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Post by mdmitch2 on May 8, 2015 14:04:31 GMT -6
If you insist on doing all this at once call war at Zen pro Audio. I would love to see what he would do, I picture a 500 series's rack full of goodies and a rack full of Warm ! +1 on this.... Zen Pro won't steer you wrong... and those B-stock PSI monitors they have now would be worth checking into. Spend the most on monitoring IMO. I believe they also do custom PC's which I'm sure will save you a lot versus the sweetwater recommendations.
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Post by svart on May 8, 2015 14:17:29 GMT -6
If you insist on doing all this at once call war at Zen pro Audio. I would love to see what he would do, I picture a 500 series's rack full of goodies and a rack full of Warm ! +1 on this.... Zen Pro won't steer you wrong... and those B-stock PSI monitors they have now would be worth checking into. Spend the most on monitoring IMO. I believe they also do custom PC's which I'm sure will save you a lot versus the sweetwater recommendations. Absolutely true about monitoring. If I had to do it all over again, I'd buy better monitors first. You have to be able to hear everything you are doing. I bought mics and preamps and never understood why professional equipment like that never sounded much different from the cheap stuff... And nothing every translated. Dumbass me just kept buying gear while listening to the same junk monitors.
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Post by carymiller on May 8, 2015 16:00:13 GMT -6
+1 on this.... Zen Pro won't steer you wrong... and those B-stock PSI monitors they have now would be worth checking into. Spend the most on monitoring IMO. I believe they also do custom PC's which I'm sure will save you a lot versus the sweetwater recommendations. Absolutely true about monitoring. If I had to do it all over again, I'd buy better monitors first. You have to be able to hear everything you are doing. I bought mics and preamps and never understood why professional equipment like that never sounded much different from the cheap stuff... And nothing every translated. Dumbass me just kept buying gear while listening to the same junk monitors. Zen Pro is a pleasure to deal with, and so is Warren...we don't always 100% agree on matters of taste, but we do more often than not hear things in lock step. Hell he's probably "right" when I'm "wrong" more often than not since he does nothing but test gear all day every day. Where we part ways is usually on matters of taste which are subtle...so it's not a big thing. He's a class act when it comes to picking brains and buying gear...however I can do a lot on my own without a dealer these days, so it's less of an issue than it used to be for me to just do some research on best way to get to where I need to be. When I do need a dealer though he's usually one of my first round draft picks to buy from...Full Compass Audio being the other one mainly because they each carry certain lines the other doesn't.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 8, 2015 16:07:40 GMT -6
Until your your tastes dialed in, Warm Audio is one of the best buys around. Just get the WA76, don't even think on it, and if you wanna splurge, the EQP-WA
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Post by mdmitch2 on May 8, 2015 16:37:15 GMT -6
Absolutely true about monitoring. If I had to do it all over again, I'd buy better monitors first. You have to be able to hear everything you are doing. I bought mics and preamps and never understood why professional equipment like that never sounded much different from the cheap stuff... And nothing every translated. Dumbass me just kept buying gear while listening to the same junk monitors. Zen Pro is a pleasure to deal with, and so is Warren...we don't always 100% agree on matters of taste, but we do more often than not hear things in lock step. Hell he's probably "right" when I'm "wrong" more often than not since he does nothing but test gear all day every day. One other plus of ZenPro is they carry GIK acoustics, which are hands down the best panels for the money. Furthermore, GIK will help you set up your room for free. Years ago when I was getting started, I sent them pics and drawings of my room, and they were extremely helpful in making a plan to get the best treatment within my budget. And their lead acoustical engineer, Bryan Pape, has helped me several times over the years when I've changed rooms and needed to figure out how to make best use of my panels. www.gikacoustics.com/contact/Lastly, the single most important reason to buy from ZenPro is the huge bag of Zen Blend coffee you're sure to get if you spend $20k! If you don't like coffee, I'm taking any and all Zen Blend donations. Seriously, I want your Zen Blend... anyone reading this, please send me your Zen Blend coffee. I need it.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on May 8, 2015 17:06:18 GMT -6
Zen Pro is a pleasure to deal with, and so is Warren...we don't always 100% agree on matters of taste, but we do more often than not hear things in lock step. Hell he's probably "right" when I'm "wrong" more often than not since he does nothing but test gear all day every day. One other plus of ZenPro is they carry GIK acoustics, which are hands down the best panels for the money. Furthermore, GIK will help you set up your room for free. Years ago when I was getting started, I sent them pics and drawings of my room, and they were extremely helpful in making a plan to get the best treatment within my budget. And their lead acoustical engineer, Bryan Pape, has helped me several times over the years when I've changed rooms and needed to figure out how to make best use of my panels. www.gikacoustics.com/contact/Lastly, the single most important reason to buy from ZenPro is the huge bag of Zen Blend coffee you're sure to get if you spend $20k! If you don't like coffee, I'm taking any and all Zen Blend donations. Seriously, I want your Zen Blend... anyone reading this, please send me your Zen Blend coffee. I need it. There's a 12 step program for that Step 1 Order more gear from Warren Step 2-12 keep repeating!
