speed the right way. The IK is smoother and more homogenized. The UVI "resonantly screams" more like my old 122. And honestly--points to the UVI for having the acoustic noises...I mean, sure you don't really HEAR those in mix context...but, it does help with the "as I play" self illusion...to HEAR the little click and acoustic wind noise....IK made all that go by bye...which I "get"...but, still...it's like the pedal noise on a piano, it's not really MUSICALLY important, but it's important in the emulation of the instrument itself....if that makes sense. Mastering engineers probably hate all the libraries putting that back--they spent so many years trying to remove that from recordings of actual pianos...ha...
I'll revisit some tomorrow...and figure out the easiest way to get the LPX on it...maybe see if this Melda thing has a demo, even though it's pretty old...anyone have other Leslie emulations I should check out?
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Post by ragan on Aug 19, 2018 21:24:22 GMT -6
I'd never even considered separating the Leslie sim from the organ model...so, I figured I'd demo the latest IK Leslie...but, it's not receiving MIDI. I mean, I can set it up TO receive midi, but it's like UVI isn't passing it through in a Cubase instrument track? How are you using the old MVintageRotary? You set the B5 to DI....thus the Leslie sim is off, cool...but, then the audio plug in receives the midi CC1 as you play? How do you switch speeds? Amplitube Leslie doesn't seem to receive the MIDI from the instrument in Cubase. It has a place to set it UP to change with MIDI...but, it doesn't seem to even pass through to the audio plug ins. EDIT....the answer in Cubase (for anyone trying this at home) is that you need a second MIDI track to route the output of that to the audio plug in's MIDI Input. Maybe newer Cubase version can utilize the "Direct routing" stuff to do this form a single track. Dunno. Yep. Took me a second too. So did you get it up and running in PT, John?
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Post by ragan on Aug 19, 2018 21:26:47 GMT -6
John, Can you do it with direct routing in 9.5? I've found an interesting thing about the way I do this...I use CC1 as a toggle...so I can "hit" my CC joystick like I hit the Leslie switch on the organ-hit it, changes the speed, rather than 0-64 being slow and 65-127 being fast...but, that works weird with chase controllers. I just rendered both to audio and it took me 20 minutes to get them to toggle the speed the right way. The IK is smoother and more homogenized. The UVI "resonantly screams" more like my old 122. And honestly--points to the UVI for having the acoustic noises...I mean, sure you don't really HEAR those in mix context...but, it does help with the "as I play" self illusion...to HEAR the little click and acoustic wind noise....IK made all that go by bye...which I "get"...but, still...it's like the pedal noise on a piano, it's not really MUSICALLY important, but it's important in the emulation of the instrument itself....if that makes sense. Mastering engineers probably hate all the libraries putting that back--they spent so many years trying to remove that from recordings of actual pianos...ha... I'll revisit some tomorrow...and figure out the easiest way to get the LPX on it...maybe see if this Melda thing has a demo, even though it's pretty old...anyone have other Leslie emulations I should check out? Melda has a demo. I'd love to know what you think. It's the best I've heard (subjective of course). It just brings grins when I play anything Hammond through it (be it ol' DB33, my actual M111 or the B5). When you're talking about "the UVI", are you talking about the B5's Leslie emulation or something else? I mean, I know B5 runs in the UVI player but does UVI have their own Leslie sim too?
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Post by popmann on Aug 20, 2018 8:20:19 GMT -6
without a long post on how these development environments work, yes the B5 is the one I refer to as UVI.
I did install more demos last night. Melda and the Helix Native. Helix having not much in the way of configuration, and obviously aimed at guitar players, but I liked the sound, grand scheme. Melda, I couldn’t make it make any sound I found at all realistic. It always sounded like an effect layered onto an organ sound. Like actually the vibrato scanner OF my C3 only “on 11”. I dug around in the engine and their presets looking for something that made it sound right, but I couldn’t. The others sounded right out of the box.
The key in a lot of the difference is in the upper range. Just comping chords, they’re likely all OK.
