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Post by mrholmes on Sept 19, 2015 9:08:42 GMT -6
Hi all.
This one goes to all who often track dreadnoughts.
I would say I learned over the past decade how to pick up a steel string guitar.
I am not an expert in it, but the learning curve was steep.
Most of the time I am fine with my output.
But Dreadnoughts always need some EQ treatment special cutting the low end.
Is that your experience too?
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Post by jazznoise on Sept 19, 2015 9:25:23 GMT -6
Yes, especially with heavy strummers they put out whopping low end and unless the guitar is frigging fantastic you usually need to do a little management around the port frequency range. With some cheaper guitars this can mean painful amounts of multibanding.
The easy solution is to use an omni microphone or pull your mic back. If neither is an option playing lighter can help excite the port less.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 19, 2015 9:35:51 GMT -6
Yes, especially with heavy strummers they put out whopping low end and unless the guitar is frigging fantastic you usually need to do a little management around the port frequency range. With some cheaper guitars this can mean painful amounts of multibanding. The easy solution is to use an omni microphone or pull your mic back. If neither is an option playing lighter can help excite the port less. Most often cutting with the EQ helps a lot, but may its an option to use lighter base strings when tracking?? Or just going back to the OM---- Thanks for your fast response... |
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Post by Randge on Sept 19, 2015 9:48:49 GMT -6
I spend a great deal of time recording them. Micing back about a foot helps the bottom end load up and not using LDC's is my personal taste. I use pencils and ribbons mostly. I do a top and bottom (of the neck) approach on the 10-12th fret back about a foot on boomy guitars and a Royer 122 over the players shoulder. This vid (below) might give you something to try at your place. We probably miced a bit too far away in this particular recording and since we were all in the room, we embraced the bleed that happened. The grassers expect a tight sound with lots of punch in the low mids. There is no eq or compression on any of those tracks.
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Post by jazznoise on Sept 19, 2015 9:57:19 GMT -6
Shit hot as usual!
I'll get me a Royer one of these days...
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Post by Randge on Sept 19, 2015 10:03:13 GMT -6
Here is a better view of what I am talking about with the over /under micing style. I just add the Royer in to give a player perspective to the sound. It's really a combo of Bil Vorndick and Gary Paczosa's techniques that I have learned while recording with them both.
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 19, 2015 10:54:11 GMT -6
My 2 cents, i dig the 2 mic over the shoulder tech a lot, i like to use LDC's and lots of distance, sometimes up to 2 feet if the room is good and quiet, IMO the most important thing to do when you're recording an acoustic in isolation, is to have that super quiet, great sounding room, if set up well it will interact with the guitar and excite it in all the right ways, distance equals depth with mics as always, and that distance goes a long way toward eliminating the boom dreadnoughts are infamous for, beyond a great guitar/player, virtually all of the eq should happen with the mic choice, placement, and gobo placement in creating/capturing that great sounding room, the only thing i usually do with an electronic eq is filter off the very bottom.
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 19, 2015 10:56:41 GMT -6
Yes, especially with heavy strummers they put out whopping low end and unless the guitar is frigging fantastic you usually need to do a little management around the port frequency range. With some cheaper guitars this can mean painful amounts of multibanding. The easy solution is to use an omni microphone or pull your mic back. If neither is an option playing lighter can help excite the port less. Most often cutting with the EQ helps a lot, but may its an option to use lighter base strings when tracking?? Or just going back to the OM---- Thanks for your fast response... I've used 11's before on guitars for busy mixes, it helps a lot with the boom factor, the problem is that guitars are usually set up for a certain gauge string, and when you change that setup tension across the guitar, things start to get weird with tuning and intonation ime. |
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 19, 2015 15:07:43 GMT -6
My home studio room is less than ideal but with its turnable abfusors far from bad.....
This is a clasical recording played by an ex student who turned to study classical guitar.
I used one UMT 70 in cardiod pattern about 1,5 meters away placed about where the neck meets the body.