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Post by mdmitch2 on May 8, 2015 17:16:34 GMT -6
Lastly, the single most important reason to buy from ZenPro is the huge bag of Zen Blend coffee you're sure to get if you spend $20k! If you don't like coffee, I'm taking any and all Zen Blend donations. Seriously, I want your Zen Blend... anyone reading this, please send me your Zen Blend coffee. I need it. There's a 12 step program for that Step 1 Order more gear from Warren Step 2-12 keep repeating! Exactly! I'm just worried my wife will figure out that all of my studio expenditures have just been an elaborate (and very expensive) scheme to get more of my favorite coffee.
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Post by Guitar on May 8, 2015 21:15:01 GMT -6
man, this thread is headed for disaster. So much good advice, none of it heeded. I half expect the poster to come back in and say he ordered the sweetwater list. Bad, bad direction that's heading in. If the original poster has any sense at all, I don't think he's really reading these responses. Too much money, not enough time, or something strange like that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 21:49:56 GMT -6
man, this thread is headed for disaster. So much good advice, none of it heeded. I half expect the poster to come back in and say he ordered the sweetwater list. Let's say it would not particularly surprise me, things like this happen, but i honestly hope it's not happening!
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Post by drbill on May 8, 2015 22:36:56 GMT -6
Everybody's gotta learn somehow. The best lessons are learned by the worst mistakes.....
But I think the OP just said he'd been busy.... So maybe he's good to go.
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Post by mdmitch2 on May 9, 2015 0:24:01 GMT -6
Everybody's gotta learn somehow. On that note, did the OP say if he was planning on being the AE for this studio, and if he had any recording/mixing background? Seems like a large amount of money to spend if you don't even know if you'll like the work that will be involved. I don't mean to be discouraging, but not everyone has the patience or disposition to spend hours automating or pitch correcting a vocal, or manually editing drum tracks, or listening to the same 2 seconds of a song on a loop trying to figure out where a weird noise is coming from......... this is often very tedious work. I don't think most people would want to do it if they really knew what was involved. (Of course, this may not apply as much if you're just trying to make demos or non commercial music).
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Post by M57 on May 9, 2015 5:02:16 GMT -6
This has been a great informative (and entertaining) thread. Though I still have to admit - From the start I have been, and am still skeptical about the poster.
Just googled Full Sail U. Looks like he's spent a hell of a lot more than 20k allegedly learning his craft and obtaining a production degree of some sort. With that kind of investment, you would think he would be getting at least some advice/support from the school/faculty, and/or has at least has made a few contacts with folks in the industry. If he's not a troll, he's definitely young, yet it's hard to believe he doesn't have some equipment that he's not telling us about. He still hasn't given us but a smidgin of information about whats and whys, and the the information he has given us doesn't add up. He wants to record drums horns and vocals - apparently with one mic. Surely the Sweetwater salesperson asked a few questions before slapping that list together. Maybe he's not very adept at articulating his situation, but I doubt it. Without additional information, there's no way anyone here can give any half-decent purchasing advice (imho). Regardless, apparently when someone posts looking for advice on how to spend a decent chunk of change, people start to fall all over themselves.
Reading this makes me want to start a 'hypothetical' thread with a very specific scenario, very specific needs outlined, and maybe one or two price points. I know it's been done before on a thousand different threads on hundreds of sites, but the range of knowledge, experience and expertise of the current membership here is pretty amazing.