While I still have the demo period, I need to test the driven sounds. I don’t really use that in RL. Sims usually found like a caricature of a stock Leslie—I imagine there are likely high gain mods...I know there’s one that lets you use guitar pedals on the organ. Every video I’ve seen of the IK they’re driving the shit out of it. That’s how it’s built, looks like....I had to put the volume on 2 or something to get my typical tone.
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Post by popmann on Aug 20, 2018 9:01:55 GMT -6
Mixbus gets props (and Reaper will likely do the same with it's "universal track" paradigm)...you just line them up. UVI...into the IK Leslie...same channel, just passes the MIDI though unless you specify in the pinout to break the connection. Worked straight away. I'll use this for the rest of my comparison, since it means I can literally have them all lined up...and just enable and disable as I'm playing live. To ease this, I've mapped a Kronos slider to CC1...rather than my usually latching thing, which as I noted, MIDI doesn't like.
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Post by ragan on Aug 20, 2018 9:53:08 GMT -6
without a long post on how these development environments work, yes the B5 is the one I refer to as UVI. I did install more demos last night. Melda and the Helix Native. Helix having not much in the way of configuration, and obviously aimed at guitar players, but I liked the sound, grand scheme. Melda, I couldn’t make it make any sound I found at all realistic. It always sounded like an effect layered onto an organ sound. Like actually the vibrato scanner OF my C3 only “on 11”. I dug around in the engine and their presets looking for something that made it sound right, but I couldn’t. The others sounded right out of the box. The key in a lot of the difference is in the upper range. Just comping chords, they’re likely all OK. While I still have the demo period, I need to test the driven sounds. I don’t really use that in RL. Sims usually found like a caricature of a stock Leslie—I imagine there are likely high gain mods...I know there’s one that lets you use guitar pedals on the organ. Every video I’ve seen of the IK they’re driving the shit out of it. That’s how it’s built, looks like....I had to put the volume on 2 or something to get my typical tone. Well there you go. Goes to show how subjective all this is. I mic'd a 122 all the time for years and the Melda is the first sim that put a grin of recognition on my face. And in that Mike Rowe Hammr+ video when they switch from the 'stock' Leslie sim to the Melda it has the same effect. Everything else I've tried just sounds a little toy-ish to me. But again, no accounting for taste.
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Post by popmann on Aug 20, 2018 11:09:52 GMT -6
I suppose. I guess we do all hear differently. I know piano players who can't HEAR past how "right" Pianoteq responds to the...um we can call it subjective reality, I guess, that it doesn't sound much like a piano. I mean, it's not like they don't know what a piano sounds like, at least the ones I mean...kinda fucks with MY reality a little that they don't hear that, but.... Update when I went to drive them: I don't know what I did differently last night, as neither the Helix nor the Melda have preset baselines...but, the Helix, which brought a smile last night sounds like turd this morning. That's a major complaint I have with both the Helix and the Melda. No baseline presets. There really isn't enough differences between Leslies to have more than a few...122,145/7, modern one if someone cares...add "driven"..."jazz"..."Make Emerson Proud"....those should be in the preset list before 900 LFO sync'd filterd EDM ways to "creatively use" the algorithm. Onee thing I found out I was doing last night...is that the "tube distortion" knob on the B5 isn't part of the Leslie...so, it remains active when you switch it to DI. For better or worse-setting it to off made the Melda and Helix much worse...and made the IK not so absurdly driven. It's gain knob mapped much closer to the real deal with that off. I really think the room...technology (I don't technically know if they're using IRs or what)...in the B5's emu and the IK is important to the illusion. I always used to have to spend time with an IR reverb at mix time getting the modeler to sound like it existed in a real space--you mic a Leslie, you don't have to do that because it DOES exist in a real space. Anyway--the B5's works with the "mic distance" and positioning...and is fairly subtle...the IK gives you a whole other mixer channel and choice of room and mics IN the room--setting their level and polarity independently. it should be mentioned that all these are doing REALLY agro HPF'ing of the upper rotor. I don't even mic the lower unless I think the client might want a 70s organ sound...but, with these sims you HAVE to use both and balance them...I mention that not because it's a problem, but that's it's a point someone needs to know as they're fiddling with them. I think some are going as high as 600hz...maybe more...I don't mic them because there's PLENTY of low end in top mics from...bleed...the room...whatever...I imagine that's a modeling thing--like they're doing that balance at the amp crossover point internally--not where a mic would pick UP the high rotor vs the low...because you can't actually sperate them in what the kids call RL.