It was the players decission to put artificial reverb on top.
I read many years ago from that over the shoulder way, but nver used it, maybe next time.
My question was aleeady answerd by the first respond, but thanks for all the other information.
BTW if I track steelstring for pop music I most often use dynamics very close and tend to use eq like hell... I like that close sound for pop.o
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Post by gabehizer on Sept 19, 2015 17:45:26 GMT -6
Do you reverse the phase of the over-the-shoulder mic, as recommended in the Miktek booklet included with their mics?
Gabriel
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Post by Randge on Sept 19, 2015 18:02:53 GMT -6
Welcome, Gabriel! I use my Royer badge backwards, which is the bright side, so I have to reverse the polarity when tracking it.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 19, 2015 18:52:48 GMT -6
Do you reverse the phase of the over-the-shoulder mic, as recommended in the Miktek booklet included with their mics? Gabriel Welcome, gabehizer! |
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 20, 2015 3:39:41 GMT -6
Randge why do you use a ribbon for micing over the shoulder? Second question is, when using more than one microphone I always dislike even minimum phase cancelation, how do you deal with that...
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Post by Randge on Sept 20, 2015 7:03:13 GMT -6
AutoAlign is a beautiful tool for polishing phase issues. The Royer is right where the player's ear is hearing the guitar. It is a major sweet spot. It's what the guitar sounds like to them when they are playing it, therefore, players tend to love the sound of it blended together. Ribbons, when handled correctly, are the most natural sounding of all the microphones. Give it a try and see if you don't agree. Don't be afraid to high pass filter it higher than you'd think. There have been times when I hp filtered up to 350 with a very gentle slope to get what I was after. Before I boost any top end, I try filtering first. I do my best to either phase align by eye or null the ribbon to the other Mics depending on what I am going for. It's a multi-mic setup and it's all subjective to the needs of the song and the engineering taste. From there, I use AutoAlign and can visually see the phase and make it perfectly in phase or make it out a little bit to place the guitar in the mix as needed.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 20, 2015 22:52:15 GMT -6
Great posts guys. I wish I could be in a good sounding quiet room again for tracking. Where I live, there are two huge engine rooms below me, plus a laundry room, plus the elevator motors nearby. Nothing I can do can eliminate that much noise. I live in a rental apartment, so there's only so much I'm allowed to do.
I used to have the most incredible dreadnought I'd ever heard. I found that using the Neumann K84 was basically foolproof. All I needed to do was put it back far enough to find the sweet spot. I've been guilty of putting the mic too close many times, because I'm a sucker for that sound.
I get into trouble every time I try two mics, and end of keeping just one of the tracks.. I guess I'll have to learn how to handle phase issues now.. ugh.. When I did keep the second mic track, I usually ended up using it like an EQ, just blending in a little to taste.
My friend has a Cascade Vin-jet with the AMI transformer, do you think it's worth borrowing, or is my Blackspade UM-17B as good or better?