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Post by carymiller on May 9, 2015 5:18:24 GMT -6
This has been a great informative (and entertaining) thread. Though I still have to admit - From the start I have been, and am still skeptical about the poster. Just googled Full Sail U. Looks like he's spent a hell of a lot more than 20k allegedly learning his craft and obtaining a production degree of some sort. With that kind of investment, you would think he would be getting advice/support has from the school/faculty, or has at least has made a few contacts with folks in the industry. If he's not a troll, he's definitely young, yet it's hard to believe he doesn't have some equipment that he's not telling us about. He still hasn't given us but a smidgin of information about whats and whys, and the the information he has given us doesn't add up. He wants to record drums horns and vocals - apparently with one mic. Surely the Sweetwater salesperson asked a few questions before slapping that list together. Maybe he's not very adept at articulating his situation, but I doubt it. Without additional information, there's no way anyone here can give any half-decent purchasing advice (imho). Regardless, apparently when someone posts looking for advice on how to spend a decent chunk of change, people start to fall all over themselves. Reading this makes me want to start a 'hypothetical' thread with a very specific scenario, very specific needs outlined, and maybe one or two price points. I know it's been done before on a thousand different threads on hundreds of sites, but the range of knowledge, experience and expertise of the current membership here is pretty amazing. University's teach signal flow, and the basics in terminology, old school studio work ethic, and the history of the business...you make some connections, you hopefully develop some decent habits and learn how to sell your personality, but it's not the same thing as ear training and gaining experience with a large variety of equipment in sessions. Nor is it the same thing as eventually developing your own signature sound as professional. They will introduce mixing and mastering as concepts, but no one in those faculties is going to teach people real tricks of the trade as the people who run and develop curriculum are old school engineers who have migrated to teaching and administration. To them...the well-guarded trade secrets and clandestine "wow" factor moments that justify the expense of hiring engineers at the highest level of success and visibility, simply aren't mean to be shared with the public. It's a matter of professional curtesy and maintaining mystique. Conversely...people do in fact NEED mentors to become great mixing and mastering engineers. There's far too much secret sauce, electrical engineering...and even physics of sound to ignore. Not to mention coding now that digital is more common than analog in most setups. If there isn't someone helping you with understanding how to blend even cursory knowledge of it all into a workflow that will make sense, you'll never get to that point where you're worth hiring. It's a transitional time...and while I appreciate that these schools can be good for new kids who can't find internships...invariably most engineering schools for recording require internships to complete your degree. The biggest issue we face are many young and bright...and even talented people, who don't have an economic ladder to climb in the industry anymore...training for internships and even paying a large amount of money to do so in advance. Who never gain insight on the context of pro work environments...nor are they well informed of the stressors behind how hard it is to survive in this business. Half the kids don't really know what they're signing up for...and they they market themselves as being able to do it all, tracking, audio production/arrangement, mixing, and mastering...without the experience of developing even one part of the craft under the guiding hand of a real mentor who's done fantastic work. The truth is we all have strengths and weaknesses, and symbiotic relationships with people who are better at certain parts of the process always tend to create teams around the best projects. But everyone is making burger flipping money and fighting over table scraps to get worked to death. Yes it's good that he wants to get some gear, but the guy needs some hands on conversation about it. more so than conjecture on a message board. There's tons of factors including his own personal ambitions and tastes that should be accounted for before you even get into how to put together the best equipment for cheap. What I'm shocked about concerning Full Sale and other schools of their ilk though...is that they don't force their kids to learn about electrical engineering and tech work...that's always optional, when it's absolutely vital, expensive, and a real technical skill potential mentors on the artistic side of the coin never take for granted. Lastly...I totally agree with your statement about a singular mic (and a terrible, generic choice for that matter) being on that list...it's not feasible to track drums that way...and either he's young and no one is challenging him to be a problem solver, or he really does need a hell of a lot more guidance in the matter than he should considering what he's spent at that school. On the flip side he hasn't contacted me again yet (though he's welcoe to), even after I made myself available yesterday. One thing you learn in pro studios...doing the work while working your way up...that when people offer to help you hands on, you don't keep those dudes waiting, but again he's probably young. =P