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Post by drbill on Dec 17, 2018 14:58:34 GMT -6
Bought the B5 and 8Dio's Vintage Organ over the last couple of weeks during the sales. ($98 for the Vintage Organ and $68 for the B5) The B5 is still sounding kind of VSTi-ish to me in comparison to the VOrgan. Problem with the Vintage Organ though is that is spikes my computer pretty hard with palm glisses - which is a mandatory playing technique for me. They have mentioned they are working on a solution, as they did EXTENSIVE sampling for every draw bar - so you are actually playing X number of notes times 9 drawbars for every sound - PLUS staccato and spicatto notes and various mic positions. LOTS of math going on..... A heavy long gliss into a big fat chord can probably have hundreds of voices going on. BUT, it (VO) does sound more like a real B3 recording to me. It's a bit thinner sounding with the same drawbar settings, and has a more "organic" (sorry for the pun) sound to me. I think this is because they recorded both slow and fast Leslie settings for their "analog" (i.e. - NON Computer Leslie FX) settings. Sometimes it can sound a bit weird as you switch between slow and fast leslie, but overall the leslie "vibe" is MUCH more realistic with the actual Leslie recordings. Plus, everything moves around more and is not so "perfect" as with the modeled leslie. You can use either their recorded Leslie mode (analog) or use a traditional VSTi Kontakt rotary effect - Modeled mode. Switching back and forth between is a freakin NO BRAINER as the Analog mode sounds SO much more real than the modeled mode. For note : I haven't gotten to try the Melda yet OR run the B5 out thru my 122 Leslie. I'm sure both of those will improve the B5 substantially. Oh, and I never popped on the Hammr+. Maybe I'll try that one someday as well..... As of today, my hardware B3 search / desire has slowed down a bit, but I still think there's nothing like the real thing. Plus the tube smell....I miss that...... I'm sure I will become bored with these new toys after awhile and the search will continue. I need a bigger house.....
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Post by drbill on Dec 17, 2018 15:07:10 GMT -6
PS - after a little more listening and thinking.....I think the part of the reason I'm liking the V Organ over the B5 is the Leslie amplifier. I'm intimate with those tube amps, and I can hear it in the tone of the VO. To me, they (the leslie amp) is an inseparable part of the B3 sound. I don't know how the B5 gets it's samples / modeled tones, but I don't hear that leslie amp in it.....
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 17, 2018 16:41:52 GMT -6
Bought the B5 and 8Dio's Vintage Organ over the last couple of weeks during the sales. ($98 for the Vintage Organ and $68 for the B5) The B5 is still sounding kind of VSTi-ish to me in comparison to the VOrgan. Problem with the Vintage Organ though is that is spikes my computer pretty hard with palm glisses - which is a mandatory playing technique for me. They have mentioned they are working on a solution, as they did EXTENSIVE sampling for every draw bar - so you are actually playing X number of notes times 9 drawbars for every sound - PLUS staccato and spicatto notes and various mic positions. LOTS of math going on..... A heavy long gliss into a big fat chord can probably have hundreds of voices going on. BUT, it (VO) does sound more like a real B3 recording to me. It's a bit thinner sounding with the same drawbar settings, and has a more "organic" (sorry for the pun) sound to me. I think this is because they recorded both slow and fast Leslie settings for their "analog" (i.e. - NON Computer Leslie FX) settings. Sometimes it can sound a bit weird as you switch between slow and fast leslie, but overall the leslie "vibe" is MUCH more realistic with the actual Leslie recordings. Plus, everything moves around more and is not so "perfect" as with the modeled leslie. You can use either their recorded Leslie mode (analog) or use a traditional VSTi Kontakt rotary effect - Modeled mode. Switching back and forth between is a freakin NO BRAINER as the Analog mode sounds SO much more real than the modeled mode. For note : I haven't gotten to try the Melda yet OR run the B5 out thru my 122 Leslie. I'm sure both of those will improve the B5 substantially. Oh, and I never popped on the Hammr+. Maybe I'll try that one someday as well..... As of today, my hardware B3 search / desire has slowed down a bit, but I still think there's nothing like the real thing. Plus the tube smell....I miss that...... I'm sure I will become bored with these new toys after awhile and the search will continue. I need a bigger house..... Oh wow - had no idea about the 8dio organ. Gonna have to check that out.
