|
Post by jmoose on Aug 10, 2022 13:45:32 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by jmoose on Aug 10, 2022 13:46:06 GMT -6
-------------------
The audiophile world has been set ablaze recently, when Mike Esposito, the owner of a Phoenix record shop called "In" Groove, exposed Mobile Fidelity, a Californian record company.
In a YouTube video, the music aficionado said that "reliable sources" reported to him that MoFi had been using digital files on their expensive re-issues that are branded as only using the original analog tapes.
Esposito's video generated controversy, with many high-profile audiophiles denouncing his claims as "illegitimate". Shane Buettner, owner of Intervention Records, even mentioned that he knew the MoFi re-issuing protocol from a staff engineer, calling the process "legit".
However, the record store owner was onto something, and shortly after he posted his incendiary video, he was invited by MoFi's executive vice president of product development John Wood to travel to California and visit the company.
Esposito's tour resulted in a second video, from July 20, when MoFi's engineers confirmed that the company had, indeed, not been transparent about its practices.
This follow-up video sparked a wave of outrage among audiophiles, taking into account MoFi's longtime support of analog qualities over digital recordings.
Several reactions showed disappointment in the company's policies, with audiophiles saying:
"They were completely deceitful. I never would have ordered a single Mobile Fidelity product if I had known it was sourced from a digital master."
"It's the biggest debacle I've ever seen in the vinyl realm." MoFi and its parent company, Music Direct, recently reacted to the controversy in an interview with The Washington Post. The record label claimed that it used Direct Stream Digital technology (DSD) for the first time in 2011 on a re-issue of Tony Bennet's "I Left My Heart in San Francisco", with the technique encompassing 60% of all vinyl releases in MoFi by the end of that year.
MoFi's chief marketing officer Syd Schwartz apologized to fans in the name of the company, saying:
"Mobile Fidelity makes great records, the best-sounding records that you can buy. There had been choices made over the years and choices in marketing that have led to confusion and anger and a lot of questions, and there were narratives that had been propagating for a while that were untrue or false or myths. We were wrong not to have addressed this sooner." Part of the marketing appeal of MoFi records is that most releases include a banner revealing an "Original Master Recording". And for the company's One-Step production chain, which reportedly gets the sound closer to the original tape, even includes a step-by-step explanation sheet of the whole process.
However, in this guide, MoFi omitted a digital step. Doubts about the legitimacy of the One-Step process started to arise when earlier this year MoFi announced a re-issue of Michael Jackson's "Thriller" using this method.
Due to the high number of predicted copies, which was estimated on 40,000, a German audiophile wondered on his YouTube channel how the label could allow this when it would mean a huge degradation rate of the original master tape (You can see a summary of the reported One-Step process below).
Esposito claimed that he never intended to cause such a controversy, his main aim was to raise awareness for the need of accurate labelling regarding recording sources at a time when vinyl is making a comeback:
"The problem is 'analog' has become a hype word, and most people don't know how records are made. And you can very factually say this record was sourced from the original analog master tape, and you're not lying. But that doesn't disclose to the consumer what's going on between the beginning of it and the final product." Regardless of the morals behind it, this issue sparks once more the topic of the quality of analog vs digital recordings. Jamie Howarth, who has earned praise for his sound restoration on Neil Young and Bruce Springsteen re-issues by using digital technology, discussed the stigma of including a digital step in the process of re-issuing:
"One of the reasons they want to excoriate MoFi is for lying. The other part that bothers them is that they've been listening to digital all along and they're highly invested in believing that any digital step will destroy their experience. And they're wrong." MoFi has now added a DSD step on their upcoming One-Step sheets, in hopes of making their process more transparent to all audiophiles.
How about you? Do you prefer analog recordings, digital, or do you believe that it doesn't make any difference? Let us know in the comments below.
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Aug 10, 2022 14:08:34 GMT -6
Pretty funny, exasperating, etc.
