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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 16, 2016 0:11:40 GMT -6
It's been awhile since anyone posted one of these LCR threads, I do about 90% of elements LCR, but i am in no way one of those hard core dudes that won't deviate, like say Bill Whitman over at GS, his mixes sound disconnected to me in that regard, otherwise he's quite good, I was studying a bunch of 70's hits tonight, I was surprised the amount of mid panning i was hearing, a sharp contrast to everything that came before it no doubt, interesting because I personally think the 70's are responsible for some of the best recordings in history, anyone have any thoughts or compelling reasons for using LCR exclusively or not, always looking for new insights
thanx
T
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Post by wiz on Feb 16, 2016 0:20:44 GMT -6
I like LCR
I do a lot of it... but the overheads usually come in between outside and centre...
and sometimes, I make my L and R for tracks slightly inside the effects L and R...
cheers
Wiz
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Post by RicFoxx on Feb 16, 2016 6:35:37 GMT -6
Im with wiz with drums...not a big fan of drums being spread out wide. I like a killer soundstage...like I have the best seat in the house of an incredible sounding venue...no disconnects and lots of room energy with the drums just popping (I like Tony's drum mixing from what I heard of his recordings.) Vocals out front but magically glued to the band. Separation without disconnect, no big walls of sound that are all together like that blackish purple color of all colors of play-doh mixed together.
Im definitely not good enough to get this going so I don't know if LCR is the answer...Ric
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Post by Ward on Feb 16, 2016 6:44:05 GMT -6
People get banned for less than this, Tone, just saying, ole man. I mean, once you bring up LCR all over again after all the thought carnage it has caused in the past, well sir, you're just asking for trouble. I'm not saying Johnkenn or @smallbutfine or matt or cowboycoalminer are going to ban you, but people have been banned for less in some places. S'posin' we get in to 5.1 or 7.1 and start going all fLfCfRrLrCrRS etc? |
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Post by EmRR on Feb 16, 2016 7:17:38 GMT -6
I'M OUT....
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Post by svart on Feb 16, 2016 7:36:08 GMT -6
Always LCR. Your mic positioning determines the spread of your audio at that point. No biggie.
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Post by stratboy on Feb 16, 2016 7:43:41 GMT -6
I like LCR I do a lot of it... but the overheads usually come in between outside and centre... and sometimes, I make my L and R for tracks slightly inside the effects L and R... cheers Wiz I use pretty much the same approach as Wiz. Not dogmatic, but once I started LCR, I found it enforced a bit of discipline that opened up my mixes, leaving room in the center for kick and lead vocal to shine. |
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Post by mdmitch2 on Feb 16, 2016 8:57:08 GMT -6
So for you LCR guys, whaddya do when client says toms are too wide? Or whatever it may be... Stick to your guns?
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Post by drbill on Feb 16, 2016 10:31:38 GMT -6
I generally don't dig LCR panning. Un-natural sounding. My ears don't sound that way in nature.
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Post by jazznoise on Feb 16, 2016 10:43:27 GMT -6
Always LCR. Your mic positioning determines the spread of your audio at that point. No biggie. That's how I feel. If I can't hard pan my room and overhead mics, to me that implies that I set them up wrong and the stereo angle I got wasn't correct for the way the mix was going to work (that said I tend to dip the overheads about ~3dB in the centre with an M/S matrix when they're coincident and I want the drum balance to be consistent in Mono and Stereo). However things like the close mics on the toms, guitars and the backing vocal mics won't be hard panned because a) The toms aren't necessarily extreme L and R on the rest of the kit sound, b) backing vocals out that far will feel really disconnected in comparison to everything else and, c) the changes in balance depending on listening position for super hard panned stuff can be extreme, it can push musically important parts into the back. I'm currently mixing my bands next single and I've got the toms 50% L and R, backing vocals and guitars about 75% L and R. That's just the best way for me to make the mix feel cohesive. I'm happy to deviate when I need to, but the stereo spectrum has plenty of room for nothing at all. Nobody complains when the lead vocal is in the middle! |
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Post by Ward on Feb 16, 2016 10:57:33 GMT -6
Nobody complains when the lead vocal is in the middle! Says you! How about the Beatles, Geoff Emerick and Sir George? They didn't do it that way. All the vocals were on one speaker and the 'space' was on the other. And what about the lead guitarist? no self-respecting lead guitarist wants the lead vocal in the middle - that's where the lead guitar goes!  |
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Post by jazznoise on Feb 16, 2016 11:10:17 GMT -6
Nobody complains when the lead vocal is in the middle! Says you! How about the Beatles, Geoff Emerick and Sir George? They didn't do it that way. All the vocals were on one speaker and the 'space' was on the other. And what about the lead guitarist? no self-respecting lead guitarist wants the lead vocal in the middle - that's where the lead guitar goes! Hey it doesn't matter where the vocal goes then, once I'm playing my solo no one will hear it anyway  |
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Post by popmann on Feb 17, 2016 15:09:18 GMT -6
Ehh....you know--I do what I call LCR arranging.