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Post by drbill on Dec 17, 2018 20:08:32 GMT -6
Yeah. Do check it out. The deal is though, at this point until they get it working smoother, if you play with tons of glisses, you're probably going to get CPU spikes. I paid $98 for it, but it was on sale 3 days ago for 28. I don't think it's still on sale, and IMO is overpriced at the standard $200 price tag.
It has a woodier, more amp-like tone that I really dig. We'll see how things work "in the track" - but that's my play it and see how it feels thoughts.
i must say that on their demos, comparing the leslie recorded version vs. the software leslie version is pretty astonishing. They even say that they aren't going to demo the software version after a couple of examples. LOL Makes sense to me though. It's a lot more work and drive space to pull off, but the real thing is something that I haven't ever captured successfully in software. Still want to get my hands on the Melda though.
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Post by popmann on Dec 17, 2018 20:33:27 GMT -6
It's actually warm hammond oil....not "tube smell". FWIW. All them metal tone wheels need lube, yo.
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Post by drbill on Dec 17, 2018 21:57:32 GMT -6
?? I don't think there's any hammond oil in all of my tube amps. Or my 2a's. And I get the same smell out of them. No doubt the hammond oil has a smell, but so do the tubes in the leslie - and I can smell it when there's no hammond within sight..... Could be dust burning off the tubes though..... Probably should be wearing a hazmat suit when I get em all fired up and smelling.....
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 17, 2018 22:20:37 GMT -6
Ugh. I always miss the good sales.
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Post by popmann on Jan 13, 2019 19:57:17 GMT -6
Just to follow up. You can fix the slur performance issues. Disable disk streaming all together for the "part" in the multi page of the UVI. Loads the whole thing into RAM. I didn't bench it to see how much more it takes, but it's not enough for me to notice...and it's only like 1gb sitting there on disk....even decompressing, I can't imagine it takes enough to matter...and when you consider it makes it fully function--slide your palm up and down alls I want while yankin' drawbars with the left...all good at what amounts to a 64sample VI buffer on the Windows box.
I was actually digging around for a way to disable the pitchbend in UVI...since Korg PB=Mod=PB=samestick….anyway--I ran acorss the option to disable the streaming all together for the part...and thought "holy shit--that will fix it" and it does.
Happy New Year.
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Post by drbill on Jan 14, 2019 11:38:33 GMT -6
The 8Dio uses Kontakt. I've gotten around a lot of the glitch / freezing issues by allocating more RAM to PT during tracking. Seems to help out immensely. Stock settings would glitch and freeze the computer on even the smallest glisses with stock settings. Due to the way that EACH drawbar is a separate sample, there are times when glisses are triggering literally HUNDREDS of voices in Kontakt. Very wild, and very taxing, but super realistic.
The library is a little glitchy sometimes switching back and forth between slow and fast leslie samples, and the interim "speed up / slow down" samples as it's not using an FX program to fake the leslie. It's using actual leslie slow / fast samples. I know they are working on streamlining this.
All that said, the 8Dio is the one that is making me smile the most right now. I still don't have the Melda Leslie plugin yet, but I prefer the 8Dio with it's real leslie samples the most right now. It sits in the track and "moves" like a real mic'd leslie does.
I still want to try the B5 through my real 122 at some point to see how that sounds. I'm guessing it would be killer. But I just haven't had the time at this point.
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