I love these listeners standards by which they will never listen to any music going forward, because of the tech. Someone should have told me to kill myself long ago.
|
|
|
Post by skav on Aug 10, 2022 14:25:53 GMT -6
Interesting. Does this mean many listeners got their bubble burst?
|
|
|
Post by svart on Aug 10, 2022 14:50:07 GMT -6
Interesting. Does this mean many listeners got their bubble burst? If nobody had told them, they would have never known it wasn't analog somewhere up the chain. Kinda funny actually.
|
|
|
Post by plinker on Aug 10, 2022 14:59:21 GMT -6
Interesting. Does this mean many listeners got their bubble burst? If nobody had told them, they would have never known it wasn't analog somewhere up the chain. Kinda funny actually. “Man, listen to this analog and tell me that digital could possibly sound better! You can really feel the warmth.”
|
|
|
Post by sirthought on Aug 10, 2022 15:12:53 GMT -6
What they did with the transfers wasn't wrong. The marketing was, but I don't know how the digital transfer would really mess up the experience in this case. It's not like the customer was getting a bad product.
I also don't know how a purely digital process would really mess up the experience.
I've worked in radio, concert promotion, writing/recording, and pro audio/video for years, and I've never understood audiophiles and the money they pump into their media and gear. I mean, engineers might buy higher detail headphones or monitors for critically analyzing the audio. But for listening? I never have gotten too hung up on any of it.
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Aug 10, 2022 15:32:51 GMT -6
Ive read there hasn’t been a true analog record cut in decades, since Neumann came up with the digital step in their cutters. So I’d never expect new stuff to be.
Oh man that’s so sad from the consumer’s perspective. Being told it’s true to the art, but it’s just more putting the money before the art. They could have explained themselves but that’s not what people want! They want a true analog experience, warts and all in my experience.
All they had to do was make a few tape copies of the master tape, which would be preferred from the consumer aspect. Not exactly the easiest thing these days with tape machine health being what it is.. but for the price they charge, seems reasonable! Then they could cut from the copies worry free.
Makes me wonder if they even have 1 working deck to pull the digital file from. If the deck can only get halfway through a song, you can digitally edit together a full track in PCM and later convert to DSD. smh
|
|
|
Post by jmoose on Aug 10, 2022 16:14:06 GMT -6
All they had to do was make a few tape copies of the master tape, which would be preferred from the consumer aspect. Not exactly the easiest thing these days with tape machine health being what it is.. but for the price they charge, seems reasonable! Then they could cut from the copies worry free. Makes me wonder if they even have 1 working deck to pull the digital file from. If the deck can only get halfway through a song, you can digitally edit together a full track in PCM and later convert to DSD. smh I haven't watched the utoob video in question... the one with the staff engineers but I want to. And with full disclosure I've never purchased one of their releases... nor really ever looked into their process or anything. Not a vinyl guy. I'm simply amused by the whole thing. Based on the post article I assume they have fully functional tape decks & other gear in house. Seems like at the core, boil it all down and they're in the preservation/restoration business. The output is dedicated... not mastering for 17 formats like a general "for hire" cat. Its all vinyl. General takeaway from the post was something like - They either get analog masters couriered in and do the transfer in house... or if the label won't release the tapes but grants access & permissions? They'll take some kind of mobile rig and transfer the tapes on site, wherever the reels happen to be. To me? That implies they certainly have ample gear for the task. It also implies that the "food chain" I guess, is fairly intact and accurate if they are starting with analog masters pulled out of a vault. King Atlantics tomb! With my tech hat on? It only makes sense they'd do a hi res transfer to digital... get a DSD copy at 192/32 bit or something crazy and work from that. That's how most people in the archive business work. Especially with old analog tapes... they're generally "one shot" transfers - they might have to get baked, your dealing with old splices that are falling apart... probably some questionable labeling... No way would you want to handle those original (safety copies anyone?!) tapes more then you had to.
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Aug 10, 2022 18:19:43 GMT -6
Ok that makes sense, if they are only gonna give you a short window to grab a copy. Although for me, if I’m selling audio as analog, I’d bring in my own deck and mult the output… DSD, and Mara machine for example.. and probably one more backup, nagra? You got one chance to preserve the past, new tape is available, Mara machines are there.. I don’t get it.
Except I DO get it if it’s just a phone call “hey send me the file of xxxx track”
|
|
|
Post by bossanova on Aug 10, 2022 18:31:25 GMT -6
Once upon a time MFSL had the “Silver” label which indicated up front that they used a safety copy or a newer remix (the latter being roundly condemned as a misleading bait and switch on the batch of The Who and John Lennon releases being called “Masters” as if they were the original releases). Anything with the Gold label was supposed to be the real deal.