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Post by swurveman on May 9, 2015 6:50:49 GMT -6
I just saw the Sweetwater quote. I live in Indiana. So, I don't use them because I have to pay a 6% sales tax. But my God, a TLM 103? Is there a more limited LDC condenser microphone? Really makes me wonder if they have tons sitting on shelves and are hoping some uninformed buyer gets their inventory down. The same goes for the Presonous Reference Monitor. And all that money on computer stuff. smh They gave him terrible advice.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 9, 2015 8:52:32 GMT -6
I've never used them just heard some things, but I think he could do worse than buying any Mojave for less than the Neumann 103.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 16, 2015 9:12:09 GMT -6
If you must get a Neumann sound, until you can afford to spend $1600-$2,500, buy this at $149: This way you'l have some time to sort yourself out, without spending too much on the wrong mic. That Guage USA sounds better than the TLM-103, believe me. www.gauge-usa.com/Gauge_Microphones/Home.htmlIt can fool the ear into thinking you have a U87, I've used a U87 for a decade, and this thing's close. Now, don't get me wrong, when you begin to notice more details, you'll want something much better, like a Mojave, Blackspade, ( all available under $1,000), hell, even the Cascade Vin-Jet is a pro sound if you get the one with the AMI transformer, and that's around $350. My friend just did 3 Americana tracks with it, and they're flawless, though highly colored, in a good way though, if you like that flavor.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 16, 2015 11:17:32 GMT -6
I've intercut a Beyer M-88 with an 87 and nobody could tell.
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Post by Ward on May 16, 2015 11:44:26 GMT -6
I've intercut a Beyer M-88 with an 87 and nobody could tell. Not everyone's you, Bob!
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 16, 2015 11:58:21 GMT -6
I was shocked that it worked. The M88 vocal was live in a small room with drums. A friend told me A&M had replaced all of their 57s with M-88s so I tried it.
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Post by tonycamphd on May 16, 2015 14:30:47 GMT -6
I was shocked that it worked. The M88 vocal was live in a small room with drums. A friend told me A&M had replaced all of their 57s with M-88s so I tried it. in the context of a mix, i'm not really surprised by this, especially considering your formidable skill set Mr O 8)
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Post by Guitar on May 16, 2015 17:39:28 GMT -6
M88TG is a real contender on vocals. It's a Beyerdynamic so you don't hear much talk about it. But it's as good or better than an SM7B, RE20, or what-have-you. It's just big and open at the same time, I'm not surprised it gets confused for a condenser.
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Post by tubbsax on May 19, 2015 10:04:40 GMT -6
If you must get a Neumann sound, until you can afford to spend $1600-$2,500, buy this at $149: This way you'l have some time to sort yourself out, without spending too much on the wrong mic. That Guage USA sounds better than the TLM-103, believe me. www.gauge-usa.com/Gauge_Microphones/Home.htmlIt can fool the ear into thinking you have a U87, I've used a U87 for a decade, and this thing's close. Now, don't get me wrong, when you begin to notice more details, you'll want something much better, like a Mojave, Blackspade, ( all available under $1,000), hell, even the Cascade Vin-Jet is a pro sound if you get the one with the AMI transformer, and that's around $350. My friend just did 3 Americana tracks with it, and they're flawless, though highly colored, in a good way though, if you like that flavor.
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Post by tubbsax on May 19, 2015 10:07:19 GMT -6
MJB, those gauge mics are awesome one of my friends use them in his studio. They really sound great and for the money you can't really beat it!
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 19, 2015 11:03:44 GMT -6
Yep, for someone getting started, they make for a nice presentation, and will buy you some time to sort out your own sounds and needs. You can always sell them a bit later for $50 less than you paid, and consider it a rental! But, you might want to keep them around at that price just in case.
They're especially nice if you need a few extra mics. Give them a decent preamp, EQ a little, and they're OK, Chinese crispy, but really decent, and equal to or better to any of the $500-$600 Chinese design variations I've heard.
I'm thinking of getting their little pencil SDC, and the seeing if Sinsay can mod them. I love, love, love the Neumann K84, but I can't borrow my friend's forever ;-)
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Post by svart on May 19, 2015 11:23:04 GMT -6
Man that M88 is pricey for a dynamic. I'd love to try it, but damn.
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