Recently I experimented with different pickup patterns for the first time. I tried a track with my Blackspade set to an omni setting, then I did a different song with a setting halfway between cardioid and omni, and it sounded better to me. I just wanted a little wider sound for a track that was basically solo guitar and voice.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Sept 21, 2015 2:16:15 GMT -6
Great posts guys. I wish I could be in a good sounding quiet room again for tracking. Where I live, there are two huge engine rooms below me, plus a laundry room, plus the elevator motors nearby. Nothing I can do can eliminate that much noise. I live in a rental apartment, so there's only so much I'm allowed to do. I used to have the most incredible dreadnought I'd ever heard. I found that using the Neumann K84 was basically foolproof. All I needed to do was put it back far enough to find the sweet spot. I've been guilty of putting the mic too close many times, because I'm a sucker for that sound. I get into trouble every time I try two mics, and end of keeping just one of the tracks.. I guess I'll have to learn how to handle phase issues now.. ugh.. When I did keep the second mic track, I usually ended up using it like an EQ, just blending in a little to taste. My friend has a Cascade Vin-jet with the AMI transformer, do you think it's worth borrowing, or is my Blackspade UM-17B as good or better? Recently I experimented with different pickup patterns for the first time. I tried a track with my Blackspade set to an omni setting, then I did a different song with a setting halfway between cardioid and omni, and it sounded better to me. I just wanted a little wider sound for a track that was basically solo guitar and voice. Different not better, try the ribbon so you have a different point of referance ! But in the right room I say try a nice omni! |
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Sept 21, 2015 5:35:10 GMT -6
I've been getting some really good results on acoustic lately after much trial and error. I honestly feel like matched pairs of mics and pres are harder to record. So lately I've been using 1 ribbon to the right of the sound hole (from players perspective) about 2 1/2' back, and either and LDC or a pencil on the neck at about the same distance. Gain match and flip phase on the ribbon.
It is a perfect balance because the ribbon channel brings out the low end of instrument naturally without being boomy, and the LDC the high end without being harsh. Soloing either of these channels sounds pretty nasty actually, but blended together for stereo, they sound great.
I've been using the r-84/ U47 combo. I've got a Royer coming and look forward to trying it as well.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Sept 21, 2015 5:43:32 GMT -6
I spend a great deal of time recording them. Micing back about a foot helps the bottom end load up and not using LDC's is my personal taste. I use pencils and ribbons mostly. I do a top and bottom (of the neck) approach on the 10-12th fret back about a foot on boomy guitars and a Royer 122 over the players shoulder. This vid (below) might give you something to try at your place. We probably miced a bit too far away in this particular recording and since we were all in the room, we embraced the bleed that happened. The grassers expect a tight sound with lots of punch in the low mids. There is no eq or compression on any of those tracks. Hey, Randy, this is kind of an unfair example. I could record Clay playing into an iPhone and it would sound great  |
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Post by deepdark on Sept 21, 2015 6:29:01 GMT -6
One way I succes recording dreadnought guitar (Taylor) is to put the microphone at the headstock, off axis point down to the microphone body and about 4 to 6 inches of the headstock. That way, I minimise the low end, and accentuate the highs.
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Post by Randge on Sept 21, 2015 7:01:55 GMT -6
 That is quite true, Cowboy, but that video was mostly for how I do it, not who I do it to! Clay is a beast, no doubt.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 21, 2015 7:11:38 GMT -6
That is quite true, Cowboy, but that video was mostly for how I do it, not who I do it to! Clay is a beast, no doubt. [b Thee shall always appreciate the fact that thee gets to work with talented people and get paid for doing so ! |
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Post by Randge on Sept 21, 2015 8:36:32 GMT -6
That is quite true, Cowboy, but that video was mostly for how I do it, not who I do it to! Clay is a beast, no doubt. [b Thee shall always appreciate the fact that thee gets to work with talented people and get paid for doing so ! Absolutely blessed in that dept, Eric! |
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Post by dandeurloo on Sept 24, 2015 18:05:24 GMT -6
What is the mic on the banjo in the AK US video?
Gary Paczosa's one of the all time best. Dang he gets great stuff.
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Post by forgotteng on Oct 5, 2015 19:44:14 GMT -6
So much of this is good mic placement according to the tone of the guitar and how the player attacks it. That being said for a training exercise I set up an Avenson ST-02 omni mic instead of a LDC and I really liked the focus it gave. I'm often surprised when an omni works when I thought it wouldn't.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 5, 2015 19:53:35 GMT -6
So much of this is good mic placement according to the tone of the guitar and how the player attacks it. That being said for a training exercise I set up an Avenson ST-02 omni mic instead of a LDC and I really liked the focus it gave. I'm often surprised when an omni works when I thought it wouldn't. Yes my man! The thing you must remember is omnibus ideally means linearity that is your focus! |
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