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Aug 10, 2022 18:36:39 GMT -6
Oh wow 🥳
——-
Edit… this topic reminds me of video I came across last year. Kind of long but it shows how different Mastering changes things.. I grew up “knowing” the Wally Traugott pressing. I remember the first time my stepdad played it for me on his HiFi, and the bass being the most smooth thing I’ve ever heard. I was probably 11 years old, it blew me away. As soon as I heard this, even through YouTube, I could tell right away which one I know.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2022 19:17:47 GMT -6
I can only imagine how many people badgered friends to listen to their Mobile Fidelity recordings just to show how much better analog is. Surely "You can really hear the difference" was often uttered.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,956
|
Post by ericn on Aug 10, 2022 19:53:58 GMT -6
Shocked I tell you shocked, ok not really, but people will believe what they want to and honestly did anyone believe any recording since say 87 didn’t have DSP somewhere in the chain? It’s funny, I can’t name names but I remember a well known AE talking about his all analog recording so I asked what did you do to get that reverb, it sure sounds like a PCM70 tiled room? It was.
|
|
|
Post by donr on Aug 10, 2022 20:32:22 GMT -6
I’m an old timer. I’m somewhat nostalgic for non-linearity. I miss the old days of playback systems (and the recording /distribution media preceding,) when you cranked where you were listening up until it started to distort, then backed it down slightly into the sweet spot. Then, viscerally enjoyed whatever spectral or amplitude non-linearities were on their way to your ears, from any source.
Now, if that could be coded into a plug-in, I’d pay dearly.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 11, 2022 8:53:19 GMT -6
What infuriates me is that nobody seems willing to admit that tape deteriorates over time.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2022 9:48:54 GMT -6
Side rant: I say screw vinyl. If you really want vintage analog warmth, Edison cylinders are where it's at. And not those pesky Mobile Fidelity Edison cylinders, either. There's nothing like the sound of good old beeswax. Just remember to draw on the grooves with a green magic marker.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,956
|
Post by ericn on Aug 11, 2022 10:00:17 GMT -6
What infuriates me is that nobody seems willing to admit that tape deteriorates over time. Yet go look at what people are paying for The Tape Project real to real transfers! Of course Bob maybe what we need to do is start selling virtual analog transformers in the metaverse!
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Aug 11, 2022 10:26:03 GMT -6
Oh man I have not looked at collectors prices and these reprint prices.. holy smokes! I need to help my stepdad get his record collection out of storage… first pressings of everything 60’s-80’s.. including stuff from guys in this thread.. mind totally blown right now
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 11, 2022 10:35:22 GMT -6
Ironically, I used to have a tape and an acetate I'd cut from it that started out sounding remarkably identical. After 40 years, the tape sounded quite a bit muddier and worse overall. This was Scotch 201 that has no sticky-shed issue requiring baking and is considered one of the best sounding tapes by many of us. I've long suspected this may be why vinyl has often sounded better than CD reissues made from the same master tape.
One of the most sobering experiences I ever had was hearing an acoustic record player playing acoustic recordings.
As for the green pen, it only works on CDs played on early CD players. According to an engineer at Philips, marking the CD throws it out of balance which makes the servo heat up more causing the crystal to run at a slightly faster speed.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,956
|
Post by ericn on Aug 11, 2022 10:58:14 GMT -6
I’m an old timer. I’m somewhat nostalgic for non-linearity. I miss the old days of playback systems (and the recording /distribution media preceding,) when you cranked where you were listening up until it started to distort, then backed it down slightly into the sweet spot. Then, viscerally enjoyed whatever spectral or amplitude non-linearities were on their way to your ears, from any source. Now, if that could be coded into a plug-in, I’d pay dearly. Yet the SOTA with a Souther Triquartz linear arm I bought still sits here waiting for me to buy a new PSU, loved vinyl, and it’s one of the set ups I always wanted. Thing is digital is just so easy. I mean I’m going to go out in about a 1/2 hour, grab the phone and continue listening to the playlist I’m streaming right now in the car, or I can pick anything from Tidal or I tunes. No vinyl to clean or put away.