C=bass
R=instrument 1
L=instrument 2
Has to stand up with just that....and whatever percussion....before I move on to overdubbing anything else. And those elements DO get panned LCR from the beginning. But, not much else will be L or R when I mix.
I think the benefit of LCR is that it's all in the sum signal on a technical level....and on a less technical level, I think the in betweens are easier to "hide" shit you don't like. Which is why, circling back--I do the LCR arranging. They HAVE to be played clean enough to live out there on their own. Those three elements carry the arrangement. In fact--I need to be able to mute the drums and still feel the groove. If I can't, fail. It keeps me from just stacking up half baked ideas and then sorting through them at mix time trying to make it cohesive. It's like building "mix balance" from the source.
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Post by Ward on Feb 18, 2016 8:11:02 GMT -6
Steve Albini mixes in RCL.
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Post by jdc on Feb 18, 2016 9:15:17 GMT -6
I usually use the Waves Maserati LCR plug in for ULTIMATE WIDTH because everyone knows itb panning sounds wider and better :-P
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Post by Quint on Feb 18, 2016 21:47:51 GMT -6
100% LCR on my end. Use faders to adjust, which "can" create a bit of variable spread. I really prefer the three option scenario. I like not having to reduce one side while I'm forced to equally increase the other side.
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Post by EmRR on Feb 18, 2016 21:58:06 GMT -6
The variables of speaker placement dissolve all this voodoo into nothingness.
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Post by EmRR on Feb 18, 2016 22:02:01 GMT -6
100% LCR on my end. Use faders to adjust, which "can" create a bit of variable spread. I really prefer the three option scenario. I like not having to reduce one side while I'm forced to equally increase the other side. I don't understand the mechanics of this statement. Sounds like....panning. |
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Post by EmRR on Feb 18, 2016 22:05:12 GMT -6
So everyone records everything either in mono with strict L C R placement in mind, or in stereo with exact placement predetermined by the mic placement? Including a lack of adjustment of MS width?
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Post by EmRR on Feb 18, 2016 22:08:09 GMT -6
As Sir Bob has said, the premise at one point was that pan pots sounded crappy compared to direct bussing. I think those days are gone. Yet vinyl mastering frequently diminished width for cutting/stamping safety reasons.
Previous to that was the fact there was no pan pot to begin with.
I would question the use of C altogether, given the destructive nature of multi-spaeker playback. Mono is always best with one speaker. : )
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Post by EmRR on Feb 18, 2016 22:10:33 GMT -6
Do we like vintage constant impedance stepped pan pots? Are they superior?
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Post by EmRR on Feb 18, 2016 22:12:11 GMT -6
I'm all in if we're mixing on two properly placed Klipshorns and a La Scala.
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Post by EmRR on Feb 18, 2016 22:15:05 GMT -6
I generally don't dig LCR panning. Un-natural sounding. My ears don't sound that way in nature. I dig it when it's arranged for it in the first place. Which is rare. Someone passed me some 'hot shot remixes' for critique, and the guy is an LCR fanatic. Mounted tom and floor tom being hard L and R only sounds really dumb to me. |
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Post by Quint on Feb 18, 2016 22:17:39 GMT -6
100% LCR on my end. Use faders to adjust, which "can" create a bit of variable spread. I really prefer the three option scenario. I like not having to reduce one side while I'm forced to equally increase the other side. I don't understand the mechanics of this statement. Sounds like....panning. I like it because there's less phase shit to worry about and I don't have to deal with "less of one makes more of the other" situations. There are busses and they either go here or they go there. Done. At least that's how it used to be done.... Maybe I like it because I don't tend to record drums super wide to begin with. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 18, 2016 22:19:20 GMT -6
I followed Tony's suggestion a long time back regarding my trying LCR mixing. It helped the mix I was struggling with considerably.
Since then, I use the idea of LCR as my starting point now. Often, I have one guitar L, one R, vocal C. Sometimes I move things in a just a little, like .51 to .45. instead of 60, (max), because it just sounds a little more natural. That sometimes helps me not feel like guitars are on the far edge of a stage instead of being on the same stage, just left and right sides.
I've yet to learn how to move instruments around without actually panning between center and one side or the other. I know there are some cool techniques using delay's, but they're over my head right now.
Once I have some basic guitar tracks done, with a guide vocal, I typically add bass (C), Drums (C), using verb to put them behind the vocalist, with maybe a very slight panning of individual drums to create what you would see if watching a drummer, where you can hear slight directionality of high hats and toms.
Then I break the rule by putting one or two instruments LC or RC, between .30 or .45 . It seems to give those instruments there own space. I try to create a live soundstage. I realize that's kind of pedestrian, but I'm one guy at home with some great collaborators pitching in with some parts, so it's one step at a time for me, rather than having the pleasure of musicians playing together in the same room.
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