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Aug 11, 2022 11:14:18 GMT -6
You know what I do since I’m such a recording nerd? I go to the dollar bin at the record store, pick up literally any vinyl from the 50’s-70’s, could be a musical, soundtrack, or whatever. Usually it’s in absolutely pristine condition. I take home a few of these, the guy at the counter gives me some side-eye ringing up $3. I go home and imagine all the gear used
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Aug 11, 2022 16:35:06 GMT -6
I am aware. I've been trying to make the case....prior to this "revelation", that if you want the best sounding vinyl, you need digital in a lot of cases. Certainly if you want the best sounding RECORDING...you can't make it "AAA". That EVEN if you like the sound of tape and would use it like I would, it STILL wouldn't BE "AAA". that you need to hold people responsible for the results, NOT dictate their tools. Because, frankly, who the FUCK are you to tell me what I should use when you can't even understand that Mofi didn't lie...other than the lie of omission, which is called LITERALLY every commercial EVER. No one EVER has a commerical that says "this is the best bathroom cleaner ever--scrubs your tub clean in an instant--and if you feed it to your dog, they will go into hepatic failure, and if you get it on your clothes it might ruin them." That would no longer be an effective advertisement.
...but, you know--there's so much Babel in the "audiophile" community. Had a guy recently say that Mellencamp went digital for his 1987 record...when I happen to know that there wasn't digital recorders there until there in his proto home studio until the middle 90s...I followed Mellencamp back then...got Mix magazine for a decade+...the reason he said that? The cymbals seemed harsh on the 1987 record. So it must be digital. Had another tell me Henley's Building the Perfect Beast was the start of the digital recording era for him--except you know, it's an album recorded 100% to analog tape. But, the drum machines were digital...the synths were likely even analog for that one...but, because it sounded all "1980s"--it was "digital". Nope.
See, with them...digital=bad. Analog=good. I've tried to explain how you the best sound and "AAA" is contradictory, because SOME things analog DOES do best...and SOME things digital does best...and once you use digital for anything, it's no longer "AAA".
I mean--the Mofi thing...they have a custom tape deck with multiple repro electronics that they take to whatever location the label lets them have the masters...they meticulously find the best sounding bias/alignment/repro for a given piece of tape...and capture THAT...flat...to DSD...and take THAT back to their mastering studio to BEGIN the mastering process, which involves them playing it 100k times in order to get every little move...every little everything dialed in...it's VERY easy to see how that gets better results than they could reasonably get with the actual master tapes--which they couldn't play as many times...it would be trouble to realign and shootout repro heads on a per song basis...which also wouldn't allow them to use first gen for crossfaded tracks...
I've even pointed out that they are holding up Analogue Productions as the competition who is "honest". One of my only AP records is a Sarah McLachlan that says "all analog mastering" on the hype sticker...and I know for a fact is a 48khz RADAR recording. I wasn't deceived--I CHUCKLED at the hype sticker. It's a lovely sounding 45rpm Surfacing. Nicer sounding than the CD....because again--it's from the 48khz and because AP is running through lovely sounding kit--NOT putting the limiter on the original 1997 CD no doubt had...and cutting 45rpm to 200gr vinyl...but, still--same "lie of omission". They ignored that because "who cares about that modern digital recording crap anyway"? 1997=modern? Tee hee. Ok.
Anyway--the whole thing is frustrating. I think Mofi generally does a really nice job....not always...but, usually--on vinyl OR CD or SACD...the now sort of "boycott them" vibe seems very misguided. Lawyers are talking about suing? For what--YOUR not having a clue what goes into the mastering process? For them not CORRECTING to when YOU called it all analog? Even if they DID outright LIE in order to sell you a product...um...you'd want to put out of business a company who has made 40 years of audiophile masters across different formats?
|
|
|
Post by bossanova on Aug 11, 2022 16:54:26 GMT -6
^ I remember this came up ages ago with the Pet Sounds stereo mix, where someone asked Mark Linnett why they were releasing it in hi-res when the remix was 48/16 digital. He replied that he used tube gear during the mastering process, and the hi-res would capture that more accurately. [Corrected above, but I was mistaken: the multis were transferred to 48/16 and he mixed them down on the Western UA tube console with other gear.]
Billy Joel’s Nylon Curtain was recorded to digital but the MoFi for that one used an analog safety master that had been made at the same time as the digital master.
|
|
|
Post by Bat Lanyard on Aug 11, 2022 17:01:08 GMT -6
I only got back into vinyl for the experience of looking over the packaging. I've got a (former kickstarter) Orbit turntable that's no big deal and run it through Sonos. It's just fun to put a record on and try to figure out how long it took the makeup artist to blend in the singer of Vinnie Vincent Invasion's pants into his skin. I dig the lyrics, production credits and all the stupid shit like that from vinyl. Sound-wise, it's fine. And for things like the Rumors reissue, fun to hear complete works as a whole.
That and also when friends are over the record just goes. As Larry Sanders would agree, no clicking around.
|
|